Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037503#Comment_122037503

And, fwiw, while every fan of every team wants to see their players earn international caps etc., we're all fans of the Irish team first and foremost, and every single Irish fan would welcome a scenario where the Irish team is not so reliant on Leinster.

I don't think you can speak for everyone here. And this touches on one of the ramifications I was talking about.

If the trajectory of Leinster's dominance continues, and the system unintendedly perpetuates that dominance, will fans of the other provinces start to become more disenfranchised? Some would argue that's happened already.

We had 16 Leinster players in the Ireland 23 during the 6 Nations. Now look at the age profile of the 3 Centrally Contracted players not at Leinster; Aki 34, Beirne 32 and Henderson 32. We also have POM, 34 coming off a CC.

It's not inconceivable we could see a 23 with say ~20 Leinster players in the 23. At what point do fans stop seeing themselves as "fans of the Irish team first and foremost" and starting seeing it as "Leinster in green"? I daresay some feel that way already.

And if increasing numbers of fans start to feel that way, that in turn could have further unintended consequences for the health of rugby within those provinces.

Not to go all "inception" here, but I honestly don't understand how you don't understand the "griping".

Former Former Former

Central contracts were only intended to do one thing - keep the best players in Ireland.

This is going back to the late 90/early 00s when there were real issues about keeping players here. With the subsequent success of the provinces and the thriving of the pro game, this is now less of an issue, and CCs are now essentially an accounting exercise.

On that basis - there is simply no system you can put in place where you pay international players what they are worth without Leinster getting the lion's share of that money. You could give out another ten CCs, and probably five or six would go to Leinster players. You could revert to everyone being on a provincial contract, but again, unless you're paying some guys less than they're worth and others more than they're worth, Leinster come out on top.

What people are asking for - even if no has actually used these words - is a quota of CCs per province, regardless of whether players at those provinces are actually good enough to merit one.

We can certainly do that, but it absolutely does not fix the underlying issues.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037503#Comment_122037503

The issue I see with this though is that if the IRFU look at this and decide to take action - current fans of Munster and Ulster mightn't like the solution.

Depends on what the solution would be I think. They could take the 12 Central contracts and have 3 for each province, meaning Leinster would effectively lose 6 players to the other provinces. As a Munster fan I'd see this as a bad idea. Primarily because you need players to want to play for a particular team and not be forcing them into anything if we want to get the best out of them. Also why would anybody join the academies of the other 3 provinces if some Leinster player is only going to get priority

In the short term I think it should be a condition that Centrally Contracted players play every inter-provincial game in the regular URC season. In the short term this means Leinster will absolutely crush the other 3, and I accept that. In the long term it means provincial players will be regularly playing the best of the Irish teams and will probably learn more than they would playing second string sides

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037503#Comment_122037503

while every fan of every team wants to see their players earn international caps etc., we're all fans of the Irish team first and foremost

Based on the day-in day-out criticism of Ireland and the Ireland coaches on this forum, this is demonstrably false - and all this at a time when we have never been more successful.

Large numbers of posters here are either ambivalent towards Ireland or actively want them to fail. Only a few have actually said this, but it is absolutely the case for a significantly larger number.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122036739#Comment_122036739

D'Orce cant stand Nucifora.

and still cant finish sentences properly "But…..I….think…………..it….is…..a…………….systematic…problem….in………Irish rugby."

I persevered and listened to the end.

Yes he still cant stand Nucifora (prob after been laughed out of a press conference by Nucifora in 2000)

And he didn't even offer a suggestion of what should change with the Central Contracts.

"Should 32 year old JGP get a central contract?"

"Yes 100%"

I agree. Doesn't everyone?

His mangled and regurgitated cake analogy. Good God!

"Is the lack of investment in the club game a provincial responsibility or an IRFU responsibility?"

"Ah listen….I dont……I dont know."

Empty head

His points are very interesting.

Maybe I missed something? Genuine Qs. The blood coming from my ears prob blocked it out.

Finochet

Constructive, considered and well thought out post. Much food for thought.

Hard not to think that a downward spiral is very difficult to reverse

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037597#Comment_122037597

I had pulled stats on this previously that I think showed just over 20% of all pro players in the country (incl academies) had come through two schools - Blackrock & St Michael's. I wouldn't imagine this has changed massively as last year's Leinster Academy intake of 8 players was split 4 Blackrock, 3 St Michael's and 1 Newbridge.

