The Leinster Championship is dead.

StupidLikeAFox

It was answered on page one - the gaa have implemented a wildly successful program to rejuvenate Dublin football. They put together a plan and pumped obscene money to develop players and structures and it couldn't have worked out better. I think it's time to change focus now to the rest of the country as the dubs have taken it to another level. Sure if all the success isn't about the money ye surely won't miss it??

Scoundrel

Scoundrel wrote: »

For the love of Jesus Christ almighty the issue isn't how Dublin have spent their massive amounts of money given to them by the GAA its that they were given far more in the first place and that this money has partly caused the current farce that is the Leinster and indeed All Ireland championships.

It isn't a level playing field and so long as the GAA continues to fund Dublin to the hilt at the expense of others it never will be.

But they're not "funding Dublin", at least not in the way that people are hinting at whenever this discussion comes up. Yes Dublin gets more in games development grants, but there's no digging down into the bare numbers. If Dublin get 10 times the funding Kildare gets, but Dublin has 20 times the number of kids that Kildare has, then it is Kildare who are being 'financially doped', not the other way around. There's no nuance to it, it's all Ewan McKenna pulling figures out of Kilmacud Crokes annual report from 2008.

Where/how was the Dublin GD money spent?
How much per potential lifelong GAA player was it?
Where/how was it spent in your own county?
How much per potential lifelong GAA player was it?
How do the two figures tally when compared objectively?

But nobody wants to know, instead its all "the Dubs got 17 million, where's me All-Ireland, split them in 2/4/6/8" ad nauseum. People are pointing out that Mayo have higher travel costs than the Leinster counties. THAT'S NOT WHAT THE MONEY IS FOR, NUMBNUTS! Or, at least, that's not what it's s'posed to be for.

Uncle Pierre

Deleted User wrote: »

1. I never asked for anything
2. You are the spokesperson for these figures, you said yourself you pointed "me" (again, not me) towards these figures
3. If those figures do not stand up to scrutiny, you cannot then say "suck it, not my figures take it up with Connellan". You either engage in the conversation and make counterpoints to the arguments raised or else accede that they are not fit for purpose

I mean, if I took a photo of some graffiti in the jacks in Coppers that says Leitrim are backed to the hilt by the GAA to the tune of €75 million...........would it be acceptable for me to say, "hey, that's not my data so don't shoot the messenger, If you've an issue with the figures then track down the author".

IF you are using these figures to make a point* then you either defend them from criticism or accept that they do not stand up to scrutiny.

* and you are making a point, here, despite your protestations to the contrary.

Please have a look at posts 46, 51, 54 and 58.

I was replying to a request from another user that asked "any figures for that?", and my other reply that you quoted in your post here was aimed at that other user too.

Please don't have a go at me because I pointed somebody else in the direction of some figures that he asked for.

Uncle Pierre

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

It's not quite "can be applied equally"....more a case of could be applied equally, if the level of funding for the other counties was proportionate to the funding that Dublin enjoys.

But it has not been shown to be disproportionate. At least, I've not been shown proof that it is.

Saying Dublin get more than everyone else is not proof
Saying they get more per registered player is not proof
Saying they get more per GAA club is not proof

It's the equivalent of saying that you should get the same amount of children's allowance as the woman next door, while ignoring the fact that she has 8 kids more than you.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

And I agree, but that is despite the actions of the Mayo County board, not because of them. But that's another discussion.

Please explain.

Deleted User wrote: »

I note that you refused to answer the question put to you directly.

What is it about some people responding to a post which included 'What do you think?', with a comment like this while not answering the question they were asked?

Is this about your question about Jeff Bezos? I presumed this wasn't serious but was some sort of rhetorical point given Jeff Bezos has no connection to Kildare, no expressed affinity with the county and the money you suggested is 1000 times greater than that awarded to May on your previous example.
To go ahead and answer it, I don't have a problem with private funding from people who have a specific desire to help their homeland or that of their ancestors. It is something which has long been a practice in Ireland as people emigrated, became successful and sought to help those left behind.

I see absolutely no comparison between that and the governing organisation favouring a single group disproportionately.

Uncle Pierre

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Please have a look at posts 46, 51, 54 and 58.

I was replying to a request from another user that asked "any figures for that?", and my other reply that you quoted in your post here was aimed at that other user too.

Please don't have a go at me because I pointed somebody else in the direction of some figures that he asked for.

Jesus Christ, I know where and why you got the figures. I'm saying they're bullsh1t figures, so you responding to the request means SFA in the grand scheme of things. If they are incorrect, then what's the point?

In fact, here you go, here's figures that blow your ones out of the water:

Amount of money given to intercounty teams by the GAA:
Dublin €1
Kerry €145 million
Leitrim €254 million
Everyone else: nothing

Hard luck, back to the drawing board.

Cilldara_2000

https://twitter.com/SeanMcGoldrick1/status/1093268753725431808?s=20

The figures are not bull**** but I am not all surprised by the usual tactics of deflection and whataboutery.

Deleted User wrote: »

But they're not "funding Dublin", at least not in the way that people are hinting at whenever this discussion comes up. Yes Dublin gets more in games development grants, but there's no digging down into the bare numbers. If Dublin get 10 times the funding Kildare gets, but Dublin has 20 times the number of kids that Kildare has, then it is Kildare who are being 'financially doped', not the other way around. ...

See the above link. Dublin received 16 times the amount of this particular category of funding than Kildare. In 2016 Dublin had 6 times the population of Kildare. That's nowhere near "20 times the number of kids" and is substantially more than "10 times the funding".

highgiant1985

Deleted User wrote: »

Dublin has 20 times the number of kids that Kildare has,

To me this is the nub of the problem. Larger player pool to pick from leads to a stronger squad. It's just maths really.

