Farming and the Veganism: Where love and hate collide.

White Clover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In pedigree breeding its running at a much higher percentage


Most of These hoggots are physically not capable of having these ET lambs,they are being opened up to take lambs out of them,and off to factory when lambs reared,

I know this,because i know people that do it with their pedigree sheep....its foolish and ultimately undermines any animal welfare debates,when people bury their head in sand and try pretend its not going on

Put figures on it. What percentage of sheep are pedigree and what percentage of pedigree sheep are subject to what you describe.

You are basically slandering an entire farming sector in your last few posts. Nowhere has there been any shred of context in anything that you have posted.

weisses

_Brian wrote: »

Veganism is essentially a sort of mass hysteria where a group of people have been conditioned into thinking they know more about animal welfare than farmers and other animal keepers.

Mod Snip..... Leave off on the antagonistic type of posting please. Thanks. GC

I just leave the definition below

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Im not slandering anyone,nor any sector??

What do yous want pics of the sale cathalogues,signed statements from lads doing this,

I mean agriland has articles boasting on its succuss of ET....90% of mule hoggots wont lamb a texel lamb imo,

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/sheep-focus-i-thought-he-was-the-best-ram-lamb-i-ever-had/

Seriously would the the constant sheep discussion not be better in the sheep forum.

emaherx

weisses wrote: »

Snip

If it's simply do least harm, then he is probably more vegan than most of the vegan posters.

patsy_mccabe

Veganism is just an ideology. Their beliefs are based solely on ethics, nothing more. It's like religion, everyone has their own beliefs. A farmer discussing the rights and wrongs of eating meat with a vegan is like asking a rabbi and a priest, who is the one true God.

White Clover

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Im not slandering anyone,nor any sector??

What do yous want pics of the sale cathalogues,signed statements from lads doing this,

I mean agriland has articles boasting on its succuss of ET....90% of hoggots wont lamb a texel lamb imo,

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/sheep-focus-i-thought-he-was-the-best-ram-lamb-i-ever-had/

You are, you said " you should see what goes on with texel sheep"
You didn't qualify your statement with any detail. It was as broad a stroke as you could make.

No.1 How many sheep flocks in the country?
No.2 How many sheep are in the country?
No.3 How many pedigree flocks in the country?
No.4 How many pedigree sheep in the country?
No.5 How many pedigree texels are in the country
No.6 How many Commercial Sheep are AI'd?
No.7 How many Pedigree sheep are AI'd?
No.8 How many ET lambs are born each year?
No.9 How many hoggets are subject to what you describe above?
I could go on, you have given no context to anything you have posted.

You're obsessed with Texels. How many other breeds are there?
Just because it's an ET lamb, that doesn't automatically mean what happens to them is as you describe.
Its not only hoggets that lamb. 99.99% of sheep in this country lamb naturally.

You are assuming that every ET lamb born is a section. You are totally wrong in your assumption.

It is slander.

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Snip
I just leave the definition below

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

Ah yes the old v get out of jail card. So as long as someone makes a public statement that their personal beliefs "exclude ...as far as is possible and practicable" killing and exploiting of other animals and organisms etc. Then thats ok despite ignoring the massive death toll that eating a vegan diet / lifestyle entails.

Tbf that statement is little more than hypocrisy of the highest order. But its not just the bugs btw ...

Genghis Cant

Lads, the point has been made about ET sheep , well made at this point. It's not an integral part of the broader debate here so maybe park it and move on. Thanks.

_Brian

weisses wrote: »

Snip

I just leave the definition below

Yup.
Mass hysteria

I’ve seen vegan groups discussing taking away guide dogs from blind people because the dogs are being exploited. Making people on social welfare take the place of the dogs.

whisky_galore

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Veganism is just an ideology. Their beliefs are based solely on ethics, nothing more. It's like religion, everyone has their own beliefs. A farmer discussing the rights and wrongs of eating meat with a vegan is like asking a rabbi and a priest, who is the one true God.

This.
Since traditional organised religion is slowly heading down the shìtter, veganism is another way of having your own little tribe whilst bashing unbelievers over the head with your ideology.

