Farming and the Veganism: Where love and hate collide.

White Clover

Xtrail14 wrote: »

Will ye not just try wafer thin ham.

Does that chat up line work everytime:D

Buford T. Justice XIX

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Dunno about that. Only for myself and blue the place would fall asunder.
Blue comes up with all the good ideas and the 2 buck's above run off with them. :=) :=)

Sure everyone knows I'm only here for decoration anyway:D

Lookit, everyone of us work together to make decisions. It would be rare indeed for one of us to make a decision without consulting the others.

Hands up, I've done it and regretted it because we all have different perspectives and that is something I value highly in coming to decisions here.

Sometimes, though, well...hopefully we'll hear more about that soon, for better or worse.

Panch18

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Dunno about that. Only for myself and blue the place would fall asunder.
Blue comes up with all the good ideas and the 2 buck's above run off with them. :=) :=)

Feck sorry - totally omitted Genghis and Blue

Apologies to the real brains behind the operation!!!

Panch18

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Sure everyone knows I'm only here for decoration anyway:D

Lookit, everyone of us work together to make decisions. It would be rare indeed for one of us to make a decision without consulting the others.

Hands up, I've done it and regretted it because we all have different perspectives and that is something I value highly in coming to decisions here.

Sometimes, though, well...hopefully we'll hear more about that soon, for better or worse.

I liked this comment but the last line is killing me - it really is

But i totally understand why

Buford T. Justice XIX

I just opened a feedback thread, for those that want to contribute to it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115423887#post115423887

Panch18

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

I just opened a feedback thread, for those that want to contribute to it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115423887#post115423887

are we allowed post there or is it just for CMods etc?

gozunda

For those external posters attacking myself and others in the help desk thread on the basis of this thread here

Please note I nor anyone else 'started" this thread here.

I made a comment regarding the help desk in the chat thread - where it received numerous replies. At the request of another poster and then myself these comments were moved to a new thread by one of the mods. .

Considering the feelings of many posters on the issues highlighted - it is perhaps not surprising that emotions are running high.

That said as I'm concerned posters can comment as they wish bearing in mind the thread is like any other thread.

Could I ask the mods if this could this be put in a sticky.

Thanks.

Base price

I see there is going to be an amendment to the V&V charter - I assume that the offensive term "cruelty free" will be permanently removed.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115424845&postcount=164

endainoz

Base price wrote: »

I see there is going to be an amendment to the V&V charter - I assume that the offensive term "cruelty free" will be permanently removed.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115424845&postcount=164

Yeah it looks like it was worth calling them out on it. Well done guys, untill the next battle then.

roosterman71

Should the word "our" be in the charter. It flitters between "vegan" and "our". The charter should be for the group and the group be named and not collectively as "our". Proposed re-wording

A fundamental tenet of veganism is that animals are sentient beings which deserve rights and to live their lives free without being exploited or harmed for human gain. This means that certain aspects of human interaction with animals, both wild and domesticated, which many people see as perfectly fine are seen as unethical by vegans. Vegans appreciate that many people who work with, own or care for animals genuinely love the animals they interact with, but that doesn't change that those interactions may go against vegan fundamental beliefs. This is a Vegan belief system and in this forum that belief can be discussed in a respectful and considerate manner from a vegan and vegetarian point of view without being shouted down.

gozunda

roosterman71 wrote: »

Should the word "our" be in the charter. It flitters between "vegan" and "our". The charter should be for the group and the group be named and not collectively as "our". Proposed re-wording

Re discussing cruelty etc

Thats the thing. It is not a 'vegan' forum. Its a vegetarian and vegan forum.

I see the vegetarians only get a brief mention at the end.


From what I've seen - even the vegetarians have been accused of engaging in cruelty by some in that forum.

Neither accurate nor even equitable imo ...

Panch18

roosterman71 wrote: »

Should the word "our" be in the charter. It flitters between "vegan" and "our". The charter should be for the group and the group be named and not collectively as "our". Proposed re-wording

You should definitely give this feedback on the thread in Help

roosterman71

gozunda wrote: »

Thats the thing. It is not a 'vegan' forum. Its a vegetarian and vegan forum.

I see the vegetarians only get a brief mention at the end.


