Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former

Not sure what the beef is here.

Leinster outgrew Donnybrook, and if they'd gone off and built their own 20,000 seater stadium, they'd still be going to the Aviva for 5 or 6 matches a year, and people would say the new stadium was a waste when they could have just rented the RDS. Where would you even put a new stadium, except out in the middle of nowhere.

Munster built the exact right size of stadium. Yeah it's rarely full but unlike Leinster, they don't have the escape valve of the Aviva for the big games so they needed somewhere for the European games and when Leinster rock up. Munster got over-optimistic on the financing, fair enough, but a smaller stadium would have been pointless.

The Aviva is as big as it could be, it's generally big enough and it went from financial burden to revenue-generating machine in record time.

Ulster and Connacht likewise have facilities almost perfectly in line with their needs, or will do when the renovation happens in Galway.

So either by accident or design, everyone is in a great position and barring Munster's rocky patch, it hasn't bankrupted anyone.

So again, what's the problem?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085888#Comment_122085888

Ulster really got the best deal, the Queen paid for the new stadium so they have no loans etc out on it and they also sold the naming rights at a nice deal.

Ulster should be top of the tree in terms of Irish provinces 😂

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083843#Comment_122083843

That is my point - I am in full agreement with you.

Munster made the right investment based on knowing the IRFU support and protection they had and their investment aligned with the IRFU goals that you noted. That doesn't take away from it being a financial drain on the IRFU budget and overall resources that are shared across the other provinces, including those where the IRFU isn't giving them the same type of deal Munster received.

Similarly, the IRFU ongoing investment in central contracts for their best players also aligns with the IRFU goals.

A set of posters claim the latter is unfair but become defensive when other types of IRFU investment and subsidies are highlighted for their provinces.

The simple fact is that each province get some form of special treatment from the IRFU and I don't think the fans of any province would be happy if that changed for a blanket 'level playing pitch' some claim to desire.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085702#Comment_122085702

Posters only really take aim on this topic in response to complaints from Munster fans about IRFU funding for other provinces. That is exactly how it started in this thread.

If Munster fans are going to complain about subsidies and 'special treatment' from the IRFU for another province, you can't get upset when people point out the subsidies and 'special treatment' Munster receive from the IRFU.

Some people need to remember they're in a glasshouse before throwing stones.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086270#Comment_122086270

Oh dear god, are you actually staying the only poster on here who has the moral high ground is awec???

Good help us all!!!

😁

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086212#Comment_122086212

right, and I’d say that rather than Thomond being a drain on the IRFU, it’s Munster’s decade of underperformance that’s a drain on the IRFU. Leinster’s relative lack of European success is not such a biggie because they’ve maintained and expanded their support base/ticket sales, and they have had numerous massive home games over the years. For me all the funding stuff is a big distraction from the coaching/management malaise beyond Leinster.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086422#Comment_122086422

I wouldn't even call Thomond a drain, it is the IRFU spending resources on a province that made sense given their unique situation.

It would have been dumb to tell Munster they couldn't get a loan for a ground development for on site they own because it isn't fair on the other provinces, who don't have their own sites suitable for development. Same logic holds for current spending on central contracts.

On coaching, I agree but the IRFU are damned if they do and damned if they dont, especially at the top coach level. Imagine if Rassie had underperformed and the IRFU made Munster push him out the door and he went on to win WCs. They and we would never hear the end of it.

Where the IRFU should have put their foot in more is around the investment in academies, other provinces were far too slow in following Leinster's lead on this.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086493#Comment_122086493

Where the IRFU should have put their foot in more is around the investment in academies, other provinces were far too slow in following Leinster's lead on this.