That can't be just population though. While Blackrock is a big school (it's where I went to school), at c. 1,100 students, it's not so big as to justify it's disproportional production of rugby players. There is boarding, but it's not a massive component (around 120 boarders or so I think), and while they do get some people from further afield who go there for rugby purposes (Joey Carbery and Jeremy Loughman both from Athy as prime examples of guys who went for senior cycle), these guys are very much the exception.

In reality - the bulk of players produced are from a relatively short locale near the school. It's obviously an area of a good sized population, and it definitely tends towards a wealthier socio-economic background, and there is obviously a very strong and deep rooted rugby culture, but it's still illogical just how many great international quality rugby players come from there.

There isn't something in the water there - it's just a combination of a strong and competitive rugby culture, access to players, very good facilities and very good coaching. That model has to be replicable to some extent elsewhere.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037620#Comment_122037620

Yeah, everything you'd outlined is absolutely a possibility - but the target of the griping is entirely misdirected.

This discussion is all about Leinster like Leinster is the problem, when the problem is in Munster & Ulster. That's the point that needs to be acknowledged here.

This discussion has been sparked this week across multiple fora and other platforms because of the announcement of other CCs for Leinster and the signing of an NIQ (which is utterly irrelevant to this topic), when the roots of the issue have been apparent for some time.

Ultimately the IRFU are responsible for the game across the whole country, but in practical terms this is cascaded down to local branches to manage at this level, and those are the people who haven't pulled their weight here.

Fans might start to get annoyed with it - but to me that's a stupid and irrational response. The best players, by and large, are picked for the national team. We keep going around in circles here, but ultimately the only solution here is for Munster and Ulster to significantly improve their player production.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037654#Comment_122037654

I can't see how you think your second point there fundamentally improves anything. The selection of CC players (or players subject to the Player Management protocols, likely the same thing) already comes with a lot of conditions attached. This would be an unnecessary and likely impractical additional one to that.

Leinster already have a very strong track record against the provinces in interpros for the past decade or so, and attendances at these games aren't an issue - so don't see how this improves things.

Forcing Leinster centrally contracted players to move to other provinces would be a retrograde step. It doesn't improve Ireland - just spreads our playing base out more. The players don't want it and wouldn't like it, it would dilute provincial rivalries and it would actually just impede the ability of all provinces to succeed. We'd then have four decent provinces, none of which would likely be capable of winning in Europe (and bringing in the associated revenue those home knock outs etc bring to the IRFU pot).

I've said it about 50 times now - but the only solution is the other provinces improving their player production, but that's not a short term fix.

AdamD

I can understand the argument that with the number of CCs and international players, Leinster should not be signing 2 or 3 NIQs. But beyond that I'm not sure what other changes people want

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037849#Comment_122037849

I've repeatedly said the system, tho unintended, is the problem.

I've repeatedly acknowledged the problems in Munster & Ulster.

If Leinster can only afford the NIQ signing because of the new imbalance of central contracts, that absolutely is relevant.

Fwiw, I typed all of the above before I got to this:

Fans might start to get annoyed with it - but to me that's a stupid and irrational response. 

Why would anyone bother engaging further…

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037895#Comment_122037895

I'm not calling your engagement with this a stupid and irrational response - I'm referring to "fans" who are claiming they don't support the Irish team because it doesn't have enough players from their province in it stupid and irrational, and I stand by that.

It's not the case that Leinster can only afford the NIQ signing because of the imbalance of CCs - Leinster generate a lot of revenue and have previously had external investment.

They've had expensive NIQs previously, including at times when they had far fewer CCs, so it absolutely isn't the case to say that they can only afford Jordie Barrett now because the CCs.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037932#Comment_122037932

You're dismissing people who have a difference of opinion to you as "fans" and calling them "stupid and irrational". It's fair to say we're not going to agree on that. I don't agree with that take either, but I'm not going to belittle them.

Fwiw, I don't think it's at all accurate to say Leinster had expensive NIQ singings previously to the stature / marquee-nature that they will have next season.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037963#Comment_122037963

Well really only Jordie Barrett is the marquee signing next year - and we already know he actively sought out this move, and turned down more money elsewhere to facilitate it. Barrett likely costs less all in than the guy he's replacing when you compare the tenor of the deals etc.

