Government flip flops / school closures

Millem · 02-01-2021 10:51pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't mean written stuff, I was referring to recruitment for orals and other practicals such as home ec cookery that involve examiners going out to schools.

I applied for the LCA practical exams in May. Recruitment was a bit later than usual this year. The HCT exams are meant to be on the week beginning 18th May.

History Queen · 02-01-2021 10:51pm

soso02 wrote: »

Spouting BS? Our "leading epidemiologists" have a lot to answer for.

In a population of 5 million, a mere 2,000 passed away WITH covid. The vast majority of these contracted the virus in nursing homes/hospitals, with comorbidities. It is therefore not the public's fault that we are where we are today.

It is not a deathly virus with comparisons to the Spanish flu proving to be inaccurate.
The effects of lockdown after lockdown are devastating.

You realise that restrictions helped reduce the number of cases and deaths? Without them we would be in a worse situation.

Edit: was catching up , see now that this poster has been banned

rainbowtrout · 02-01-2021 10:54pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I can see that for orals but most schools still aren’t allowing singing inside or wind instruments. Music practicals are a problem

An issue that hasn't been sufficiently addressed. The exams are a minor problem in the greater scheme of things (with all due respect). How are students supposed to practice if they can't sing in school, practice in a group if they are singing in a group etc?

rainbowtrout · 02-01-2021 11:00pm

History Queen wrote: »

You realise that restrictions helped reduce the number of cases and deaths? Without them we would be in a worse situation.

Edit: was catching up , see now that this poster has been banned

I'm kinda disappointed, I see I was able to piss off the troll just by existing. :pac::pac::pac::pac:

History Queen · 02-01-2021 11:33pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm kinda disappointed, I see I was able to piss off the troll just by existing. :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Was it lc2020 rereg?

mirrorwall14 · 02-01-2021 11:43pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

An issue that hasn't been sufficiently addressed. The exams are a minor problem in the greater scheme of things (with all due respect). How are students supposed to practice if they can't sing in school, practice in a group if they are singing in a group etc?

Totally agree. And anecdotally a lot of teachers have been told ‘do what you feel comfortable with’ which makes it hard for teachers themselves to be bad guys

Leftwaffe · 02-01-2021 11:56pm

Gonna be a lot of demand in teachers over the coming weeks. Now that we’re not testing close contacts there could be any number of students out at one time for 14 days.

I know in our school we are required to provide material online as well as teach it in the classroom to those who were in attendance. This was fine when there was only a handful out at a time. But I feel the line between learning from home and learning in school is going to become even more blurred over the coming weeks.

Also schools could be facing serious staff shortages too due to the mandatory 14 days isolation.

Smacruairi · 03-01-2021 12:17am

Last summer, most boards of management, while waiting for the DES to get the finger out, would have prepared for all in, all out, and hybrid forms of teaching and learning. They should be ready to rock and roll. In the mean time, I'd advise the best thing to do is to take a leaf out of the DES playbook :

Set expectations ground floor, I mean as low as possible, for remote learning, and then if we have to switch after a circular on a Friday evening, take your time to roll out that preagreed plan. Doesn't matter how good your school plan is, people are going to complain, so just move that ire onto the DES and NPHET for closing the schools,regardless of how right they are to do so, and relax.

They're gonna cancel the junior cert, the leaving is back in play again it seems, it seems that only 6th years and teachers actually care about learning, everyone else just wants childcare, so why bother fretting?

Totally the wrong attitude to have of course, but at this stage it feels like King Canute.

TheValeyard · 03-01-2021 12:48am

Well this year's 6th years are getting totally shafted. People forget as fifth years they lost a lot of time and will be competing with deferred students from this year.

Smacruairi · 03-01-2021 1:29am

TheValeyard wrote: »

Well this year's 6th years are getting totally shafted. People forget as fifth years they lost a lot of time and will be competing with deferred students from this year.

I wouldn't say they're being shafted, they have had more than last years 6th years, with practically everything thrown at them from schools (not the DES mind) to keep them happy.

They are however being intentionally kept in the dark - what is the plan b if they don't do practicals and orals, that should be released before they return to learning so they can focus for the next few months. Deferred students, not as big a cohort as people imagine, but universities have had a year to be able to account for bigger numbers, the same way teachers and students have had a year to get used to remote learning.

The era of excuses, on all sides, is coming to an end. No more anxiety, no more wellbeing, just solutions and moving forward properly, and if systems aren't ready, heads should roll and get someone in place who can carry out that task.

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 1:39am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I wouldn't say they're being shafted, they have had more than last years 6th years, with practically everything thrown at them from schools (not the DES mind) to keep them happy.

