Farming and the Veganism: Where love and hate collide.

auspicious

Panch18 wrote: »

Wasn't it only last week that yourself started a thread on After Hours calling farmers robbers and thiefs for milking cows??

And that thread got short shrift from the general public - much to your surprise i would imagine

I never called farmers robbers and thieves. And that thread was directed at consumers.
I'm a vegan. I'm used to pushback.

Panch18

auspicious wrote: »

I never called farmers robbers and thieves. And that thread was directed at consumers.
I'm a vegan. I'm used to pushback.

ha your gas

the title of the thread was "Stealing Milk"

Fluppen

There are some forums which are just unpleasant closed minded echo chambers and they are best avoided. I appreciate that there are people who have the time and energy to devote to standing their ground and protecting what is a very Irish way of life and I applaud you for doing so. Having said that, I really hope that having this thread on here won't attract unpleasant attacks on this forum which has in my experience been a very useful helpful forum populated by kind people.

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

I never called farmers robbers and thieves. And that thread was directed at consumers.
I'm a vegan. I'm used to pushback.

You mean the thread you created called "Stealing Milk"?

Nothing like getting through old boot in when you can eh

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115218950


Sorry Panch you bet me to it ...

auspicious

gozunda wrote: »

Abuse is it?

Yeah it was your recent hate speech about the parallels between farming and the nazi holocaust. And you were called out on it

or have you already conveniently forgotten all that?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057984962/4/#post115363678

Nothing by me. I was just s bringing attention to the personal connection and parallels made by Dr. Hershaft. The video was posted for vegans to watch and omnivores/vegetarians sitting on the fence. Some people need a push to give up meat and such. That connection can come from many different places.
As I always said, it's only the practices I hate. Never the farmers.

auspicious

Panch18 wrote: »

ha your gas

the title of the thread was "Stealing Milk"

Yes. Well it by right should go to the calf.
Should I go and ask mods to retitle it "Taking milk away."?
I don't mind.

Plus I've never used derogatory adjectives for farmers as opposed to on here where vegans get labelled extremist all the time.

Panch18

auspicious wrote: »

Yes. Well it by right should go to the calf.
Should I go and ask mods to retitle it "Taking milk away."?
I don't mind.

What do you think calves live on for the first 10 weeks of their lives?

Fresh air alone?

_Brian

auspicious wrote: »

That's a broad brushstroke your using there. Much like some farmers accuse vegan of tarnishing them with the same brush in certain discussions.
I've never threatened or abused a farmer.
Some fascists used gas chambers to kill their victims.

Have you ever called out some of the fellow vegan forum
Members for abusing farmers ??

Name calling is a base level of bullying yet calling farmers murderers and realists is accepted over there

auspicious

_Brian wrote: »

Have you ever called out some of the fellow vegan forum
Members for abusing farmers ??

Name calling is a base level of bullying yet calling farmers murderers and realists is accepted over there

You're well able to defend yourselves. You're not emotionally weak like we are.

Lady Haywire

auspicious wrote: »

Yes. Well it by right should go to the calf.
Should I go and ask mods to retitle it "Taking milk away."?
I don't mind.

Plus I've never used derogatory adjectives for farmers as opposed to on here where vegans get labelled extremist all the time.

You are the person who claimed we used 'rape racks' until you retracted it when I replied to refute it.

auspicious

Lady Haywire wrote: »

You are the person who claimed we used 'rape racks' until you retracted it when I replied to refute it.

That was directed at a practice not a person. And I retracted it as you said.

_Brian

auspicious wrote: »

You're well able to defend yourselves. You're not emotionally weak like we are.

I take it you turn a blind eye so. A form of acceptance at least.

Lady Haywire

auspicious wrote: »

That was directed at a practice not a person. And I retracted it as you said.

You only retracted it after proven wrong, so yes, that is targeting farming practice. If I hadn't replied to that, would you have changed your post?

El Tarangu

Panch18 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Hey all

You'll not often find me on the side of farmer interests (pampered civil servant whose bus is too often delayed by the protests :-) and from fisherman stock to boot) but that change in the charter is a shocker tbh

It's as much a "no farming view welcome" which will very soon become "no alternative view welcome" which will very soon just be a forum from which extreme opinions will be launched across the wider boards, imo

I thought your post on the help forum was excellent - thanks for the contribution.

you've hit the nail on the head there - its no alternative views welcome - where does it end

Given that about half of the posts on the V&V forum seem to be from farmers, I don't think that this terrible vista will be upon us any time soon.

