Farming and the Veganism: Where love and hate collide.

gozunda

El Tarangu wrote: »

Ah yes - this is the only thing that we discuss on the V&V forum; in fact our deepest darkest fantasy to force the decommissioned beef farmers to lead around the blind lads...

I'm beginning to understand now some of the nonsensical ideas being posted on the V&V forum, given that this is the sort of misguided, bombastic rhetoric floating around on this forum.

Why are you being do antagonistic? The poster didn't suggest that's the only thing which is discussed

Buford T. Justice XIX

El Tarangu wrote: »

Ah yes - this is the only thing that we discuss on the V&V forum; in fact our deepest darkest fantasy to force the decommissioned beef farmers to lead around the blind lads...

I'm beginning to understand now some of the nonsensical ideas being posted on the V&V forum, given that this is the sort of misguided, bombastic rhetoric floating around on this forum.

Mod note: Take 24 hours off from the thread. You were nudged in the direction the thread was going to take but it appears you chose not to take the hint. 1 pm tomorrow or after, thanks. And have a really frank rumination about what way you choose to post when you return.

Buford T. Justice

NcdJd

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Mod note: Take 24 hours off from the thread. You were nudged in the direction the thread was going to take but it appears you chose not to take the hint. 1 pm tomorrow or after, thanks. And have a really frank rumination about what way you choose to post when you return.

Buford T. Justice

There hasn't been a post in here for 25 minutes everyone must be off on their tea breaks

Buford T. Justice XIX

auspicious wrote: »

Becaaaause we need vegetables and such but not meat to thrive.
Meat isn't essential and that is typified by giant healthy vegans walking around.

Perhaps you may clarify that point for us. Are you saying all nutrients are readily available in adequate amounts for every one solely through a vegan diet?

Perhaps some clarification re the recommendation for B12 supplementation for vegan adult diets specifically and other recommended supplements for other groupings?

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-supplements-for-vegans

Genghis Cant

weisses wrote: »

I Appreciate a good whisky now that I am later in life

I'd much prefer supporting Irish industry and drink Whiskey instead of Whisky.

gozunda

Genghis Cant wrote: »

I'd much prefer supporting Irish industry and drink Whiskey instead of Whisky.

Metoo

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

And that's the the type of constant misinformation which people here have been highlighting.

So you are relying for your information on an opinion piece written by another vegan - really?

Nope I read it an the go to other sources mentioned

Like this one

https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2018/07/how-many-animals-killed-in-agriculture/

Did you read the full article ?

weisses

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Perhaps you may clarify that point for us. Are you saying all nutrients are readily available in adequate amounts for every one solely through a vegan diet?

Perhaps some clarification re the recommendation for B12 supplementation for vegan adult diets specifically and other recommended supplements for other groupings?

RE b12

Interesting read

90% of B12 supplements produced in the world are fed to livestock. Even if you only eat grass-fed organic meat you may not be able to absorb the B12 attached to animal protein. It may be more efficient to just skip the animals and get B12 directly from supplements.

https://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30#:~:text=In%20order%20to%20maintain%20meat,B12%20attached%20to%20animal%20protein.

Gary kk

_Brian wrote: »

"But, cattle no longer feed on grass"


Straight out of the traps that article is rubbush...

Yeah totally bs

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Nope I read it an the go to other sources mentioned. Like this one
https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2018/07/how-many-animals-killed-in-agriculture/

Did you read the full article ?

I did indeed and it is badly flawed and does not stand up to information provided by bodies such as the FAO.

By the second link is not about crop use.

Its another veganised look at the available data alomg the lines of oh look its all the omnivores fault. . There's already been numerous discussions on boards about those claims and others and frankly they don't stand up to scrutiny.

And no Im not going to derail this thread with yet another attack on agriculture with opinion pieces in the supporting role. Thanks.

roosterman71

Ya have to wonder how we got to where we are as a species without the need for supplements in order to survive. Something gone horribly wrong if we need them. Or we're all being led up the garden path by some corporate moneybags to make us think we can't survive without them.

The fact of the matter is, there are too many humans on the planet. Yet, the planet is able to sustain them all with a healthy balanced (non supplemented) diet. Cut back food waste. Cut back importing stuff from the other side of the world. Cut back on processed foods. Everyone benefits then. Eat well, live well.

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

I did indeed and it is badly flawed and does not stand up to information provided by bodies such as the FAO.

By the second link is not about crop use.

Its another veganised look at the available data alomg the lines of oh look its all the omnivores fault. . There's already been numerous discussions on boards about those claims and others and frankly they don't stand up to scrutiny.

And no Im not going to derail this thread with yet another attack on agriculture with opinion pieces in the supporting role. Thanks.

Second link goes into the animals being killed ...You were the one touting the 7 billion number so I provided a source for that

As for the FAO link .. It implies that rain forest is being cut to provide soy for animal feed yes ?

roosterman71

weisses wrote: »

Second link goes into the animals being killed ...You were the one touting the 7 billion number so I provided a source for that

As for the FAO link .. It implies that rain forest is being cut to provide soy for animal feed yes ?