They are however being intentionally kept in the dark - what is the plan b if they don't do practicals and orals, that should be released before they return to learning so they can focus for the next few months. Deferred students, not as big a cohort as people imagine, but universities have had a year to be able to account for bigger numbers, the same way teachers and students have had a year to get used to remote learning.

The era of excuses, on all sides, is coming to an end. No more anxiety, no more wellbeing, just solutions and moving forward properly, and if systems aren't ready, heads should roll and get someone in place who can carry out that task.

I'd disagree. Last years sixth years had a normal run at the Leaving Cert until mid March. They had 6 weeks of the government pissing about with scrapping orals and practicals and by hook or by crook exams until it was cancelled. Then it was over. Predicted grades was crap but most have got where they want to go.

This years sixth years had the three months of online learning last year knowing they had to come back this year and sit the leaving cert. Or maybe not. We're told that the Leaving Cert is happening this year, but we know as teachers that no examiners have been recruited yet. We haven't been told how practicals are going to happen. Students are sitting in classes not knowing if we will be sitting down in May to work out predicted grades, and wonder if every class test will effectively count towards their LC.

I'm not for wrapping students in cotton wool, but the uncertainty does not help.

Smacruairi · 03-01-2021 1:56am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd disagree. Last years sixth years had a normal run at the Leaving Cert until mid March. They had 6 weeks of the government pissing about with scrapping orals and practicals and by hook or by crook exams until it was cancelled. Then it was over. Predicted grades was crap but most have got where they want to go.

This years sixth years had the three months of online learning last year knowing they had to come back this year and sit the leaving cert. Or maybe not. We're told that the Leaving Cert is happening this year, but we know as teachers that no examiners have been recruited yet. We haven't been told how practicals are going to happen. Students are sitting in classes not knowing if we will be sitting down in May to work out predicted grades, and wonder if every class test will effectively count towards their LC.

I'm not for wrapping students in cotton wool, but the uncertainty does not help.

Oh I agree, the uncertainty is my bete noire, everyone deserves better, students, teachers, parents. This cowardice of last minute leaks before announcements belies a mistrust in everyone to act responsibly. It's almost as if they don't trust schools to function professionally if they cancel certain aspects (see CBAs for example). However this also engenders a childish adherence to the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the regulation amongst everyone.

For this year's 6th years, uncertainty is there, yes, but should it go remote schools should have better systems ready, despite the lack of support from the DES. That is all I meant. They also entered this year probably thinking they'd be closed by Halloween if the pool in my parents association can be believed, so to get this far is something.

It just feels like we are starting at stage 1 again now, as opposed to continuing with stage 3, which is totally the fault of Norma. People asking is x open, what happens with y, this should all have been dealt with through the first term with established parameters.

Bobtheman · 03-01-2021 10:16am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Oh I agree, the uncertainty is my bete noire, everyone deserves better, students, teachers, parents. This cowardice of last minute leaks before announcements belies a mistrust in everyone to act responsibly. It's almost as if they don't trust schools to function professionally if they cancel certain aspects (see CBAs for example). However this also engenders a childish adherence to the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the regulation amongst everyone.

For this year's 6th years, uncertainty is there, yes, but should it go remote schools should have better systems ready, despite the lack of support from the DES. That is all I meant. They also entered this year probably thinking they'd be closed by Halloween if the pool in my parents association can be believed, so to get this far is something.

It just feels like we are starting at stage 1 again now, as opposed to continuing with stage 3, which is totally the fault of Norma. People asking is x open, what happens with y, this should all have been dealt with through the first term with established parameters.

I have sympathy for Norma. She is barely a year in the Dail. A mistake was made to open up for Xmas. It would have taken a strong backbone to close. Our airports have never closed? Why? Same for off licenses. Why?
So we are where we are. Other nations are the same:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/02/teachers-take-legal-action-as-chaos-grips-englands-schools-plan

Norma is being told what to say. She should tear the script up and say " It's an evolving situation"
That's it. They'd hardly sack her for that.
I don't really think schools will be closed for that long. Perhaps 2-3 weeks. But im still amazed to see bookstores open? You can name others.

wirelessdude01 · 03-01-2021 11:16am

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have sympathy for Norma. She is barely a year in the Dail. A mistake was made to open up for Xmas. It would have taken a strong backbone to close. Our airports have never closed? Why? Same for off licenses. Why?
So we are where we are. Other nations are the same:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/02/teachers-take-legal-action-as-chaos-grips-englands-schools-plan

Norma is being told what to say. She should tear the script up and say " It's an evolving situation"
That's it. They'd hardly sack her for that.
I don't really think schools will be closed for that long. Perhaps 2-3 weeks. But im still amazed to see bookstores open? You can name others.