RG Snyman wanted to remain in Ireland, and given how much gametime he's missed in the past 5 years or so, it's almost impossible to think of him as a top tier NIQ at this point to me.

I would argue that Brad Thorn and Rocky Elsom were signings of a similar stature to Barrett. Thorn was arguably the best second row in the world at the time.

I'm not dismissing those people simply because they have a difference of opinion with me.

I'm dismissing anyone, from any province, who turns around and says they don't / won't support Ireland simply because there aren't enough of their favourite players on the team as irrational, short sighted and childish. Entirely your choice to agree with that or not.

phog

So fans that have a different opinion to another poster, hate Andy Farrell, hate Ireland or are stupid and irrational.

Way to go to have a discussion in this place

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038019#Comment_122038019

Here's the point; Leinster didn't have Thorn and Elsom at the same time. (And fwiw, at the time Elsom signed, I don't think he was considered to be at the level that Barrett and Snyman are today).

I suggest we leave it at that, FTD - I can understand your point of view, but you can't understand mine - and move on.

custom_build

"Fwiw, I don't think it's at all accurate to say Leinster had expensive NIQ singings previously to the stature / marquee-nature that they will have next season."

Perhaps not, but Munster and Ulster have a legacy of these marquee signings. Which would disprove your CC slant.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038046#Comment_122038046

What's not constructive to discussion is your little "thinking out loud" pieces like this, which while not quoting someone are clearly aimed at them. If you have something to say, then say it.

I quite clearly said I'm not criticising anyone for having a different opinion to me, that's entirely their prerogative. But it's entirely my prerogative to say I have zero respect for any so called Irish fan who is claiming they don't support Ireland just because their favourite players aren't getting picked.

You are free to disagree with that if you want to.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038061#Comment_122038061

It's all well and good claiming I'm not understanding your viewpoint, but it's not fair or accurate. I've engaged with you, and acknowledged the points you're making that unquestionably the disparity exists, and I'm agreeing that I don't think the current situation is desirable for the IRFU.

Beyond that though, you're not proposing anything resembling an alternative approach or a solution, you're just highlighting the same issue over and over again.

Do you accept the point that problem here is primarily of Ulster Rugby and Munster Rugby's making?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038094#Comment_122038094

Claiming? You literally said as much:

I can't understand the griping though around a system though that simply allows Leinster to retain the players they produce.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038111#Comment_122038111

Yeah, well obviously we don't agree on every aspect of this.

As others have pointed out - one way or another, that cohort of players are going to be amongst the highest paid players in the country. The CCs are effectively an accounting exercise and whatever way you dress it up, Leinster are going to continue to have the highest wage bill of the four provinces if Leinster continue to produce the best players and have the bulk of the international squad.

You're acting like we just woke up Monday morning and found ourselves in this situation, rather than acknowledging that Munster & Ulster have been sleepwalking towards this very scenario for around 15 years now.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038067#Comment_122038067

And they did so at a time when the rest of their squad was significantly cheaper than the rest of Leinster's squad.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037876#Comment_122037876

I can't see how you think your second point there fundamentally improves anything. The selection of CC players (or players subject to the Player Management protocols, likely the same thing) already comes with a lot of conditions attached. This would be an unnecessary and likely impractical additional one to that.

The problem is that over the Christmas period for example there's 3 interprovincial games and 4 European ones. The priority for the teams is to go all-out for Europe and half-arsed for the other 3. This results in weaker matches no matter what way you look at it. The priorities here should be reversed. Stronger interpro games make the 4 provinces stronger which in turn makes the national team stronger. I wouldn't even be thinking about gate receipts as there is no issue there

Forcing Leinster centrally contracted players to move to other provinces would be a retrograde step. It doesn't improve Ireland - just spreads our playing base out more. The players don't want it and wouldn't like it, it would dilute provincial rivalries and it would actually just impede the ability of all provinces to succeed. We'd then have four decent provinces, none of which would likely be capable of winning in Europe (and bringing in the associated revenue those home knock outs etc bring to the IRFU pot).

I fully agree for the record

I've said it about 50 times now - but the only solution is the other provinces improving their player production, but that's not a short term fix.