Isn't the majority of soy used for animal feed the waste product from the bits taken for humans?

The Soy market was worth $59.2 billion in 2018. That figure alone should indicate that it isn't being spent on animal feed alone.
https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/21201/#:~:text=The%20countries%20with%20the%20highest,%2C%20and%20India%20(25.5%25).

blackdog1

Panch18 wrote: »

As farmers we really need to wake up and see what’s happening here. @herdsquitter has mentioned several times about “the great reset”

Be under no illusions that this is not just a couple of lunatics on boards - below is from WEF. The world economic forum. Part of “the great reset” is “the great food revolution” whereby big business, supported and promoted by WEF will take over the food supply chain with plant based food.

It would be foolish of farmers to be unaware of this threat or to write it off as a few lunatics here and there. This is big business and big money getting involved

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/3d-printed-steak-cut-meat-consumption?fbclid=IwAR25s4cNxCMLUWA0FMXR0CXMeMPhdL4lT29owNmhn8KfG2bClZ5HZBsBY7w

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/sustainable-global-food-system-finance/

Edit to say that i am not 1 for conspiracy theories and all that crap - but in my opinion this is a very real and very powerful threat to agriculture worldwide

I believe this too. Veganism could lead to corporations owning land and growing tillage crops to feed them. For this to happen 2 things have to happen. 1 a large proportion of the population start eating a plant based diet and 2 an advance in technology to make tillage farming fully automated. Dairy farming is very labour intensive thus not attractive whereas with tillage farming if it was automated, you could potentially see 1 mechanic managing thousands of acres. People who invest is disrupting technologies have already invested in apps which tillage farmers input their land type, weather conditions, fertiliser application, spray applications and yields achievements so potentially once they have enough data they could in theory replace the farmers.

emaherx

roosterman71 wrote: »

Isn't the majority of soy used for animal feed the waste product from the bits taken for humans?

The Soy market was worth $59.2 billion in 2018. That figure alone should indicate that it isn't being spent on animal feed alone.
https://oec.world/en/profile/hs92/21201/#:~:text=The%20countries%20with%20the%20highest,%2C%20and%20India%20(25.5%25).

Yes and there rest of it is the leftovers from biofuel.

Dosen't it also take 11 times more soya to make a litre of soya milk compared to the amount of soya fed to Uk cows to produce a litre of actual milk also?

I'd imagine if the dairy industry was shut down our soya consumption would disappear over night.

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Second link goes into the animals being killed ...You were the one touting the 7 billion number so I provided a source for that

As for the FAO link .. It implies that rain forest is being cut to provide soy for animal feed yes ?

Touting"? I've read the original research, thanks. Btw we had moved on to crops and what is fed to all types of animals

So to avoid going going down the same route as the sheep thing previously and I'm going to park that.

Soy?

"It implies that rain forest is being cut to provide soy for animal feed yes?"

No. It doesn't. But lets look at that issue.

And just to knock that much repeated veganism

Soy is grown in many countries around the world. Not just Brazil etc

The facts are that soy beans are approx 20% oil and 80% meal. The oil is pressed from from the bean first and is currently the most valuable oil on the global commodities market. This oil is primarily used in the human food industry

What gets left over after the oil is squeezed out is the meal and the husks. And yes much of this gets used for animal feeds. That's all types of animals from dog food to horse food and yes feed for all types of farm animals.

Even if this none of the meal was fed to animals (of all types) soy would still be grown for its oil.
Should the meal and husks just be dumped ?

But just wait - currently the US is the world leader in growing soy. They also process their crop into oil and use what left over for a variety of purposes including feed for all types of animals. No 'rainforest' is cut down there.

The soy grown in Brazil is interesting in that it primarily is used in their own domestic market and exported to China.

For 2019 - the total Soybean production in Brazil was given as approx 122 million metric tons

Domestic soybean consumption in Brazil for 2019 was given at 48.6 million metric tons

In the same year, China purchased 58 million million metric tons of Brazilian soybeans

Combined exports to China and domestic use equals to approx 87%
(106.6 million metric tons) of the total 122 million metric tons of soybeans grown in 2019

Leaving just approx 13 % of all Brazilian soybeans exported to other countries globally - of which the main importers were the Netherlands, Iran and Spain Thailand and Turkey.

I'd suggest maybe those vegans who are who are so concerned about the rainforest get onto the governments of China and Brazil and give them a bloody good telling off before screaming about farming here ...

Personally I don't like soy. And I dont think it should be grown in countries like Brazil. Europe fine (even though growing conditions aren't ideal) the US etc etc fair enough..

46 Long

_Brian wrote: »

Yup.
Mass hysteria

I’ve seen vegan groups discussing taking away guide dogs from blind people because the dogs are being exploited. Making people on social welfare take the place of the dogs.

