Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

stephen_n · 05-02-2023 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203892#Comment_120203892

Porter was penalized at one scrum for losing his bind.

He was penalized for tackling while on the ground. Which was a bizzare decision. As he slid into tackle and Adam’s jumped over him. Tackling on the ground usually applies to laying on the ground and tackling someone. Like what AWJ was doing at rucks to players without the ball. I don’t think I have ever seen I applied to what Porter did there.

Again the penalty for going in on Williams was more about what happened afterwards. I actually thought Hansen was getting done there. That’s what the AR was indicating. I think Porter got done because it probably would have meant a card if it was Hansen. Porter had a shot at dislodging the ball in the grounding but was a little late. There was nothing dangerous in what he did. It was nothing compared to Wade’s in the Racing game or Multiple ones by Williams through out his career.

It’s complete hyperbole to say Farrell needs to take him aside and have a word with him.

phily2002 · 05-02-2023 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204445#Comment_120204445

I don't mind the penalty for the Williams try once there's consistency for it. If refs penalise all of them fair enough but way worse ones go unpunished. Realistically Porter was never stopping that try so it was needless.

Strange game from Porter, he was brilliant at times but he had a serious braindead period. His hold up stopping the try was unreal play though. Can't imagine he'll be that indisciplined again. He definitely switches off a bit but an easy fix

05-02-2023 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204467#Comment_120204467

Yeah I do think two of them were just really sloppy penalties, but as I said, it’s at least partially mitigated (for me) by how active he is.

He plays almost 70 mins every big game for Ireland, and had one of the highest tackle and ruck involvements of any player on the field yesterday, so when you’re that busy and trying to be aggressive, sometimes you’ll get a bit wrong and get penalised. It wouldn’t concern me at all.

I definitely wouldn’t want him changing his style of play because I feel he’s one of our most impactful forwards.

Dubinusa · 05-02-2023 2:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204445#Comment_120204445

We disagree. A different ref could have sent him to the sin bin.

Dubinusa · 05-02-2023 2:35pm

Porter played well, I'm not disputing that. He's great around the park. I'd say if our lad scored the try and a Welck player slid in late, we'd all have an issue? Not a dirty play but a bit reckless? Wales have done this to our lads before.

stephen_n · 05-02-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204780#Comment_120204780

Have you ever seen a player carded for that? Williams himself has got away with it on multiple occasions including against us in Dublin. I think it was Henshaw he did that day and no penalty. Also he got an English scrum half in the head on another occasion without being penalized. So I’m not sure what precedent three would be for a card. Porters actions weren’t dangerous, he slid in side on. You could argue that they were unnecessary but that was a split second decision.

If it wasn’t for the actions of Biggar and particularly Hansen I doubt there would have been a penalty at all. There was no grounds for a card there as it wasn’t dangerous play.

05-02-2023 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204801#Comment_120204801

Yeah, but we're all capable of distinguishing between a guy sliding in for a cheap shot, and a guy who is trying to get in under a ball that hasn't quite been grounded yet. The latter is indisputably to me what Porter was trying to do here.

The situation was escalated 100% by Dan Biggar (and some of the other Welsh players) who came rushing in and started pushing down on Porter on the ground.

It wasn't reckless play, and he didn't harm Williams in any way.

aloooof · 05-02-2023 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204992#Comment_120204992

He easily could've gotten a yellow for persistent infringements tho (I've seen some sources quote 6, other 7), particularly given how relatively close in proximity they all were. That's Itoje-on-a-really-bad-day territory.

I think he should've been subbed off sooner tbh.

05-02-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205044#Comment_120205044

I watched it back and looked at every penalty - he gave away 6, but one of those was for holding the ball on the deck, so I'd forgive him there. Two were debatable calls - the one for tackling while on the ground (I thought the decision was correct, but others on here have strongly disagreed), and the other was for the slide in to try and prevent the grounding on Liam Williams. So you strip away those 3 incidents, and you're left with one for losing his bind in a scrum, and two ruck infringements.

I know the point you're making around just a sheer accumulation of penalties (and I made the same point myself in the match thread), and he definitely easily could have received a yellow, but I don't think on balance he had a wildly undisciplined game. Two sloppy ruck penalties really - that could happen to any player.

aloooof · 05-02-2023 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205064#Comment_120205064

So that makes it 3 fair penalties, 2 50/50's and 1 for holding on?

I would make the point tho that looking back at just the penalties, the thing this overlooks is any 50/50's where he didn't get penalised. It works both ways.

And whatever way you look at it, that's an extremely high penalty count. Nobody else gave away more than 1.

Dubinusa · 05-02-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204992#Comment_120204992

Agree about Biggar. He amped it up. The try was scored, Porter was late? I can't recall a lad getting carded but, Steff Evans went in hard v one of our lads a while back. Filthy play, imo. I think it's dangerous. Porter probably didn't mean any harm.