From what I've seen - even the vegetarians have been accused of engaging in cruelty by some in that forum.

Neither accurate nor even equitable imo ...

This part of the charter seems to be vegan specific though.

Panch18 wrote: »

You should definitely give this feedback on the thread in Help

Done. Needs approval though first

Faith

roosterman71 wrote: »

Should the word "our" be in the charter. It flitters between "vegan" and "our". The charter should be for the group and the group be named and not collectively as "our". Proposed re-wording

roosterman71 wrote: »

Done. Needs approval though first

Cheers, good point. I'll update it now.

_Brian

The revised charter to me seems a good enough compromise considering these two spheres rarely agree on much.

In particular

“Whataboutery”
No longer will the forum tarnish Irish farming based on the whataboutery of throwing up instances of poor farming practice around the world and try pin that onto Irish farming. It’s either a case of evidence of poor farming practice in Ireland or it doesn’t apply to Irish farming at all. They specifically forbid it in their charter.

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

Re discussing cruelty etc

Thats the thing. It is not a 'vegan' forum. Its a vegetarian and vegan forum.

I see the vegetarians only get a brief mention at the end.


From what I've seen - even the vegetarians have been accused of engaging in cruelty by some in that forum.

Neither accurate nor even equitable imo ...

Does it really matter what is in the charter ? Animal farming will still be perceived as cruel and unethical in the specific forum.

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Does it really matter what is in the charter ? Animal farming will still be perceived as cruel and unethical in the specific forum.

Well yes it does. Or did you miss the entire helpdesk thread?

But thank you for your opinion. Its been well noted...

Base price

endainoz wrote: »

Yeah it looks like it was worth calling them out on it. Well done guys, untill the next battle then.

The contentious feedback thread has now been closed and the amendments to the original V&V charter are now in place.
Thanks to Panch, gozunda and the other F&F contributors & Mods for taking a stand on behalf of the rest of us.
TBH I really wanted to comment in that thread but I took guidance from something Greysides posted once. It went something like this - If you cannot be civil in your response take a break, do some work, go for a walk away from your laptop and think about something else, after all it's only a online forum.

AssetBacked2

_Brian wrote: »

The revised charter to me seems a good enough compromise considering these two spheres rarely agree on much.

In particular

“Whataboutery”
No longer will the forum tarnish Irish farming based on the whataboutery of throwing up instances of poor farming practice around the world and try pin that onto Irish farming. It’s either a case of evidence of poor farming practice in Ireland or it doesn’t apply to Irish farming at all. They specifically forbid it in their charter.

Fair compromise.

It's not the farming practice usually that's the issue, especially in Ireland where there can be high welfare standards for certain animals. I think it's the fact that there is a fundamental disagreement on the end of life process which causes the issue. For some it is totally unacceptable to slaughter an animal and this seems to be where the division lies as to me it is separate to the farming practices.

_Brian

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

Fair compromise.

It's not the farming practice usually that's the issue, especially in Ireland where there can be high welfare standards for certain animals. I think it's the fact that there is a fundamental disagreement on the end of life process which causes the issue. For some it is totally unacceptable to slaughter an animal and this seems to be where the division lies as to me it is separate to the farming practices.

It’s interesting my father served his time as a butcher in the 50’s and loved it but never worked as a butcher afterwards. It was a busy shop and he was a strapping lump of a lad so he was down inntje slaughter house allot.

He always felt that the art of killing an animal was lost with the notion of stunning. He always insisted that a heifer cut with the sharpest knife, done properly and swiftly. He said that she would just stand there and not notice anything until sufficient blood loss put them out without pain or distress.

tismesoitis

I can't really understand why lads are getting so worked up about vegans and their opinions. Everyone knows they are like the crazy neighbour who is liable to say or do anything outlandish. If they feel that animals have equal rights to humans then that just serves to highlight a self confidence issue which we will not solve by argueing with them. They make up a very small percentage of society(albeit a very noisy one).I think its very interesting that 84% of people who claim to be vegan or vegetarian return to eating meat which just goes to prove the fad this is. The longer this cult lasts the quicker it will finish because the health implications will manifest.
Last week i was with the local GP for the jab and annual DOE and he fears that there will be an avalanche of osteoporosis in future years due to the number of impressionable young girls opting for non dairy alternatives...young,inocent,foolish!