This is absolutely true, but Leinster were also gifted a perfect setup. The schools are not spending money hand over fist on coaching to help Leinster but to get one over on each other. The system can not be directly replicated.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086493#Comment_122086493

yeah, coaching/management will always be based around provincial autonomy with the IRFU engaged in contracts details and consultation, at least optically. And that’s as it should be. Provinces can and should have their governance house in order and have a realistic medium and long term development plan that officers/executives are accountable for. I’ve scratched my head for a decade with regard to Ulster and Munster on this question, who is responsible if the system is not delivering? According to a lot of posters here it’s the IRFU and/or Leinster or the Dublin media. I’ve never seen anyone on here point to people in the provincial management tier who are not performing, making bad decisions, not having any vision, hiring the wrong people, fostering a **** culture, etc etc. The kind of stuff that most professionals are judged on in their work.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086500#Comment_122086500

Munster developed international players, then didn't, now are again…like a number of young players shoudl have bright futures for Ireland

Is the issue with Munster and their identifications of talent? or their coaching of players?

It seems strange that a certain period players didn't get produced for Ireland. That has nothing to do with leinster or any other province.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086572#Comment_122086572

now are again

Are they? Not in anything like the numbers they did in the 2000s.

I'm not saying Munster didn't drop the ball, it is almost universally acknowledged that they did. I'm just saying that Leinster had and continue to have a significant legup in that regard.

Paul Smeenus

"I've never seen anyone on here point to people in the provincial management tier who are not performing, making bad decisions, not having any vision, hiring the wrong people, fostering a **** culture, etc etc."

"I was bemused a few months back to discover that the 'blazers' who held Ulster back after the European Cup win and caused carnage and huge discontent and reputational harm are still a large part of the bloody awful management. Now, many 'blazers' and 'alickadoos' are the backbone of rugby clubs but they have eff all squared to offer the professional side of things except to provide a millstone around the neck of the club."

Why don't you actually have a look? That took me thirty seconds to find. Maybe internet forums aren't for you.

Plenty of approbrium for Dan McFarland, Petrie, Bryn Cunningham, the appointment of Soper over Payne in the Ulster thread. Plenty of anger about spending money on the new pitch.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086500#Comment_122086500

True but similar could be said for Munster and they squandered it.

Munster had most of the country supporting them for a period of time and were one of the biggest brands in world rugby. With the right facilities, talent identification, partnerships, and coaching they could have pretty easily built on their success.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086662#Comment_122086662

Absolutely. Munster definitely screwed up in the 2010s and neglected their academy etc etc. I think this is pretty common knowledge at this point. There has definitely been a turnaround and we are starting to see really good prospects coming out of there. I can sit here and complain about Kidney all day long if people want, but it's in the past.

But both provinces working to peak efficiency, Leinster still have a massive advantage from demographics, economics and everything else. The schools system is what it is, Leinster didn't design it but they profit handsomely from it.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086682#Comment_122086682

Munsters initial strength in the Pro game in the early '00s came from the Club game - That whole squad were the product of several seasons of playing high quality Club Rugby.

In the early to mid '10s I think there was a general loss of focus on the club game , not just in Munster but everywhere - The Academy lads were barely playing for their clubs and not getting a whole lot of game time etc.

Leinster got away with it to an extent because they had a half dozen sub-sub Academies in the various Private schools which fed them a better prepared player than the other provinces were getting.

In the last 5-6 years those Academy players are back playing regular club rugby and certainly in the case of Munster they are paying a lot more attention to the Club Youth rugby pathways with multiple Snr squad members coming from there rather than the schools, that's a good thing and needs to continue.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086605#Comment_122086605

Crowley etc

The likes of Ahearn/Glesson would be expected to get plenty of caps based on potential so far

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086762#Comment_122086762

Murray, POM, Earls came didn't come out of club game and are 100+ caps players,

Zebo as well but should have way more caps

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086762#Comment_122086762

Would also agree that the original Munster success was purely born of the AIL. And it was to Munster's detriment that they bought into completely separating academy and development players from clubs - would have, and still would, serve them far better to have those lads playing in AIL games and being hardened from it.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086762#Comment_122086762

Leinster didn't 'get away with it', they made the right bet on how to retain and develop their young players, starting even before the '10s.

At the same time, Munster made terrible bets like maintaining two training bases, splitting players, including academy, and coaches. Schools pathway should have also been huge in Munster, they again wasted their window for it.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086856#Comment_122086856

Leinster.. made the right bet

Minutes from the first Leinster meeting c. 1880 actually prove this.