As someone has only a cursory interest in both the V&V and F&F forums, I must say I am surprised at the hurt attitudes being displayed by some of the farmers - surely one must expect, on a forum for Vegans & Vegetarians, to encounter attitudes towards animal husbandry, and terminology to describe these practices, that won't accord with your own?

It's like a group of Christians visiting the A&A forum, and being apalled by people denying the existence of God.

auspicious

_Brian wrote: »

I take it you turn a blind eye so. A form of acceptance at least.

Well the forum was a bit wild west for a while.
The word murder and slaughter are separated by dictionary definitions. The outcome of each act is the same. The taking of life.

Panch18

El Tarangu wrote: »

Given that about half of the posts on the V&V forum seem to be from farmers, I don't think that this terrible vista will be upon us any time soon.

As someone has only a cursory interest in both the V&V and F&F forums, I must say I am surprised at the hurt attitudes being displayed by some of the farmers - surely one must expect, on a forum for Vegans & Vegetarians, to encounter attitudes towards animal husbandry, and terminology to describe these practices, that won't accord with your own?

It's like a group of Christians visiting the A&A forum, and being apalled by people denying the existence of God.

It's like a group of Christians going to the A&A forum to discover that Christians are being called thiefs, murders, rapists and a whole host of other derogatory terms.

Do you think we should lie down and accept that crap?

I haven't seen too many farmers say anything about Mary having a spice burger for dinner or the like

DukeCaboom

_Brian wrote: »

Extremist vegans like these are essentially facists.
They want to force everyone into their path, to believe what they believe eat what they eat. Anyone not aligning with them is the enemy and abused and often threatened, reputations tarnished with lies and false “evidence”.

Much of I think is being stoked up in the background by big business interests intent on getting more and more people onto their products.

The second paragraph is exactly right. As Lester freeman in the wire would say "FOLLOW THE MONEY"

Pkiernan

There is an awful lot of cruelty in farming though, especially factory farmed poultry pigs.

If you cant see that, then you're in complete denial.

Panch18

DukeCaboom wrote: »

The second paragraph is exactly right. As Lester freeman in the wire would say "FOLLOW THE MONEY"

Oh Brian absolutely nailed it there about big business driving this agenda

El Tarangu

El Tarangu wrote: »

Given that about half of the posts on the V&V forum seem to be from farmers, I don't think that this terrible vista will be upon us any time soon.

As someone has only a cursory interest in both the V&V and F&F forums, I must say I am surprised at the hurt attitudes being displayed by some of the farmers - surely one must expect, on a forum for Vegans & Vegetarians, to encounter attitudes towards animal husbandry, and terminology to describe these practices, that won't accord with your own?

It's like a group of Christians visiting the A&A forum, and being apalled by people denying the existence of God.

Stating as an adopted forum position that farming involves cruelty because "some people think so" is not the same as disagreeing whether god exists.

One is an accusation against a group, one isn't.

Fairly simple to see that imo.

auspicious

Panch18 wrote: »

Oh Brian absolutely nailed it there about big business driving this agenda

Agenda is just a word. When I'm driving my car my agenda is to go somewhere.

Climate crisis, falling global biodiversity, health science and animal ethics are the main drivers of people turning to WFPB/vegan options.

Panch18

auspicious wrote: »

Agenda is just a word. When I'm driving my car my agenda is to go somewhere.

Climate crisis, falling global biodiversity, health science and animal ethics are the main drivers of people turning to WFPB/vegan options.

Was it you or 1 of your other vegan followers that wants to kill all farmed animals in the world if the world went vegan in the morning?

And then you have a go at farmers?

get real

And if you think your avocados from Mexico, your almond milk from California or your quinoa from Peru is better for the environment than a steak from a butcher shop which sourced the animal in its locality - then you are sadly sadly mistaken

endainoz

auspicious wrote: »

Agenda is just a word. When I'm driving my car my agenda is to go somewhere.

Climate crisis, falling global biodiversity, health science and animal ethics are the main drivers of people turning to WFPB/vegan options.

It's funny that most of those issues can be solved with the integration of animals on to pastures to help with soil and bio diversity.

