Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217535#Comment_120217535

I think Warwick is unlucky to miss out. Certainly last season, with his form, I felt he deserved a call up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217659#Comment_120217659

Nah, come off it, that's a ridiculous call. Andrew Warwick is barely URC standard. He is undersized, lacks dynamism and isn't a capable scrummager. He has never looked like being an international prop, and it would just be a waste of a spot in a camp, for a guy who looks highly unlikely to improve further.

I'd much rather invest in the prospect that is Milne than Warwick.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217659#Comment_120217659

I always felt Buckley is unlucky to never get a cap. I think he'd do fine if we needed to call on him.

Milne is a strange one, I'd imagine he must have made a great impression in camp but not sure I'd be very confident throwing him in against France.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217659#Comment_120217659

I think Farrell has a bit of a strange age related discrimination thing going. He'll pick young players with no experience based on promise, or older players with buckets of experience based on historical performances, but won't pick late 20s/early 30's players with decent experience and strong current form but not much at international level.

At 31, Warwick is probably seen as a journeyman. Jean Kleyn is already seen by Farrell as one even though he's 2 years younger and already has been to a RWC

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217725#Comment_120217725

Apart from anything else, isn’t a capable scrummager? He had some excellent scrummaging performances last season against some heavy-weight SA front-rows. But apart from that…

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217034#Comment_120217034

It's about the quality of the players sure, and there are maybe 5 or 6 on that 2011 team that could claim places today but the way we played then and the way we play now means that the 2011 team would be beaten more often than not by today's team. I don't believe it's close in terms of cohesion, game plan, confidence, endurance and even skills. 2011 was a great team but they had one gland slam under their belt, a couple of triple crowns, annihilated on the NZ tour (in 2012), and a terrible world cup record. In the key years 2006 and 07 France pipped them and they fell off the next year. I would take nothing away from them and I thoroughly enjoyed watching that team for years but they were less than the sum of their parts, the current team is more.

As for the players themselves, other than the few still around, in the backs BOD, Kearney (neck and neck w Keenan), Bowe, in the forwards Heaslip, Ferris, SOB, POC and Wallace would be in the picture today but other than POC I'm not sure who would be a dead cert against the BR options available to Farrell. Maybe one of Ferris and SOB are perennials due to their size and athleticism. Maybe DOC is superior to the alternatives now but it's much of a muchness and he played a game quite different to his equivalents. Still, that team playing in the style developed over the last few years and with the standard of coaching in the last decade would be phenomenal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217633#Comment_120217633

Oh what a surprise, you think it's a Munster player who deserves the call up instead.

I absolutely beg to differ when you say Wycherley hasn't put in poor performances. He's had days when he gets absolutely beasted in scrums, and is possibly the worst carrier in Irish rugby this season (7m carried off 25 attempted carries, 0.3 m per carry).

Wycherley also wasn't "extremely good on the Emerging Ireland tour" - none of our props were. The scrums were largely destroyed down there.

Milne was on the same Emerging Ireland tour, so the coaches, seeing both players up close, decided Milne is the better bet.

And before you start talking your "Leinster depth chart" nonsense, it might be worth remembering that the current Ireland forward's coach is none other than Munster ligind Paulie O'Connell, so why exactly he'd have some perceived Leinster bias, versus the logical conclusion of just taking who he and the other coaches is the best player available is a question you might ask yourself.

In reality, none of Milne, Wycherley or any other loose head option is ready for this level. The fact they're even in the discussion is a feature of the injuries we've had, but moreso is a damning indictment of our propping stocks at loosehead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217746#Comment_120217746

Is he? Based on what? He's a middling scrummager, and I wouldn't assume whatever scrummaging ability he has would carry over to international level.

He's a big negative in every other area of the game. A situation where either of them would have to feature against France would be nightmare stuff, but at least Milne is a far more dynamic carrier.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217787#Comment_120217787

He more than held his own against the likes of Malherbe last season. Why do you assume that wouldn’t necessarily carry over to international level?

I thought he was much improved in the loose last season too tbh.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217761#Comment_120217761

The head coach picks the team. POC doesn't decide who is in the squad

Milne has the advantage of being in leinster, Ireland are basically playing Leinsters's game with some very minor tweaks, so Milne is already up to speed. This is why he was called up.

Can you point me to a single thing Milne has done on the pitch that justifies him getting his first Irish cap in the 6 nations against France.

(which would happen if either Killer or Porter picked up an injury between now and Saturday)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217817#Comment_120217817

He's struggled badly in games this season - notably against both Leinster and Munster.

He is not remotely close to anyone's idea of an international calibre loose head prop.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217910#Comment_120217910

No, I can't, and I've made that crystal clear already. None of these guys are ready for this level, and it's a damning indictment of where our depth is at that position that we're even having this conversation.

But, fwiw, I absolutely can't point to what any of the alternatives have done either. If I was ranking Michael Milne, Josh Wycherley, Andrew Warwick and Denis Buckley for the shirt, I would acknowledge Buckley & Warwick are probably the best scrummagers of the 4, but it's the best of a poor bunch by international standards, and they're both too small.

Milne is indisputably the most dynamic player of the 4, and the best ball carrier by some distance. The stats from this season alone bear that out.