In years gone by, such people would get their kicks out of checking who hadn't been to Mass.

jaymla627

_Brian wrote: »

Yup.
Mass hysteria

I’ve seen vegan groups discussing taking away guide dogs from blind people because the dogs are being exploited. Making people on social welfare take the place of the dogs.

The latest woke crusade in America centres around trying to get journalist Abigail Shrier cancelled over her book on the alarmingly raise in transgender teenagers in America, when you research it, its frightening the power these groups are been afforded and the damage they can inflict on the mass population, society as a whole is going to a place that's unthinkable morally and ethically

_Brian

whisky_galore wrote: »

This.
Since traditional organised religion is slowly heading down the sher, veganism is another way of having your own little tribe whilst bashing unbelievers over the head with your ideology.

In years gone by, such people would get their kicks out of checking who hadn't been to Mass.

I suppose it is human nature to have a “them and us” so we can feel superior to them. Avid sports fans would be another good example. Maybe it’s just genetically in some humans to invent something n like veganism to feel superior to others.

NcdJd

_Brian wrote: »

Veganism is essentially a sort of mass hysteria where a group of people have been conditioned into thinking they know more about animal welfare than farmers and other animal keepers. There is zero evidence that the whole planet could be vegan and in fact the regenerative movement and people like Gabe Brown have proven that only a holistic farming system including farmed animals is the future for saving the soils of the planet.
If we moved to the monoculture farming required to feed 8bln vegans the soils of the planet would be spun out in a few decades, it’s an unsustainable idea.

Much of what they point out is indeed a problem with modern agriculture, grinding of chicks is wrong, really high density farms make me uneasy and when you see the state of chickens coming out of intensive systems it’s a real red flag, we can do better.

Only thing I'd add on that Brian is I think the issue of food waste and the value consumers place on food needs to be addressed. Correct me if I'm wrong but moving from an intensive to a more extensive method of food production in my books would require more land for the same amount of food. There is a massive problem in my opinion of food being wasted by consumers and farmers having to dump produce due to not meeting supermarkets / consumer's idea of what constitutes quality produce and mainly to do with appearance. I've seen this first hand with vegetables locally. Trailer loads of it and in one case not even making it out of the field even though it was perfectly edible.

Race to the bottom price wise for food helps neither farmer, consumer or biodiversity long term.

K.G.

Veganism is alot like drinking.you do alot of it when you are young but eventually you get sense and grow out of it except for a few.

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

Ah yes the old vegan get out of jail card. So as long as someone makes a public statement that their personal beliefs "exclude ...as far as is possible and practicable" killing and exploiting of other animals and organisms etc. Then thats ok despite ignoring the massive death toll that eating a vegan diet / lifestyle entails.

Tbf that statement is little more than hypocrisy of the highest order. But its not just the bugs btw ...

Its the philosophy of the vegan society ..... Nothing new about it.

And yes you have to be practical about it .. Common sense really

The hypothetical insect on the windscreen of the car driven by a vegan outrage is kinda silly dont you think

weisses

K.G. wrote: »

Veganism is alot like drinking.you do alot of it when you are young but eventually you get sense and grow out of it except for a few.

For me it was the other way around ... I didn't care when I was younger, I probably didn't want to see the cruelty done to animals... Im aware now and feel better because of it

_Brian

weisses wrote: »

Its the philosophy of the vegan society ..... Nothing new about it.

And yes you have to be practical about it .. Common sense really

The hypothetical insect on the windscreen of the car driven by a vegan outrage is kinda silly dont you think

Or is consigning some sentient creatures as collateral damage not a convenient way of avoiding the conversation that you physically can’t live to a set of ideals so against the normal living of humans.

Panch18

As farmers we really need to wake up and see what’s happening here. @herdsquitter has mentioned several times about “the great reset”

Be under no illusions that this is not just a couple of lunatics on boards - below is from WEF. The world economic forum. Part of “the great reset” is “the great food revolution” whereby big business, supported and promoted by WEF will take over the food supply chain with plant based food.