I have zero sympathy for her. She comes across as having no empathy for teachers(and her having been one up to recently).

As regards bookstores being open(think selling newspapers is considered essential fr the dissemination of information), how the likes of Harry Corry, Harvey Norman or any of the hardware shops need to be physically open is beyond me. They should only be open to allow click and collect, no browsing. Selling Garden plants, carpets and furniture is not essential it this current time.

km79 · 03-01-2021 11:23am

I have no sympathy for her. She had a permanent teaching job but she was more interested in playing the political game . She won and got what she wanted despite being way way too inexperienced for what we needed in an Education Minister at such a crucial time. The worst thing is that in terms of politics she is doing a good job for her party/the govt as she has toed the party line and done their bidding throughout.
I don’t want to see another teacher in as Ed Minister for a long long time.
They are completely different jobs with different skills sets .

rainbowtrout · 03-01-2021 12:11pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I have zero sympathy for her. She comes across as having no empathy for teachers(and her having been one up to recently).

As regards bookstores being open(think selling newspapers is considered essential fr the dissemination of information), how the likes of Harry Corry, Harvey Norman or any of the hardware shops need to be physically open is beyond me. They should only be open to allow click and collect, no browsing. Selling Garden plants, carpets and furniture is not essential it this current time.

Click and collect is the big problem. If effectively means shops are open. I was going to Tesco in Carrick on Shannon on Monday. When I landed at the retail park, the car park was wedged. Yet there was no queue at Tesco (which is what I initially expected). Which means people were in all the other shops, none of which are essential. It was like it was a few days before Christmas. If there are that many people out shopping for non essentials then there won’t be an improvement.

Was out in my local park the last couple of days walking my dogs. It’s 2km from my house. I’ve never seen it so packed. Large groups of families walking around. Lots of Dublin accents and Northern Ireland accents. They’re not all local. I live in Roscommon.

Teach30 · 03-01-2021 12:20pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I have zero sympathy for her. She comes across as having no empathy for teachers(and her having been one up to recently).

As regards bookstores being open(think selling newspapers is considered essential fr the dissemination of information), how the likes of Harry Corry, Harvey Norman or any of the hardware shops need to be physically open is beyond me. They should only be open to allow click and collect, no browsing. Selling Garden plants, carpets and furniture is not essential it this current time.

I agree to a certain extent.
Depends on what your idea of essential is. I’m living with 3 over 77 and desperately trying to move out in order to protect them. Will need carpets, flooring and paint over next few weeks and they are not something you can buy online. Neither is furniture/mattress of which I have none. Can’t financially afford to choose wrong items and then have to reorder down the line. Not a unique situation by any means, plenty of people building houses will need same.

But I’m sure the 89 year old won’t mind if I hang around for another few months.

As for Norma, I dont envy her position however she certainly needs to have more of a presence. I do feel let down by her lack of engagement, in particular over last few days.

Treppen · 03-01-2021 12:27pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I agree to a certain extent.
Depends on what your idea of essential is. I’m living with 3 over 77 and desperately trying to move out in order to protect them. Will need carpets, flooring and paint over next few weeks and they are not something you can buy online. Neither is furniture/mattress of which I have none. Can’t financially afford to choose wrong items and then have to reorder down the line. Not a unique situation by any means, plenty of people building houses will need same.

But I’m sure the 89 year old won’t mind if I hang around for another few months.

As for Norma, I dont envy her position however she certainly needs to have more of a presence. I do feel let down by her lack of engagement, in particular over last few days.

In the scramble for air time between Micheal and Leo I think all the ministers have been pushed into the shade.

Off the top of my head, I can't say who the minister for Agriculture, Justice or Health is! I used to know them all without any hesitation, but they're just not given any visibility any more (or maybe the usual scandal stories from each sector have died down).

km79 · 03-01-2021 12:29pm

Treppen wrote: »

In the scramble for air time between Micheal and Leo I think all the ministers have been pushed into the shade.

Off the top of my head, I can't say who the minister for Agriculture, Justice or Health is! I used to know them all without any hesitation, but they're just not given any visibility any more (or maybe the usual scandal stories from each sector have died down).

Stephen Donnelly is Health . He too is out of his depth completely.

Rosita · 03-01-2021 12:36pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Click and collect is the big problem. If effectively means shops are open. I was going to Tesco in Carrick on Shannon on Monday. When I landed at the retail park, the car park was wedged. Yet there was no queue at Tesco (which is what I initially expected). Which means people were in all the other shops, none of which are essential. It was like it was a few days before Christmas. If there are that many people out shopping for non essentials then there won’t be an improvement.

