Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207956#Comment_120207956

What did Joe inherit? :-)

I know plenty of people have an obsession in Ireland to slag off previous coach's which seems to have happened to every single ex coach.

Gatland started the process of turning Ireland more professional

Eddie O'Sullivan managed to move Ireland from the plucky underdogs to a team which was challanging for Triple/6 nations every year

Deccie managed to win a Grand Slam finally

Joe moved Ireland to the next level, multiple 6 nations, Grand Slam, tour wins in Argie & Aus, first win's v NZ, number 1 in World for first time

Farrell has continued that work with a series win in NZ and a Triple crown, I honestly think he would have more only covid kind of screwed up his initial 1-2 years. Keeping Ireland at number 1 for a sustained period

Hopefully Farrell builds on the previous coach's and again moves Ireland forward

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209115#Comment_120209115

Milne has literally just been called up to the 6N squad. Why do you think the RWC would be so different?

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209319#Comment_120209319

With Cian Healy and Jeremy Loughman (Ed Byrne as well) injured Ireland should in theory be calling up their 6th choice loosehead prop to be the 3rd prop in the squad.

I don't think Leinster's 4th choice LH prop is Ireland's 6th choice.

I'd have Buckley, Dooley, Warwick and O'Sullivan ahead of Milne myself. Maybe Wycherley too.

Could it be just a matter of pick a young prop you don't expect to use so as to give him experience of a camp for a few years down the road. Or does Farrell see something in Milne that the rest of don't.

Milne was with Emerging Ireland.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209531#Comment_120209531

I'd have Buckley, Dooley, Warwick and O'Sullivan ahead of Milne myself. Maybe Wycherley too.

All those guys are currently available, right? And Milne is the one called up. He's one more injury away from benching against France. He'll be in camp this week and he'll be in the ground on Saturday. Plenty of guys have jumped pecking orders based on what Farrell has seen in camp.

I wouldn't make any major claims for Milne's ability based on what we've seen but just thought it was odd to say that a guy who's in the Ireland squad right now is "not close to a call up".

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209319#Comment_120209319

Eh... Milne is nowhere near getting minutes . He's probably called up cos he's down the road. He'd be holding tackle bags and fetching snacks.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209613#Comment_120209613

Poor out Buckley has never got a glimpse. He's 30 ish now, so it's probably a dream for him.

I don't think Wycherly ir Milne are close. Maybe Faz sees something. It would be a shock if he did play.

leakyboots

Wycherley hasn't kicked on this season liked I'd have hoped. Still a good bit of a way to go for me.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209912#Comment_120209912

Loughman will be back at the helm soon. After the world cup, he could be a regular international.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209901#Comment_120209901

Again, there are three LH props in the squad, two of whom must be named in the 23. Milne is one tweaked hamstring away from a green jersey, I'm struggling to see where the "nowhere near getting minutes" is coming from.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209901#Comment_120209901

He is one injury away from getting minutes. By your reckoning Kilcoyne was nowhere near getting minutes last week. Prop isn’t a position that’s just there to hold tackle bags.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210291#Comment_120210291

Kilcoyn has been there before. I would be delighted if Milne made it. Are many convinced that's his standing in the packing order? I think he's just not good enough, right now. Would love to be proved wrong.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211282#Comment_120211282

Well Ed Byrne, Loughman and Healy are all injured. So they would probably all be ahead of him if fit. After that it’s him and Whycherly based on the EI tour. Dooley and Buckley have never been involved in anyway so are clearly behind him.

They obviously took a decision that Milne is the next fit cab off the rank. He’s not there to hold tackle bags and for scrum practice as he could very easily end up on the bench for Saturday. Kilcoyne’s injury profile isn’t exactly stellar.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211339#Comment_120211339

Good! That would be a boost for the lad. Even the camp experience will benifit him.

Dubinusa

Ed Byrne is a good player. I don't believe he's international quality. Loughman could be, he's improved a lot and looks a Good scrummager.

E.O.S seems to have fallen off. It's a disappointment. He's fairly young and could make a push. I thought he would be a regular at one time.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120205250#Comment_120205250

Had a little time to look into this further, FTD, which you might be interested in. Going by the stats available from the ESPN site since Farrell started this is how frequently the players you mentioned give away a penalty:

• Porter: every 38 mins
• Beirne: every 78 mins
• Doris: every 116 mins

With regards turnovers, I could only find turnover stats on the 6 Nations site, but similarly, going by that:

• Porter gives away 2.4 penalties for every turnover he wins over 80 mins
• Doris only 0.6
• And Beirne only 0.8

So I'm not really seeing this equivalance / even-out over-the-long run that you suggested.

It'd be interesting to see how his stats fare vs other countries tbh.

(The thing your rankings overlooked was minutes played; Porter had significantly fewer minutes, but still conceded more penalties).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211574#Comment_120211574

Obviously Porter's game on Saturday is heavily skewing those numbers; he gave away half as many penalties as he did in 8 games last season in 80 minutes. He's also in a position where he'll get pinged for more penalties as a loose head prop (and a guy who has transitioned position twice effectively in the last few years) for scrummaging, so I suspect those penalties also create a skewed picture.

Beyond the stats though, I don't get what your actual point is here?

Porter had a bad day on Saturday and gave away a few sloppy penalties.

I said as much in my first post on this, and a few times since, and the player himself said as much. Even on a day though where he was poor, he saved a try with a brilliant intervention, won a penalty in the scrum and was incredibly active for 70-odd minutes, making 14 tackles. He is heads and shoulders above every other Irish player in his position, and is one of our strongest jackalling threats in the pack.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213335#Comment_120213335

Obviously Porter's game on Saturday is heavily skewing those numbers;

It’s not; even if you omit the Wales game, he’s giving away a penalty every 45 mins.

