Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087871#Comment_122087871

You read it here first folks. It's apparently possible to harvest a smattering of fairweather rugby fans and yield international-calibre rugby players, if you have the right leadership. Leadership that practices sorcery, perhaps.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087338#Comment_122087338

I'm sure we'll get his side in his upcoming tell-all memoir. I think it's called Petrie Dishes.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087281#Comment_122087281

fair enough but the point stands, fans find far more issue with the IRFU, central contracts, the media and Leinster demographic/schools advantage to wish away enduring underperformance than they do with how the provinces are run. Coaches get stick, suits rarely do. Both Ulster and Munster have had periods where they dominated Irish rugby consistently, the reasons they fell away are mostly homegrown. RBAI and Methodist were once as important to producing Ireland players as blackrock and Michaels are now. It’s not the IRFUs fault that the wheels came off. RBAI has produced more internationals and Lions than any other school on the island, 3 times+ as many as Blackrock. At a guess they’ve also produced more IRFU leaders too.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087871#Comment_122087871

MMunster Invest in which schools though? There's pres and Christians in Cork City, bandon Grammar, glenstal, midleton college and very few others. And of those schools 2 are mixed unlike many of the leinster schools. Another has very small pupil numbers compared to most of the rugby schools in leinster.

Leinster players have only been coming from Michaels for just about a decade and we can't replicate what leinster are doing through the schools.

awec

This is just getting silly now. No other province will ever be able to replicate the Leinster private school system or even come close.

Munster, back in the 00s, were heavily reliant on the club system rather than schools.

But then the club game was neutered. 🤷‍♂️

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088395#Comment_122088395

I think everyone knows this but a few on here seem to think, or at least want us to think it's a simple solution, hey you, you have a school, why isn't that school producing players.

IF it was a simple fix, every school would be turning out tons of players for different sports.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088293#Comment_122088293

Michaels has around 600 kids, it's not a very big school. Gonzaga is even smaller and they've become a serious rugby outfit in the last few years only. Im not sure they've produced any pros but they've created a house style that's very successful. maybe they have way more resources than equivalent schools in Munster and Ulster to invest in rugby, Ive no idea.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088395#Comment_122088395

Club game seems to be going strong at the moment, based on all reports the attendance rates seem to be on the right way and quality of rugby

Why would another province want to replicate Leinster? they should look at the options they have available and maximise them. I don't think any province can claim they have maximised the academy system, Leinster included

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088175#Comment_122088175

Those RBAI numbers are a nonsense though - they're heavily skewed by the number of players they produced in the early 1900s. They boast of having 85 internationals and 13 Lions, but in the past 18 years they're not in the Top 10 nationally in terms of players produced, with 0 Lions.

If you go back to the start of 1996, so that counts the last 232 players to be capped by Ireland, Blackrock is #1 with 21 players, followed by Pres in Cork with 15, and St Michael's College with 11. Next is both St Mary's College and Clongowes with 9 each (Mary's numbers skewed by late 90s / early 2000s - their last international is Jack McGrath), with Munchins (8 players), Newbridge (7), Ballymena Academy (6), Ardscoil Ris and Castleknock College rounding out the top 10.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088754#Comment_122088754

Correct, I think any stats that include the amateur era are worthless, things were just so different back then.

Even early pro era is of limited value, when provinces were only playing a handful of games a year and players played for clubs. It is very hard to compare to the current world.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088861#Comment_122088861

Was is interesting is on that sample (232 players back to 1996), the split of province/club is relatively balanced.

Leinster lead the way with 77 (33%), but Munster (62 - 27%) and Ulster (51 - 22%) are well represented, with Connacht on 27 (12%). The remaining 15 players (6%) were with UK based clubs when first capped.

That hasn't changed that dramatically if you roll it forward and look at the last 100 players capped, where there are no players in the list who don't play for the 4 provinces, but the split is as follows: Leinster 39, Munster 25, Ulster 20 and Connacht 16.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088933#Comment_122088933

And if you set those figures against population, Leinster are about on par, Munster and Connacht are significantly over represented and Ulster are well under.

From I can see the overall population split is ~41% Leinster , ~31% Ulster , ~19.5% Munster and ~8.5% Connacht

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088933#Comment_122088933

Huh, that is interesting. Would not have guessed that.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088983#Comment_122088983

Population alone doesn't translate to more elite players though.
A better figure might be number of players playing Division 1A/1B AIL rugby.
I would guess Leinster has multiples of the playing population of any of the other provinces.
In Munster, rugby is the distant 4th sport after Football, Soccer and Hurling.
In Ulster half the population would perhaps still view rugby as a British sport and therefore would not participate.
Connacht would be very dominated by the GAA, and have only a few clubs at lower levels compared to the other provinces.

TLDR: Playing population along with the standard of club/school competition is more important than total population. A few schools or clubs competing at an elite level could drive standards higher than having many teams competing at a lower level.