_Brian

tismesoitis wrote: »

I can't really understand why lads are getting so worked up about vegans and their opinions. Everyone knows they are like the crazy neighbour who is liable to say or do anything outlandish. If they feel that animals have equal rights to humans then that just serves to highlight a self confidence issue which we will not solve by argueing with them. They make up a very small percentage of society(albeit a very noisy one).I think its very interesting that 84% of people who claim to be vegan or vegetarian return to eating meat which just goes to prove the fad this is. The longer this cult lasts the quicker it will finish because the health implications will manifest.
Last week i was with the local GP for the jab and annual DOE and he fears that there will be an avalanche of osteoporosis in future years due to the number of impressionable young girls opting for non dairy alternatives...young,inocent,foolish!

So, I agree in the main. It’s a minority group.

But where I see the danger is this group is being used seriously by big business. There are plenty who want to take more control of the food chain and they are using vegan extremist groups to push forward their agenda. This is where the danger is really, so allowing vegan rhetoric go unchecked is furthering a more insidious agenda isn’t the background to condition people further to believe industry provides food and not farms.

Plus it’s hard to listen to lies and damn lies.

There’s some stuff they raise like male chick grinding that is actually agree with them on, live shipping wouldn’t sit well with me either. If they stick to actual issues and stuck to facts their cause would be more tolerable.

weisses

tismesoitis wrote: »

I can't really understand why lads are getting so worked up about vegans and their opinions.

I agree with this part .....

bogman_bass

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

Fair compromise.

It's not the farming practice usually that's the issue, especially in Ireland where there can be high welfare standards for certain animals. I think it's the fact that there is a fundamental disagreement on the end of life process which causes the issue. For some it is totally unacceptable to slaughter an animal and this seems to be where the division lies as to me it is separate to the farming practices.

And that’s ok. If the vegan debate comes down to purely moral arguments that’s fine. I might find it naive but that is just my opinion as is their opinion about killing animals.
It’s when factually inaccurate misinformation gets passed around is where the issue lies

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

I agree with this part .....

Sorry but I really do find that quite funny considering its an obsession with farmers and farming thats been under discussion

Panch18

this is my last post on this - i hope - because my head is wrecked from it.

For me this wasn't a "battle" with vegans - this was actually a "battle" with Boards.ie. With the vegans you know what you are getting at least and they will try to take as much "moral high ground" as possible. and you'd expect that from them.

The fundamental issue here was with Boards.ie They had, for some random reason, added to the vegan charter a paragraph that gave vegans carte blanche to basically say what they wanted from an farm animal welfare point of view - and that those comments could go unchallenged - that's the key point. vegans could go around talking farm animal cruelty all they wanted and it couldn't be challenged because it was in the charter that farming animals is cruel. I and others challenged this and were infracted, banned and posts deleted.

So then you think ok how can the mod do this, I read the charter again, saw the change and saw the parameters under which the mod was acting - so in accordance with the charter.

SO then i thought ok they've changed this charter without really thinking about it or the repercussions of it - so i started the thread in Help - fully expecting a response of something like sorry we didn't think about it that way, or from a farming point of view, we'll change it now. Instead Boards doubled down on it and continued to double down thinking that it was ok. Hence the ensuing thread on here and how big the thread got on Help forum.

And that's completely not acceptable for me.

I understand that farmers are saying - ah don't bother with those vegans, lots of shouting from small few, but in this instance it is not Vegans as such that is the issue. It is the power that the platform gave the Vegans to talk crap. That is the key thing to take from this. As farmers we really need to think about how we are going to stand up for ourselves going forward. It's one thing Vegans saying their crap - it's a totally different thing not be allowed to counteract it or defend yourself.

There are much much bigger fights coming down the road - I am absolutely certain of that. Farmers need to be prepared for that and look after themselves as an entity.

Edit: Just to say that fortunately the charter was changed and a thanks to the farming mods who i would say were getting plenty of grief behind the scenes

greysides

And with Planch18's summary, I think this thread has come to it's conclusion.

Thanks to all, of all persuasions who posted.

Thread closed.