It would be foolish of farmers to be unaware of this threat or to write it off as a few lunatics here and there. This is big business and big money getting involved

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/3d-printed-steak-cut-meat-consumption?fbclid=IwAR25s4cNxCMLUWA0FMXR0CXMeMPhdL4lT29owNmhn8KfG2bClZ5HZBsBY7w

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/sustainable-global-food-system-finance/

Edit to say that i am not 1 for conspiracy theories and all that crap - but in my opinion this is a very real and very powerful threat to agriculture worldwide

weisses

_Brian wrote: »

Yup.
Mass hysteria

I’ve seen vegan groups discussing taking away guide dogs from blind people because the dogs are being exploited. Making people on social welfare take the place of the dogs.

I have seen farming practices that make your blood boil

What is your point ?

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Its the philosophy of the vegan society ..... Nothing new about it.
And yes you have to be practical about it common sense really The hypothetical insect on the windscreen of the car driven by a vegan outrage is kinda silly dont you think

Didn't say it was 'new' btw. I'd say its old hat at this stage. Sense it certainly is not.

And btw not just 'bugs' or insects. The most recent estimates in arable and horticulture production is approx 7 billion animals and organisms being killed every year. And those deaths are very much known about.

And yes that's on everyone's plate. But I don't see anyone else giving themselves a get out of jail card to pretend some type of moral superiority to beat others over the head with.

weisses

_Brian wrote: »

Or is consigning some sentient creatures as collateral damage not a convenient way of avoiding the conversation that you physically can’t live to a set of ideals so against the normal living of humans.

No ... Why ?

weisses

So according to contributions on the last 2 pages ...I suffer from mass hysteria and I am a drinker

And at the same time giving out to vegans for being mean... Ironic isn't it

emaherx

weisses wrote: »

I have seen farming practices that make your blood boil

What is your point ?

Same here in both animal and plant based agriculture to be fair.

K.G.

weisses wrote: »

For me it was the other way around ... I didn't care when I was younger, I probably didn't want to see the cruelty done to animals... Im aware now and feel better because of it

Ah yeah some people dont start drinking until later in life too

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

And btw not just 'bugs' or insects. The most recent estimates in arable and horticulture production is approx 7 billion animals and organisms being killed every year. And those deaths are very much known about.

Correct and most of these deaths happens when land is cultivated to feed farm animals

Have a read through the article below

https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/no-vegans-dont-kill-more-animals-than-human-omnivores-a1975d1a497c

weisses

K.G. wrote: »

Ah yeah some people dont start drinking until later in life too

I Appreciate a good whisky now that I am later in life

K.G.

weisses wrote: »

I Appreciate a good whisky now that I am later in life

Cant stand the stuff myself,each to their own

El Tarangu

_Brian wrote: »

Yup.
Mass hysteria

I’ve seen vegan groups discussing taking away guide dogs from blind people because the dogs are being exploited. Making people on social welfare take the place of the dogs.

Ah yes - this is the only thing that we discuss on the V&V forum; in fact our deepest darkest fantasy to force the decommissioned beef farmers to lead around the blind lads...

I'm beginning to understand now some of the nonsensical ideas being posted on the V&V forum, given that this is the sort of misguided, bombastic rhetoric floating around on this forum.

White Clover

Mod Note.... As above.... Let it go. Like a dog with a bone at this stage..... A big juicy lovely bone. Let it go. Thanks. GC

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Correct and most of these deaths happens when land is cultivated to feed farm animalsHave a read through the article belowhttps://medium.com/age-of-awareness/no-vegans-dont-kill-more-animals-than-human-omnivores-a1975d1a497c

And that's the the type of constant misinformation which people here have been highlighting.

So you are relying for your information on an opinion piece written by another vegan - really?

But yes that's incorrect.. The percentage of grain etc which are quoted for animal feeds refer mainly to the proportion of left overs and by products from various crops used in the human food industry. These are fed to animals as the processing of cereal crops etc for human food etc result in huge amounts of waste including stalks, pulp, husks and so on.

And all those by products and left overs are fed to animals - thats all animals including pets, horses and not just livestock

What do you think they do with all the bits humans can't eat? Make soup?

And In this country the bulk of what cattle etc are fed is grass based

From the the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the UN

This study determines that 86% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption. If not consumed by livestock, crop residues and by-products could quickly become an environmental burden as the human population grows and consumes more and more processed food. ... 

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

Look I don't wish to be rude in anyway - but this type of deliberate misinformation does no one any favours especially vegans