The animal ethics issue is merely an opinion, you won't find anybody on this thread who condones industrial farming, be it animal or vegetable farming. Intense veg production is just as, if not more damaging to the soil as intensive animal farming.

The world's top soil is due to run out in less than 60 years. Regenerating this can not be done without animal integration, this is an undisputable fact. You won't be able to do it without them.

greysides

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m one of those vegans Brian and I’m not an extremist or a fascist.

Ah! Hello there, Klopparama, my old friend! Nice of you to just poop in. I do hope your receiving a very warm welcome.

And there was I, just the other day, saying how we never get friendly visits from Vegans any longer.

Now seeing as your here, maybe we could finish our previous conversation.

Just to remind you, although it feels like just the other day we were discussing the question that was asked on your forum, the V&V forum, I'll just post the pertinent bit.

Let's say tomorrow the entire world goes vegan, just like that. Would it be a good thing if that happened? Honestly, I think it would. God knows we've been doing enough damage to the planet for millennia now, including countless harm towards animals, plants and so on. But the thing I have never seeing being discussed is this:

What happens to all the farm animals? Cows, pigs, chickens, and all the rest.

I was just passing through, the way you do, you know, and I thought I could answer this is a non-controversial way, so I posted this:

BTW, you'd already got two good answers in previously, no flies on you!

greysides wrote: »

If there were a gradual changeover where farm animals were not needed for food then numbers of animals on farms would gradually decline in response to market forces. Most animals reared for meat have relatively short lives so it wouldn't take long for their numbers to decrease once no more were being breed. Cows live longer, as they are productive for longer, and so would numbers would drop more slowly; though a lot would probably be culled earlier than otherwise as they need to 'earn their living' and it wouldn't be economically possible to keep them on if they didn't. Some might live on as pets of a sort. Also, if land use was changing over to arable then there wouldn't be food/grass available for them and they couldn't be allowed starve. Horses, kept for sports activities would probably escape the cull. The farm dog would be mindlessly bored and dizzy from chasing it's tail. The farm cat would have to do without it's milk and go hunt mice and rats instead.

The people who like to drive through the countryside or live in the countryside might get a bit upset. Driving through some of the intensive cereal producing areas of England is very boring. Animals in fields add in variation and the features that go with them add interest and beauty. There would be a dearth of lush green fields of grass and winding lanes of hedgerows with a variety of tree species. In a way, wild-life would suffer too as the reduction in variety of habitats affected their diversity too.

You'll have to pardon my little whimsy about the cat and dog- though there is a grain of truth there. And I was probably feeling a little teary at the idea of a countryside without animals by the time I penned the last paragraph!

Well, I am obliged to you for your answer, you remember the one? Sure, here it is:

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus that’s some amount of drivel to be posting.

I currently don’t have the time required to address each and every insensitive ‘point’ you’ve raised.

Not sure you get how vegans or vegetarians feel about the animal cruelty. This forum mightn’t be for you.

I do hope you find this forum more welcoming than my first tentative post in yours, but I was delighted to find the next morning that over-night you'd made the time you respond more fully to my 'drivel' because I was afraid my post hadn't met with your full appreciation.

So, for discussion purposes, and in the light of hoping for understanding and reconciliation, I'll post your second reply here.

Deleted User wrote: »

Gonna call this for what it is.

Drivel and bad form.

Bad form because you’re a moderator and should have some respect for the work your fellow moderators do.

Drivel because it’s incitement. You know what forum you’re in. Your comments are completely and unquestionably out of order.

You should be held to a higher standard as a moderator. If you’re not familiar with the beliefs of vegans or vegetarians then you should educate yourself before chipping in with such nonsense.

The following in particular is distasteful - ‘ Horses, kept for sports activities would probably escape the cull. The farm dog would be mindlessly bored and dizzy from chasing it's tail. The farm cat would have to do without it's milk and go hunt mice and rats instead.

The people who like to drive through the countryside or live in the countryside might get a bit upset. Driving through some of the intensive cereal producing areas of England is very boring. Animals in fields add in variation and the features that go with them add interest and beauty.’

What forums do you moderate ?

Now, did I mention I'd posted what I thought was a harmless reply to a hypothetical question? Well, just in case I didn't, I'll just mention it again.

You'll have to explain to me where my assumption was wrong, because I'm afraid I don't see it, and I decided not to add to the new mods workload by any further posting on that thread.