You're correct. And if money grew on magic trees or the other 3 provinces had the resources or even the subsidies that Leinster are given by the IRFU this would be a lot easier.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038126#Comment_122038126

You're acting like we just woke up Monday morning and found ourselves in this situation, rather than acknowledging that Munster & Ulster have been sleepwalking towards this very scenario for around 15 years now.

I've literally acknowledged this a number of times. You've repeatedly mischaracterised what I've been saying.

• "Nobody queries [the disparity]". - I was literally replying to someone who queried the disparity.
• "we're all fans of the Irish team first and foremost". - You don't speak for everyone.
• "This discussion is all about Leinster like Leinster is the problem" - I've repeatedly said the system, tho unintended, is the problem in the discussion.
• "…when the problem is in Munster & Ulster." - I've repeatedly acknowledged the problems in Munster & Ulster.
•  "…the signing of an NIQ (which is utterly irrelevant to this topic)," - It's not irrelevant if it can be afforded directly because of the new distribution of CC'ss. They're literally directly linked.
• "[The problem originates with Munster and Ulsters development] is the point that needs to be acknowledged here". I've repeatedly acknowledged this.
• "It's all well and good claiming I'm not understanding your viewpoint, but it's not fair or accurate". You literally said you didn't understand my viewpoint. And you characterised it as "griping".

We're at the point where I've repeatedly acknowledged that I've repeatedly acknowledged what you want me to acknowledge.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038135#Comment_122038135

Do we know that definitively?!

There have definitely been times when Ulster and Munster have had plenty of NIQs alongside a squad full of other internationals.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038201#Comment_122038201

But I don't necessarily accept the point that stronger interpros make the 4 provinces stronger. They play a lot of games over the course of the season - I don't see the argument that forcing the best players to play in these specific games necessarily improves the quality of the players they're playing against.

You're correct. And if money grew on magic trees or the other 3 provinces had the resources or even the subsidies that Leinster are given by the IRFU this would be a lot easier.

Is that what is being claimed here? That Munster and Ulster don't have the resources to invest in player development pathways? Because over the past 15 years both have been able to find the cash on numerous occasions to spend on expensive NIQs. Wouldn't a lot of that money have been better spent?

If that's the case - then it's incredibly short sighted decision making and is the direct cause of where we now find ourselves.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038203#Comment_122038203

A central tenet of your argument repeatedly is that Leinster can only afford the NIQs because of the CCs and there is no evidence to support this.

Leinster generate significant revenue - they have gate receipts c. 5k per game higher than the next teams in the URC, have frequent home knock outs in Europe, and the other usual revenue gathering means. They also have the capacity to secure external cash for some of these signings potentially too.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038061#Comment_122038061

Elsom was Australia's player of the year when he arrived (back when they actually had good players), he was a huge signing and way ahead of the RG Snyman of 2024.

We also had world-cup winner CJ van der Linde that season, he turned out to be a crock but he was world-class on paper. And world-cup winner Chris Whitaker, Felipe Contempomi, ISA NACEWA and Stan Wright. Jaysus.

But tbh, Snyman is not the marquee player he's made out to be, he's not even the player he was when he joined Munster. Would he start in a fully-fit Munster XV? Maybe. In a fully fit Leinster XV? Maybe. That's not a marquee player.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038304#Comment_122038304

Look, Leinster have obviously had good NIQ players over the years. I just don't think they've ever signed them as the same profile as Snyman and Barrett in the same season. While simultaneously having a complete stacked squad.

It's possible I'm being unfair on Elsom there, and there's some recency bias at play with Snyman and Jordie Barrett.

Isa was probably the best NIQ player who has played in Ireland in terms of what he brought to Leinster and what they got out of him. But I think it's entirely fair to say he wasn't as high profile / highly thought of when he signed for Leinster right?

Contepomi was definitely marquee. I don't think he was as marquee as Jordie Barrett.

"world-cup winner Chris Whitaker" - for this I could point to you comments about "world-cup winner, Jean Kleyn". Now, that's probably a little unfair but I think there's the crux of a point there too.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122038269#Comment_122038269

It absolutely could be coincidence that Leinster have signed 2 marquee players, the calibre / profile of which they haven't signed in ages, for the beginning of the same season where we will have the biggest imbalance of central contracts ever.

I suspect it's not, tho.