"In six score and ten years hence, an economic boom will plumpen the coffers of what shall then be known as the Irish Free State. Unprecedented resources will flood into Dublin private schools and their production of players will be a key asset for our pursuits. Let us mostly chill and underperform until such a day."

Perspicuity or what?

EDIT: Sorry @sydthebeat - 😉

Rugbyf565

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086682#Comment_122086682

Yep, I think where this academy negligence from the 2010s is most hurting Munster right now is in the front row where they have a seriously worrying absence of elite props and hookers. They’ve managed to produce quality players in other positions though- Shay McCarthy, Ben O’Connor, Gleeson, Gibbons, Edogbo Jr., Coughlan, Ruadhan Quinn will all turn into seasoned professionals IMO. From the previous crop you have Edogbo snr., Campbell, Ahern, Crowley, Flannery, Ben Healy, Hodnett, Kendellen, Casey -who have all proven themselves at the highest level. But think they’re behind on front row development.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086856#Comment_122086856

Leinster definitely leaned into the fact that they had a ready-made production line of Academy prospects already prepared for the structures of Academy/Pro sport coming from the Boarding schools where their schedule , food and training regimens were strictly controlled so for them moving to the Academy was a very simple transition.

That softened the impact of keeping those players largely out of the AIL game , a luxury that the other provinces did not have.

Brief_Lives

thank you Oracle, and can you provide the same level of insight for all provinces?

except Leinster of course. they're perfect.

Post warned.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086917#Comment_122086917

The idea that Leinster have had zero input to their own success in developing players and it's all down to the schools is pretty disingenuous. As someone who attended a pretty B tier rugby school I can tell you they are very involved. The resources input by the schools themselves has rather grown legs in exaggeration too.

Fortunately Munster seem to have turned a corner in development too

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086634#Comment_122086634

Far more blame being pointed to the IRFU on this debate around funding, but my question is about accountability. Both Munster and Ulster have fired coaches and its delivered very modest result. Have the fired any executives? Not that I know of.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086917#Comment_122086917

This is ridiculous though. Leinster themselves prove it by their underperformance til 2009.

You can have the greatest structure in the world, but decisions still have to be made to exploit it most effectively. Leinster made that pivot from around 08 onwards. They have scouts and development officers all over the province in private schools and public schools and clubs. No one can magic a St Michael's out of thin air, but it's about investment in that level of rugby and making the most out of what is there.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086984#Comment_122086984

I'd agree with this. For Munster in particular you need a strong AIL. And a strong Limerick. And Limerick rugby is not in a good place. Maybe the hurling success is biting the rugby?

Senior and Junior schools final this season was Pres-Christians. Senior Final last season was Pres-Christians. No Limerick schools even entered the Senior B competition, the Barry Cup, this season. Not good at all and not good for Munster in the long-term.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087146#Comment_122087146

You're aware Ulster CEO Petrie was fired, yes? He seemed to be held pretty accountable.

Anyway, you said that you'd never seen anyone post criticising the management att Ulster or Munster. Within half a minute I'd found exactly such a post. So who knows what else has been discussed on here that you've been completely unaware of?

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087281#Comment_122087281

I can confirm with semi-regular contact with Ulster fans and their use of four-letter words and the middle finger emoji, that Petrie was absolutely loathed.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086917#Comment_122086917

I understand it is far easier to cry that the world isn't fair than to open your eyes and accept that inept leadership in the province you support squandered the enormous lead they had over other provinces in nearly ever facet on and off the pitch.

Absolutely no reason that Munster could not have built facilities and pathways to turn the huge support they had in the '00s and '10s into a pipeline of players. You had guys raised in D4 who were self proclaimed 'Lunsters'. Moan all you want about private schools, there is absolutely nothing that stopped Munster from investing in their own private schools, especially when a significant portion of the Leinster and Irish teams are powered by just 2 schools.

Glad Munster didn't take the route you have, blaming everyone else, and finally got their act together in recent years, following some of the things that helped to make Leinster the success they are.