When in doubt, Ireland will pick the more athletic, dynamic player. Wycherley is pretty much the opposite of dynamic. He's simultaneously too small and too slow. On 7 occasions this season he hasn't managed to carry for a single metre in a game, and on 2 other occasions he's had 2m or less, plus he's a liability at this point as a scrummager.

If he wasn't a Munster player, there is literally no way you'd be arguing he deserves to be in an Irish squad based on his form this season.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217910#Comment_120217910

The head coach picks the team. POC doesn't decide who is in the squad

So the forward's coach would have no input in your view into the forwards that get picked for the squad?

The fact O'Connell was on the ground in SA with both players during the EI tour, you think his views would be totally disregarded here?

That's right, Andy Farrell, from Wigan, would naturally have a huge bias towards Leinster players.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217489#Comment_120217489

You think Milne should get in ahead of Dooley? Buckley? EOS? Warwick? Riiight.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217633#Comment_120217633

Wycherly is not good enough. Nor is Milne. Wycherly is behind Kilcoyne and Loughman.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217489#Comment_120217489

I thought Blade would get called up once JGP was out. No surprise really, he's next in the rank. He could do a good job..

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218016#Comment_120218016

At least say why you think theyre not good enough? Wycherly isnt behind both of them as for the last run of games hes been in nearly all 23s...

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218065#Comment_120218065

Kilcoyne has been out injured. Loughman is out injured. Wycherly is 3rd choice. Kilcoyne got the call, not Wycherly. If Loughman was available, I think he'd have been picked.

In saying that, I don't think Milne is at the required standard.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217921#Comment_120217921

Loosehead and 10 are probably our weakest positions in terms of depth. So “not remotely close to anyone’s idea of an international calibre loosehead” is kinda meaningless.

You can only pick what’s available to you.

There’s clearly a reasonable argument he is Ireland’s 6th best loosehead.

So when your 2nd, 4th and 5th choice loosehead’s are injured, it follows there’s a reasonable argument for his selection.

Buer

Wycherley has been roasted in the scrum a couple of times this season. He's a good player and has promise but he's not ready for a test call up. Whilst he's not a great carrier, he has some fairly tidy hands and is capable of deft touches in the loose. Popped off one beautiful pass in the EI tour leading to a try, I recall.

Milne isn't ready either but is the beneficiary of being both the type of player that Ireland want to have in the set up and having the natural attributes others don't. He's over a stone heavier than Wycherley and is quite dynamic in the loose on both sides of the ball. He was excellent against Cardiff recently which potentially made him the next cab off the rank (which is 6th choice and break glass in case of emergency territory).

Buckley and Warwick are very much known quantities. They're hardworking and fairly reliable players. Buckley is a more dynamic option, particularly offering a breakdown threat although he's not as prominent in that area as he once was.

Most importantly, Buckley and Warwick are 33 and 32 this season respectively. It's a complete waste of time calling them up as 6th choice when it's highly unlikely they'll be needed.

I would imagine there's little enough between Milne and Wycherley but, given that they have both been in camp with the Irish staff, I imagine they're selecting the player who ticks more boxes right now in terms of what they're looking for. I'd imagine 115kg vs 108kg is a significant part of that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218551#Comment_120218551

Yeah, but the point is there is not much between Milne and Warwick right now. Warwick a better scrummager, but not a difference maker. Milne better at probably every other part of the game, but lacking experience.

Milne just turned 24, he can definitely improve and become a better player. Warwick turns 32 next month and has already reached his ceiling.

There is significant consistency from the Irish coaches in picking in this manner, and, to me it's logical.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218666#Comment_120218666

I get the reasoning for picking Milne. (Younger player, higher celing). And that's what Farrell is obviously going with.

But there's a perfectly reasonable argument for Warwick too (experience, may go better in a one-off game). If someone wants to make that argument, they're entitled to.

If there isn't much between them, but you're writing off Warwick as "Nah come of it, that's a ridiculous call".... to me, that isn't logical.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218690#Comment_120218690

There isn't much between them as scrummagers, in that both would likely struggle if they had to play meaningful minutes in this game. The difference with Milne is he would be significantly better than Warwick in all of the other aspects of play.

In the context of this squad, at this time, it is to me a ridiculous call to suggest a call up for a guy who has never looked remotely close to the level for his whole career.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218711#Comment_120218711

Moving the goalposts slightly, but lets just agree to disagree, FTD...

stephen_n

Warwick has never been involved with Irish squads. Milne and Whycherly have both had more exposure. With training squads and the EI tour. Whatever it is the Irish coaches are looking for. Warwick doesn’t have it. It’s just a demonstration of our lack of depth that he even comes in to the conversation. He had a very good season for Ulster last year but before that, many wouldn’t have been happy for him to be first choice there.

Jump_In_Jack

Not sure if this interview with Tadhg Furlong is already posted but here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA0d8taiYHQ

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96hM-XDm1uk

BOD's take on the current generation.

LRind2008

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217659#Comment_120217659

If Andy Farrell picked Warwick to be called into the Ireland squad over milne hed be a **** moron hahahaha, some opinions are bad but this is laughably bad

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120219874#Comment_120219874

As laughably bad as picking some guy who's played 18 minutes of European cup rugby, not because he's injured, but because he wasn't selected

Someone mentioned Warwick playing poorly against Leinster and Munster. Milne was on the bench when Leinster played Munster and wasn't even brought on for a single minute.

Shows how much confidence Leinster have in him

Pudsy33

Murray makes it, Sheehan does not.