RichieRich_89

It'll be interesting to see what locks make the Ireland squad for the summer tour if Ryan and/or Henderson don't/doesn't make it back in time. I'd imagine four second rows will be taken, so there would be two places up for grabs behind Beirne and Joe McCarthy.

Baird could travel as a lock, which would open up another blindside slot for Prendergast or McCann.

Treadwell and Ahern would probably be next in line, but I wonder where the Connacht starters, Niall Murray and Joe Joyce, sit in Farrell's thinking. Joyce seems like an effective player from what I've seen, but I haven't watched him week in, week out. What limitations/flaws does he have?

Izuchukwu and Deeny featured for 'Emerging Ireland', but they are probably well down the pecking order currently.

Paul Smeenus

I can't see Treadwell touring. Sheridan has leapfrogged both him and Izuchukwu. He's a cracking player but probably a bit small for international second row. I'd imagine the Connacht lads are in the driving seat.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091222#Comment_122091222

Ahern and Murray would be good choices, both have been in form for the last season or so

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091658#Comment_122091658

I think I'd be thinking Ahern and Joyce - a jumper lock and a pusher lock. Joyce brings a bit more beef than the other options.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088754#Comment_122088754

Where are those lists available out of interest?

Rugbyf565

. .

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122097654#Comment_122097654

Loving the cheeky ninja edit after full time :P

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096582#Comment_122096582

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ireland_national_rugby_union_players

This is the list of capped Irish internationals. On the school I had to do it manually, but had done it before for something I was putting together a year ago so didn’t take long to refresh.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099187#Comment_122099187

Ah fair play. It was the schools list that I was wondering about.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099187#Comment_122099187

you were making the point that the Ulster schools haven’t delivered internationals at the rate they did during the amateur era so that legacy is irrelevant. A big part of any club or schools sporting success is cultural though, it’s exactly the legacy that sets standards that can reproduce success. Munster are underperforming because of their previous success, Connacht aren’t underperforming compared to their history. For me the failure of Ulster schools to keep up with their own legacy is linked to the collapse of the province as a force in rugby generally in the last 20 years. Lots of explanations, competition from other sports, the growth of rugby elsewhere, catholics staying away from rugby, etc. none are particularly convincing though. Why do you think the likes of RBAI have gone from being one of the strongest incubators on the island to being a passenger?

Paul Smeenus

As someone who went to RBAI, it was a massive part of the culture, but not seen as a career. Now that a huge number of kids go to university, the assumption was that you'd go elsewhere, across the water,probably, and play for a club somewhere. When RBAI were big, very,very few teenagers went to university.

I'd say the significant majority of lads from Inst go across the water to university in Britain. Few sub-Academy players (i.e. those leaving school) would see enough to suggest they'll make a better living playing rugby than doing something else and playing as an amateur.

Maybe Ulster Rugby Branch (IRFU) should set up a university up North to keep folk here?

Paul Smeenus

Bear on mind that Ulster have recently set up a relationship with QUB as the Academy/young talent team, so work is going ahead.

ersatz

jordanstown, QUB, TCD, are traditional destinations for Northern folk, and is the migration/career thing any different for Leinster, Connacht, Munster? Granted there’s a much stronger tradition of studying in England/Scotland than anywhere else in Ireland.

jacothelad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102016#Comment_122102016

Well, in my circle of friends and acquaintances, in every case, their children have all gone to England or Scotland for their university studies with only one exception who studied medicine at Queen's and one who did law. Many want the extra experience of a new destination but the huge variety of higher educational choice in many different places is also tempting. Glasgow and Edinburgh, Dundee and St. Andrews as well as the various Oxbridge colleges are popular destinations. My own daughter attended Glasgow and then Edinburgh. Also, every child of my entire friendship group who went away to study have never returned except for social visits. It is the nature of things.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101314#Comment_122101314

Nowadays if someone is good enough to play for Ulster/Ireland, irrespective of their school, they'll go to Queens or the University of Ulster and hang about, certainly in 95% of cases anyway. But yes pre Academy structures very good players were lost. I think it's the next level down where good players are still lost and this affects club rugby, which affects the Academy as well because our club scene isn't as strong as the other provinces with just 2 1A clubs and 1 1B club. Do while all the best Leinster Academy prospects are playing 1A, that definitely isn't the case in Ulster with some Academy players even playing 2B in the past. Although as you point out this has now changed with the new arrangement with Queens.

As for Inst there were about 15 years where they didn't produce Ulster players never mind Ireland players. But that's changing with 5 ex Inst in the current squad, two in the Academy and there are definitely more in the works. Whether they kick on to play for Ireland (same for Ballymena Acad, Methody, Campbell, Wallace etc) depends on what happens after school in my opinion and that's where I think Ulster are being left behind at the minute.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102016#Comment_122102016

Ah yes, it is very different. I went to Scotland for university, as did pretty much all my mates. I came back to NI but I was the only one.