Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171864#Comment_122171864

Agreed, the post you quoted has me saying he was good for Irish Rugby. I agree rugby is in a much better place than when I used to watch it on B&W one channel TV.

This isn't me thinking/hoping that we'd do better, it's the IRFU themselves who set out their strategic plan. They haven't met their own KPIs in that plan

Both statements can be correct.

Also, the IRFU instigated this review and recommended changes so they themselves have seen failures and want to address them.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171671#Comment_122171671

Everyone except the player who gets bumped out of the squad after years of preparation for the Olympics in favour of a player arriving (back) at the last minute.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172033#Comment_122172033

Would it be any different for a player who doesn't make the 15s World Cup Squad?

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172033#Comment_122172033

Fair comment. Who was the French 7s player bumped out of their squad to make room for Dupont ?.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172033#Comment_122172033

Think back to Toner not making the 2019 RWC because Joe went with someone else, very last minute.

Dubinusa

Differing opinions!!! Lots of DN fans here. I'm happy that ye all think he was a success! My opinion is he wasn't as successful as he should have been. He was imo, a mixed bag. I'm hoping Humphreys does well.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172033#Comment_122172033

Not great for him admittedly but this is competitive sport, it’s the nature of it.

Dubinusa

Keenan should be playing for Leinster. I wish him well. I think it's ****. Just an opinion.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172134#Comment_122172134

It's not like only the same 12 irish players go to every 7's tournament and one of these will be forced to miss out..

There is a panel of about 20 and only 12 or 13 get to compete in the 7s tournaments .

12 players will get to the Olympics. Some players who have been invovled in tournaments this year are going to miss out.

A fringe player will most likely miss out. They've had a chance to stake a seat on the plan for the last while if they didn't bail down their place that's not Keenans fault.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172171#Comment_122172171

It's not like the same 34 players go to every 6Ns squad, Summer tour, Autumn tour, some people drop in, some drop out BUT ask Toner how he felt to be dropped from the 2019 RWC squad. I wouldn't have classed Toner as a fringe player. Look back on this very forum, how many posters had Toner staying at home when making squad lists.

And in case anyone thinks otherwise, I'm delighted for Hugo, he's one of my favorite players in Ireland and I delighted for him.

Clegg

Bundee Aki wins Players Player of the Year

https://twitter.com/RugbyPlayersIRE/status/1793404898513408507?t=PQksic4XnfzTduN5SAROWg&s=09

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172134#Comment_122172134

I don't have a problem with Toner getting dropped for the WC, the problem I had was the player he was dropped for was a disaster and I had a good idea he would be prior to the WC.

Did anyone get upset when Big Joe came from nowhere and got into the WC squad in 2023?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172154#Comment_122172154

You said he accomplished little and was a failure, now he is a mixed bag.

If Humphreys can even equal his record from a men's 15's point of view he will be a success.

Never mind the 7s men and womens success Ireland has had.

Womens 15s is an issue and it's not a short term fix, in reality the changes been made now should be to help in 10-20 year time

leakyboots

Bundee is an interesting one… just turned 34. It's hard to think he'll be as effective as he can be next season and I feel the trajectory won't be anything else but downwards soon just because of his abrasive style. Maybe he'll maintain his current level of form but I do wonder when looking beyond him… who is going to replace him? He's been comfortably our best centre in recent years

Lowe and him are our physical presence in the backs and both are pushing on (I know Lowe is only 32 soon but he has his health issues). Henshaw has a lot of miles under his clock too. Big Stu is 32 in August.

I just think it makes for interesting pondering in terms of the style of game we play that a lot of the current more physical cabs on the rank are moving towards their twilight years.

Second row, back row, half backs… I think we're well stocked and you can see a decent succession plan with the players coming through. I'm not seeing it at centre (yet)

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172214#Comment_122172214

Deservedly

Dubinusa

He is a failure. He's done some good with 7's. But he never got to his goals. He probably stayed too long. If you all think he transformed the landscape, good. I'd grade him a C.

Dubinusa

Women's success? Are u serious?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172121#Comment_122172121

To me it's similar to the England forward who missed the 2015 world cup to accommodate Sam Burgess.

I suppose it's not possible to say who exactly that was, like with the 7s player Dupont replaced.

Dupont at least played the required qualifiers and could theoretically have not made the squad if he'd played badly. I don't see how Keenan could get picked without having played those same required tournaments but maybe I've misunderstood how that all works.