That's not the half of it. I've seen them call for experimental medicines and surgeries to be tested out on the prison population rather than animals. Throwing away the Hippocratic Oath and everything we know about informed consent for the sake of a few lab rats.

NcdJd

Was very interesting Panch but quiet alarming too. The grouping behind it seem to be well positioned in terms of global influence and policy. A dangerous group of people in my opinion and they have the financial clout, media platforms and the support from both the WHO and the UN to pull this off. As a previous poster referenced, these ideas start small but gain traction if allow to go unchallenged.

https://paleocanteen.co.uk/professor-frederic-leroy-the-great-reset/

Below is a summary of what he talks about. Well worth the time if you have an hour and are bored looking at the telly

Prof. Leroy’s bioengineering background
EAT Lancet’s planetary diet restricting meat and potatoes
Why are we inverting our two million year positive relationship with meat?
The Great Reset – on the cover of TIME Magazine
The Great Food Transformation
Accelerating rate of undemocratic top-down change
The people involved – the WEF
Maurice Strong’s Davos new age utopian transition mindset
The motivation for The Great Reset
EAT Lancet’s diet similar to macrobiotic diet – more grains, legumes, and veg oils, less red meat and eggs
Urban Western consumers and food virtue signalling
The true scope of EAT Lancet’s diet
The shift wheel
Taxes, restrictions, bans, Veganuary, making meat less visible, changing dietary guidelines etc.
Comparison to authoritarian policies of the past
Lack of dialogue and consultation within EAT
How grain cultivation was how the first human elites controlled the population
Why we need grassroots movements in communities to counter this
Health of soil, animals, foods, communities, and society
Regenerative agriculture is a mindset and a food system
Why we need to fight hard against this by reconnecting with our food
Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

Panch18

Panch18 wrote: »

this is not just a couple of lunatics on boards

I'm glad I have company :pac::pac::pac:

Panch18

Out of pure interest

Was the moderator of the vegan forum in touch with people regarding animal cruelty and getting a farmers perspective?

Faith it is

NcdJd

Panch18 wrote: »

Out of pure interest

Was the moderator of the vegan forum in touch with people regarding animal cruelty and getting a farmers perspective?

Faith it is

Not me anyway boss. Was wondering about that remark myself.

Panch18

NcdJd wrote: »

Not me anyway boss. Was wondering about that remark myself.

yeah a few others have said to me directly she didn't speak to them either

Would be good to know if she did speak to anyone on here? Don't want or need to know the details just curious if it took place

gozunda

Panch18 wrote: »

Out of pure interest

Was the moderator of the vegan forum in touch with people regarding animal cruelty and getting a farmers perspective?

Faith it is

I had pmd and asked about the forum changes which had gone from not permitting accusations of 'cruelty' to allowing posters there to describe farmers as perpetrators of cruelty. Unfortunately that didn't go down well imo ...

I then tried raising an aligned issue in a thread and received a ban for that.....

But no I was not asked my opinion

Faith

Panch18 wrote: »

Out of pure interest

Was the moderator of the vegan forum in touch with people regarding animal cruelty and getting a farmers perspective?

Faith it is

I assure you that I'm not a liar, but the individuals that I spoke to have no requirement to declare themselves to you.

Panch18

Faith wrote: »

I assure you that I'm not a liar, but the individuals that I spoke to have no requirement to declare themselves to you.

No they don't - I never said they did

I merely asked - no obligation

aRE you able to comprehend that?

greysides

Faith wrote: »

I assure you that I'm not a liar, but the individuals that I spoke to have no requirement to declare themselves to you.

I was asked for my thoughts. As I work with animals daily and call to many farms I was able to give Faith my perspective.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

No they don't - I never said they did

I merely asked - no obligation

aRE you able to comprehend that?

We were asked our opinions.

We gave them, comprehensively.

I have no idea if our stated opinions were taken on board or made any difference to the final decision.

Panch18

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

We were asked our opinions.

We gave them, comprehensively.

I have no idea if our stated opinions were taken on board or made any difference to the final decision.

Judging by the posts on the help thread I am afraid to say Buford that it looks like your opinions were completely ignored and fell on deaf ears

Unfortunately

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

Judging by the posts on the help thread I am afraid to say Buford that it looks like your opinions were completely ignored and fell on deaf ears

Unfortunately

I have no idea, Panch. We mods play with a straight deck here, always have. It doesn't always earn plaudits from those we deal with but that's outside our control, we do our best for those in our charge, unpleasant as it may be at times for us and them.

Sometimes issues are beyond our remit to rectify but we do as much as we can, though it often feels both thankless and fruitless.

NcdJd

Just looking up the term "Cruelty-Free" and it is applied to products not tested on animals, like shampoos and cosmetics....

So my take on that is that the likes of saying things like Cruelty Free Sausages is just a makey uppy term designed to annoy and bait other boards users.