Beyond the stats though, I don't get what your actual point is here?

The point is, his discipline isn’t as good as you were making out.

We’re a team that’s particularly good at avoiding cards and keeping 15 players on the pitch. And I feel Porter was lucky to escape a yellow at the weekend.

I’m just pointing out that the stats suggest it’s an area of the game that Porter could improve, or else it could be costly in future.

phily2002

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213459#Comment_120213459

I'd say the scrum makes up a lot of those penalties. He gets pinged a lot in the scrum. I don't think his open play discipline is an issue however it was pretty poor on Saturday. Comparing him to Dorris or Beirne without taking out the scrum penalties doesn't paint an accurate picture.

I can't imagine he'll repeat that many penalties again, Saturday wasn't his normal. If it starts happening more then I'd start to get worried but it's not something you'd have been worried about pre Saturday

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213523#Comment_120213523

6 penalties wasn't normal for him but equally for Porter to be topping the penalty count was normal, unfortunately. He is the the Irish player who gives away penalties most frequently. (Even excluding last Saturday, the stats are pretty clear on that).

It could well be down to scrum penalties. But by contrast, Furlong gives away a penalty every 90 mins, and Sheehan every 146 minutes.

I can't say I historically remember it being an issue for him, but in his last 6 Tests he's started (going back to the 1st NZ Test), he's given away 17 penalties. So it does seem to be happening more frequently recently. My worry is refs will pick up on it and start carding him.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213779#Comment_120213779

I'd say if you ran the numbers , the loosehead prop accounts for the majority of Scrum penalties.

It's just the nature of the position - They are the most visible player in the front row at the scrum and as such will tend to be given the blame for the scrum collapse more often than the T/H or hooker.

letsbefair

So negative, he's one of our best players, he scored against the blacks, makes amazing tackles, unbelievable line out lifter, one of the fittest guys on the team, always up with play. So he gives up a few penalties, he knows that and will work on it.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209263#Comment_120209263

i think the last few coaches stayed a little too long and that colours many people's views on them. kidney acknowledged in 2009 that a large part of the grand slam was down to work EOS started. people are down on kidney in general but a large part of why sexton is the player he is today is down to the development time at international level he was given in his early career

ersatz

Joe v Farrell is threatening to become the Sexton v Rog debate of our time. Joe built on more than a decade's worth of progress before him and Farrell's tenure is built on the shoulder's of what Joe did. Even down to new player's expectations going into camp, the mindset of expecting to win everything is already set. But it's also important to note the quality of players we have at our disposal now compared to even 5 years ago. The debate over our best back row combo involves names that would walk onto most international teams, Doris, Beirne, Conan, VdF, POM and a few others like Degan and McCarthy who aren't far away, the Front row with Porter, Tadgh, Sheehan and Kelleher compares well to any other, Sexton is arguably playing some of the most composed and influential rugby of his career, as is Ringrose, then players like Lowe, Keenan, Hansen and a handful of other backs really are a class above anything we've ever had as a squad of players, individual ballers from the past notwithstanding. I believe that any team from the current top 25 players would demolish any Irish team we've ever fielded handily. A great coach should be getting results with these players.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120216415#Comment_120216415

Not really

The 2011 team was an incredible team and should have gone further in that competition

Look at the list of names in this squad, in bold you could say are the stars

Props: T Buckley (Sale), T Court (Ulster), C Healy (Leinster), M Ross (Leinster), R Best (Ulster), S Cronin (Leinster), J Flannery (Munster). L Cullen (Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), D Ryan (Munster). S Ferris (Ulster), J Heaslip (Leinster), D Leamy (Munster), S O'Brien (Leinster), D Wallace (Munster).

Backs: (14)

Full-backs/wings: R Kearney (Leinster), T Bowe (Ospreys), K Earls (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster), G Murphy (Leicester), A Trimble (Ulster)- who had an exceptional tournament from memory. Centres: G D'Arcy (Leinster),B O'Driscoll (Leinster, capt),P Wallace (Ulster). Fly-halves: R O'Gara (Munster), J Sexton (Leinster). Scrum-halves: I Boss (Leinster), C Murray (Munster), E Reddan (Leinster).

jacothelad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217034#Comment_120217034

In 2011 Reddan was vastly superior to Murray then and ROG was halfway down the slippery slope.

Lil Fred

Murray and Sheehan out for Saturday

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209115#Comment_120209115

So not close to a callup, that he was actually called up.

Will he make the 23?

Well nobody thought Blade would have been in an Irish 23 against France this week, but looks likely now.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120209901#Comment_120209901

If Farrell is calling people into the 6 nations squad because they're 'down the road' that's a shocking sign of how he approaches his selection policy

Although given the people who he has leapfrogged, it's looking increasingly likely that the Leinster depth chart is the Irish depth chart unless there's a clear standout from another province

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217515#Comment_120217515

Who do you think should be in there ahead of him so, given that Loughman and Ed Byrne are injured?

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217535#Comment_120217535

Well there's a young fellah called Josh Wycherley who is the same age as Milne, and has already scrummaged for 201 minutes against the biggest French packs in the Heineken cup, compared with Michael Milne, who played.... 8 minutes against an already beaten Racing team

if I added up all of Wycherley's minutes in the Champions cup, not just the french teams, he's hugely more experienced and has not put in many poor performances despite his age and being consistently thrown in at the deep end. Those performances included starting a drawn knockout European rugby game against Toulouse, arguably the best team in Europe this year.

Wycherley was also extremely good in the Emerging Ireland tour, so it's a little bit ridiculous that Milne was called up to the Irish squad ahead of Josh