The Toner situation is not comparable. He was dropped from the WC squad because Schmidt reckoned he'd cop a hefty suspension from a citing that was due just after the selection deadline and Kleyn, who had just become qualified, was the next best choice.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

He was dropped from the WC squad because Schmidt reckoned he'd cop a hefty suspension from a citing 

This was a complete nonsense from Joe, several months after the fact. No one really knows what was behind it but it wasn’t this, he just decided he wasn’t bringing Toner and that was it.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172154#Comment_122172154

You can literally say that about practically anything or anyone in sport or life.

Irish rugby as a whole is in a far better place now compared to 10-15 years ago.

Like, what exactly was he not successful at? By no means has he got everything right, or has every target been achieved, but that's not an outright indication of failure either.

It's easy to fire shots from the sidelines when you don't have to take responsibility for a decision made, or the ramifications of it.

Ultimately a lot of areas of the game are in far better position now compared to 10 years ago. DN, IRFU have made mistakes, got things wrong along the way but have you seen the state of other sporting bodies in this country?

50HX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172195#Comment_122172195

Something else happened there imo

Joe & Dev had words or fell out over something, v v strange at the time

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

Keenan is eligible if he plays in the two rounds of the European grand prix series or whatever rugby Europe call their 7s series these days..

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171780#Comment_122171780

"Irish rugby was really sh*t 30 years ago, therefore we should be happy with failure now"

Pretty lame argument if you ask me

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172657#Comment_122172657

"Irish rugby is at it's best point than it ever had been before"

Pretty strong argument if you ask me.

It's all a matter of perspective and those who are miserable will only see misery.

Former Former Former

Let's look at the IRFU's key targets for men's rugby from 2018-2023. I don't really follow 7s so can't speak to it.

1. World Cup semi-final or better in 2019 and 2023 - let's come back to that…
2. 2 or more Six Nations titles - we won three, including two GS; target exceeded.
3. Consistently be ranked in the top 3 teams in the world; target exceeded
4. Provincial teams consistently in knockout stages of European Cup; target met
5. 2 or more European titles - well, we won one and got to three more finals, I think that's a target met.
6. 2 or more Pro 14 titles - we won five; target exceeded.

So we smashed most of our goals, the assertion that we failed to meet our KPIs is absolute nonsense.

But the World Cup semi-final eluded us. Was Nucifora to blame?

I think for 2019, we can lay some of the blame at his door for sure. It was becoming apparent from 6N 2019 that things were going a bit awry and as Joe took on more and more responsibility on himself, maybe Nucifora should have stepped in to get things back on track. So yes, he missed a step here, but the 2019 RWC was the year after Irish rugby's greatest ever year, so it was understandable that he'd have hoped things would right themselves.

For 2023, we entered the tournament as one of the favourites and justifiably so, and continued to back that up in the pool stages. We had a fit and firing squad that took the field as bookies favourites to dump the All Blacks out. Nucifora's job was to get us prepared for this moment - anything that happened in the subsequent 80 minutes was completely out of his hands so blaming him for that defeat is absolutely insane.

Likewise, the Ireland critics will tell me that the target was two European Cups, not one win and a load of runner-up spots. Again, did Nucifora trot out onto the pitch and make Leinster squander two leading positions in 2022 and 2023?

The guy was an amazing success. That IRFU could keep a straight face while saying we're going to be one of the top three teams in the world was unimaginable to most of us when we started watching Ireland.

That he is so despised in certain quarters and still stuck it out for a decade is just a further indication that he was exactly the man for the job.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172469#Comment_122172469

The ban had nothing to do with Toner decision

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172384#Comment_122172384

Jamie Osborne is is 6'4 and a serious unit for a 22 year old, can slot in at 12 or 13. Hugh Gavin looked like a big talent for the 20s too, similar stature. Not sure we have a Bundee type stockier player though

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173131#Comment_122173131

Jude Postlethwaite is 6ft 4in and 100kgs or so too.

Amongst academy players Fionn Gibbons is a huge unit (6ft 4in, 100kgs) but believe he is on the way out at Munster.

Interested Observer

I'm enjoying these completely and utterly contradictory views that some individual posters hold:

1. Nucifora has favoured Leinster above other provinces, paid for all their stars, let them have this massive squad etc

2. Nucifora is also somehow responsible for Leinster not winning more European Cups

Clegg

Jasper Wiese has been banned for this tip tackle and is suspended for the SA/Ireland test series.

The Boks will have a strong squad regardless, but I think they're without Kitschoff, Willemse and now Wiese.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1793568949235523958?t=fPUy0fSET9K2zdGtCVjHsg&s=09