However, I'm happy to continue our meeting of minds here, in this forum.

Oh yes! I remember now. You asked me what forum I moderate. Well, I moderate this one!

White Clover

endainoz wrote: »

It's funny that most of those issues can be solved with the integration of animals on to pastures to help with soil and bio diversity.

The animal ethics issue is merely an opinion, you won't find anybody on this thread who condones industrial farming, be it animal or vegetable farming. Intense veg production is just as, if not more damaging to the soil as intensive animal farming.

The world's top soil is due to run out in less than 60 years. Regenerating this can not be done without animal integration, this is an undisputable fact. You won't be able to do it without them.

You might as well be talking to the wall. The vegans posting on boards are convinced that their opinion is fact.
Science doesn't get a look in.

Panch18

White Clover wrote: »

You might as well be talking to the wall. The vegans posting on boards are convinced that their opinion is fact.
Science doesn't get a look in.

That's because they are not interested in science or facts or solutions or alternatives or anything else only vegan vegan vegan

It's an absolute cult - they shouldn't really be left out in public, what we need is some kind of commune or the like

gozunda

auspicious wrote: »

Nothing by me. I was just s bringing attention to the personal connection and parallels made by Dr. Hershaft. The video was posted for vegans to watch and omnivores/vegetarians sitting on the fence. Some people need a push to give up meat and such. That connection can come from many different places.As I always said, it's only the practices I hate. Never the farmers.

Really? You have the neck to turn up and pretend you haven't regularly inferred that farmers are rapists and torturers?

And by the way to you mean this Dr. Hershaft?

https://nonprofitchronicles.com/2018/02/16/alex-hershaft-an-animal-rights-pioneer-with-a-metoo-problem/

Looks like he's not big into women's rights.

Also using the nazi holocaust parallels to push a vegan agenda has been called out as grossly offensive by various Jewish interests. With similar comparisons having been banned in Germany for making the Holocaust seem "insignificant and banal", 

Stuart Bender (legal counsel for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum) has requested that people "cease and desist this reprehensible misuse of Holocaust materials" to promote such agendas and called Holocaust imagery by animal rights activists a deeply "disturbing development.

Maybe think for a change before posting such ****e

El Tarangu

Deleted User wrote: »

Stating as an adopted forum position that farming involves cruelty because "some people think so" is not the same as disagreeing whether god exists.

One is an accusation against a group, one isn't.

Fairly simple to see that imo.

Well it's question of what someone considers "cruel", isn't it?

A factory farmer might not consider his farming operation cruel, because it's within regulation. A free-range livestock farmer might consider the operation of the factory farmer cruel, but his own not to be.

A person who frequents a forum dedicated to veganism might find raising animals for slaughter, under any circumstances, cruel, no matter how well-intentioned the farmer.

Lady Haywire

El Tarangu wrote: »

Well it's question of what someone considers "cruel", isn't it?

A factory farmer might not consider his farming operation cruel, because it's within regulation. A free-range livestock farmer might consider the operation of the factory farmer cruel, but his own not to be.

A person who frequents a forum dedicated to veganism might find raising animals for slaughter, under any circumstances, cruel, no matter how well-intentioned the farmer.

PETA also considered the shearing of sheep to be cruel, d'ya remember that ad? The one with the bloody sheep 'after shearing'
False information isn't good for any party, vegan or farmer. If I see such info being portrayed as 'fact' of course I'm going to dispute it, as are many others.
Many people who don't grow up on farms or have any sort of knowledge in the sector might believe that crap. That is where I draw the line.

auspicious

Panch18 wrote: »

Was it you or 1 of your other vegan followers that wants to kill all farmed animals in the world if the world went vegan in the morning?

And then you have a go at farmers?

get real

And if you think your avocados from Mexico, your almond milk from California or your quinoa from Peru is better for the environment than a steak from a butcher shop which sourced the animal in its locality - then you are sadly sadly mistaken

I've no followers lol. We follow if anything our moral compass.
If world turned in morning the best practice solutions would need to be explored regarding remaining livestock.
Part of the definition of veganism includes 'practically possible'.

I can't remember the last time I ate an avocado. I never drink almond milk because of the quantity of water needed to grow almond ( I do eat the nuts- not a lot of them ). And I've tried quinoa once about two years ago.