05-02-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205099#Comment_120205099

Yeah, it's obviously high. It's 50% of the number he gave away all season, when he was our most penalised player with 12.

But, I do think we have certain players (like him, Beirne, Doris) who are given more license to try and be aggressive in rucks to attempt to win turnover penalties, and because of that are always going to give away more penalties. Those three were our top 3 in turnovers won last year (#1 Doris, #2 Beirne & #3 Porter) and were also top 3 in penalties conceded (#1 Porter, #2 Beirne, joint #3 Doris).

Those two stats are obviously not disconnected.

He's an extremely proactive player for us Porter, with a really high tackle count and ruck involvement count, who also shows up for a lot of carries. He plays on the edge, so there are going to be days when he gets it slightly wrong, but I wouldn't be trying to tame that out of his game just based on a day like yesterday.

Dubinusa · 05-02-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205031#Comment_120205031

I also think he was late and there was no malice. But, the try was scored. He was late and wasn't getting under the ball. My opinion only.

phily2002 · 05-02-2023 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205044#Comment_120205044

Yeah I was saying it at the time, especially with Kilcoyne in good form it was crazy to leave him on so long.

I think Farrell was very slow to use the bench. Beirne was subbed at the correct time as he wasnt great(very rare he has a poor game). But I'd have brought Conan and Kilcoyne on around the 50 minute mark as well with Casey and Byrne shortly after.

We were under the pump second half and he didn't really react to change it. It can't be good for Kilcoyne and Herrings confidence that in as comfy a score you could wish for away to Wales they only get 8 mins when the game was truly dead

aloooof · 05-02-2023 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205141#Comment_120205141

And by contrast Beirne and Doris gave away 0 penalties.

I think it’s pretty generous to label a penalty count that high as “getting it slightly wrong” tbh.

He was lucky not to get sin-binned and should’ve been subbed off sooner imo.

stephen_n · 05-02-2023 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205133#Comment_120205133

That was against McFadden and put him out for about 6 weeks iirc but Porters wasn’t anything like that. I don’t think Williams was impacted that much in the contact. Certainly didn’t seem hurt when he stood up.,

Lil Fred · 05-02-2023 4:35pm

Any injury updates for next weekend?

stephen_n · 05-02-2023 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205141#Comment_120205141

I thought watching live it was only 3 on him. If there was 6 then that is an issue. Even if 3 were questionable that is quite indisciplined.

05-02-2023 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205176#Comment_120205176

Are you deliberately missing the point I made with Beirne and Doris when using last season as a reference point?

My point is, these things will likely balance out. Porter plays a little on the edge, which is going to result in him giving away more penalties than some other players; but equally because of that, he's going to win more turnovers and have more big moments. That's the risk reward, and I think over the course of a season, or his career, he's been on the right side of it.

You keep coming back to the high penalty count, but as I've said, I think it's really two sloppy penalties he concedes. That does fall under the distinction of "getting it slightly wrong" imo.

I think he and Sheehan should have been off sooner too, but not because of the penalty count, rather to keep them fresher for next Saturday.

pickarooney · 05-02-2023 4:54pm

You can mitigate each individual penalty to being something of nothing but when you've given away 4 penalties in under 10 minutes you have to smarten up and not risk any more. The downside clearly outweighs the benefit of playing on the edge at that point.

crossman47 · 05-02-2023 8:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205167#Comment_120205167

I certainly wouldn't have subbed Murray earlier. His defence was excellent and we needed it. Casey was scragged the first time he got the ball. The old dog for the hard road.

lawrencesummers · 05-02-2023 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205167#Comment_120205167

Beirne had a poor game?

Water John · 05-02-2023 8:55pm

Porter will be busy next week with the big boy he'll have to deal with in the scrum.

phog · 05-02-2023 8:55pm

I think Farrell is becoming Ireland's best coach, he has a bit of the people manager that Kidney was good at and a bit of game management that Schmidt was good at. He might not have the list of achievements that Joe has but I think he can bring the team further now.

We're becoming a team that are expected to win rather hope will win.

phily2002 · 05-02-2023 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120206109#Comment_120206109

Yeah, it wasnt a great game for him. He got smashed back a number of times and wasn't his usual menace at the breakdown. He's a class player just didn't go great yesterday

redlough · 05-02-2023 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120206158#Comment_120206158

Farrell has won nothing.

Kidney won a slam and Schmidt was Ireland's most successful coach ever

Schmidt had already moved the team to expected to win.

Farrell needs to win trophies

I think Farrell has done a great job don't get me wrong but he needs trophies in the cabinet. Jones and Pivac got he sack but both of them have managed to win a 6 nations in the last cycle