Was out in my local park the last couple of days walking my dogs. It’s 2km from my house. I’ve never seen it so packed. Large groups of families walking around. Lots of Dublin accents and Northern Ireland accents. They’re not all local. I live in Roscommon.

Yeah, there's a problem with the phrase 'lockdown' in that now covers everything but the current level of restrictions will have limited effect on numbers. Even in late October I spoke to a girl who works in a shop near an industrial area and she said that it was as busy as ever.

Signs on that they got numbers down to 300/400 and no lower before lifting restrictions again in December. They spoke about getting them under 100 but never threatened to achieve that. Varadker's rant which delayed the onset of Level 5 in October didn't help either. Would have given an extra couple of weeks breathing space. But my sense is that the current restrictions are not visibly impactful.

I think attempts to keep the economy open while running restrictions in parallel will in the heel of the hunt prove to have been false economics. One hard lockdown for 4-6 weeks, with the vaccine on the horizon and improving weather conditions might have cracked it in the New Year but they seem to have lost the stomach to do that.

lulublue22 · 03-01-2021 12:40pm

Gavin O Reilly reporting Eamon Ryan as saying may need to reduce exercise limit from 5km to 2km . Schools will be discussed this week but as of now it’s gov intention to open the schools on jan 11th.

wirelessdude01 · 03-01-2021 12:47pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

Gavin O Reilly reporting Eamon Ryan as saying may need to reduce exercise limit from 5km to 2km . Schools will be discussed this week but as of now it’s gov intention to open the schools on jan 11th.

The exercise radius is purely cosmetic. The smaller radius actually means more people in a more condensed area which is counter intuitive.

amacca · 03-01-2021 12:48pm

km79 wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly is Health . He too is out of his depth completely.

Mcentee is justice isn't she? Wasn't impressed by her reaction to the situation in Blanchardstown.

wirelessdude01 · 03-01-2021 12:48pm

km79 wrote: »

Stephen Donnelly is Health . He too is out of his depth completely.

Harris seems to be the defacto minister such is the amount of times he still comments on it

Rosita · 03-01-2021 12:49pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

Gavin O Reilly reporting Eamon Ryan as saying may need to reduce exercise limit from 5km to 2km .

Would love to know the science behind this, as in what's the evidence the 5k causes greater infection spread.

kippy · 03-01-2021 12:54pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The exercise radius is purely cosmetic. The smaller radius actually means more people in a more condensed area which is counter intuitive.

It is, and tbf there's a lot of non-compliance with regulations this time round. The only options are to continue to give people less options where to congregate and mix by enforcing regulations on businesses and public areas - which is probably why schools are a few weeks from opening.

wirelessdude01 · 03-01-2021 1:10pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I agree to a certain extent.
Depends on what your idea of essential is. I’m living with 3 over 77 and desperately trying to move out in order to protect them. Will need carpets, flooring and paint over next few weeks and they are not something you can buy online. Neither is furniture/mattress of which I have none. Can’t financially afford to choose wrong items and then have to reorder down the line. Not a unique situation by any means, plenty of people building houses will need same.

But I’m sure the 89 year old won’t mind if I hang around for another few months.

As for Norma, I dont envy her position however she certainly needs to have more of a presence. I do feel let down by her lack of engagement, in particular over last few days.

We moved into a new build at the start of lockdown one. We bought what we needed to survive online, no need to go in a store to buy a mattress or buy white goods for a kitchen.

Teach30 · 03-01-2021 1:19pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We moved into a new build at the start of lockdown one. We bought what we needed to survive online, no need to go in a store to buy a mattress or buy white goods for a kitchen.

Good for you, hope your enjoying the luxury of it. I’m moving into an old house, no heating, so carpets pretty essential imo. Flooring has been ripped up and kitchen floor just a concrete mess. I’m very hesitant to part with money for a mattress having never tried it.
Paint has been stripped from walls, fine I can do without that. I have no furniture whatsoever so I would consider a trip to purchase these essential. Not good enough to say buy online, it’s a lot of money to waste if not suitable. Chairs needs to be tested for comfort etc.

I’ve been more than careful thus far, making appointments to visit shops and choose is fine by me but they needn’t be fully closed.

Treppen · 03-01-2021 1:35pm

Rosita wrote: »

Would love to know the science behind this, as in what's the evidence the 5k causes greater infection spread.

Some parks in Dublin are jammers, so there's a big difference between 2k and 5k

km79 · 03-01-2021 1:41pm

Treppen wrote: »

Some parks in Dublin are jammers, so there's a big difference between 2k and 5k

In urban locations like Dublin
Where Eamon Ryan can get to and from work on his electric bike

Government flip flops / school closures

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