(i) I believe every child should have the opportunity to play and be involved so I wouldn't like to see any change to the funding models that would impact on under age.

(ii) However it also has to be acknowledged Dublin's dominance is killing the game. A strong Dublin is important to the championship but only where there's genuine competition. The easy option would be to divide the county in to two teams. There may be better options either. I don't claim to have a perfect solution but I do believe something has to change. I mean realistically can people see anyone but Dublin continuing to win Leinster for the next decade at least?

Cilldara_2000

Deleted User wrote: »

The two posts are indicative of the hypocrisy that I am pointing out. Either all the money should be shared out equally, or all counties are free to raise their own funds (including from HQ). You were both arguing opposite sides of that argument for the same purpose....i.e. contradicting each other.

1) What exactly is an equal share of the money?

2) Why is this a binary choice? There are several different possible income streams. Gate receipts, sponsorship, fundraising, other commercial deals etc. Different counties have different potentials in terms of what they can generate themselves. Some of the money being shared out equally and counties also being free to raise their own funds is the more common sense approach.

Uncle Pierre

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus Christ, I know where and why you got the figures. I'm saying they're bullsh1t figures, so you responding to the request means SFA in the grand scheme of things. If they are incorrect, then what's the point?

Well in that case....apologies again for responding to a request from another poster which asked for those figures.

I'll be sure to check in with you next time on whether or not it's okay to post something in reply to somebody else.

Uncle Pierre

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Well in that case....apologies again for responding to a request from another poster which asked for those figures.

I'll be sure to check in with you next time on whether or not it's okay to post something in reply to somebody else.

You are missing the point completely, I suspect it is on purpose at this stage. Nobody is complaining that you provided figures. But if the figures are wrong or don't stand up to scrutiny or if they don't support the point being made, then they are useless.

A poster asked for the figures
You provided them
They were queried
You said "they're not mine"
Therefore those figures are worthless

If you think they're true, then argue the toss
If you don't think they're true, then why post them?

Uncle Pierre

You're funny.

Here's a figure: 252 new Covid-19 cases announced in Ireland today.

But that's not my figure. I'm simply posting something that I saw elsewhere.

So is the figure worthless?

But on a more serious note....I posted the figures simply because somebody asked for them. They didn't ask for scrutiny or analysis of those figures, and nor did I purport to give them. It really is as simple as that.

dobman88

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't handicap Dublin, you remove one advantage they have that is not a natural advantage and you give it to their competitors. What advantage is that? Money.

Dublin can self-fund now more than any other county. So let them. (I am a Dub by the by).

The 2003 strategy put in place by Sean Kelly was designed to reinvigorate Gaelic Games in Dublin and to ward off challenges from the professionalisation of rugby and the continuing appeal of soccer. There were whole swathes of south Dublin where GAA was simply a non-starter.

In that regard the GAA have been spectacularly successful. Unfortunately the programme coincided with a decent Dublin team coming along naturally. This team was then supplemented by huge finances and an overhaul of underage talent meaning that the 2011 team (largely unaffected by the influx of money) was strengthened by 2011 minors who were more or less a direct product of the investment strategy. The 2011 minors gave Dublin Jack McCaffrey, Paul Mannion, Ciaran Kilkenny, John Small, Eric Lowndes, David Byrne, Niall Scully, Robbie McDaid, Emmet O'Conghaile and Conor McHugh. They filtered into a team with Paul Flynn, James McCarthy, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard and Alan Brogan, Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick etc. The cumulative effect was dominance.

However, the GAA do have a model for bringing the sport to a good place in other counties. Just do what they did in Dublin on a scaled basis for the rest of the counties. It took around €17million to do it in Dublin because of the scale but the same results can be achieved for equivalently less money in smaller counties.

This isn't a theoretical question either. This has to be done. Otherwise saving gaelic games in Dublin will have had the perverse effect of killing Gaelic Football everywhere else.

Thread should have been locked after this post.

Anyone else defending the figures is just pure waffling nonsense that need to take their head out of the sand.

Any money raised by private backers is for the county, AIG, Jp McManus, Kerry group, mayo supporters club, whatever. That money is for the county its given to.

Any money from GAA should be distributed evenly and its just not as we all know. If anyone wants to deny that and say Dublin have not been given more than any other county over the last number of years then theres really no point in engaging

corny

dobman88 wrote: »

Thread should have been locked after this post.

Anyone else defending the figures is just pure waffling nonsense that need to take their head out of the sand.

Any money raised by private backers is for the county, AIG, Jp McManus, Kerry group, mayo supporters club, whatever. That money is for the county its given to.

Any money from GAA should be distributed evenly and its just not as we all know. If anyone wants to deny that and say Dublin have not been given more than any other county over the last number of years then theres really no point in engaging

Is such an admission the point of the thread? I thought it was about saving the Leinster Championship.

Distribute the development money evenly and Dublin will still mop the floor with Kildare and Meath. Whats your solution?

Dickie10

i can now genuinely see something being brought in to split dublin, thought it was cloud cuckoo stuff before but i think it will now come in within 10 years, it will be a marketing dept dream, the dublin dearby etc, seen as a huge rivalry. look what thwy have done with leinster v munster , how many people went to leinster rugby games in 1990? about 300? dublin gaa will go the same way, maybe keep the same tcounty board for a long time maybe introduce a dublin B team into the league? or a Fingal team and Dun Laoighre Rathdown team? try it in league for a while what harm would it do? the precedent is thier with Fingal in hurling

The Lost Sheep

Dickie10 wrote: »

i can now genuinely see something being brought in to split dublin, thought it was cloud cuckoo stuff before but i think it will now come in within 10 years, it will be a marketing dept dream, the dublin dearby etc, seen as a huge rivalry. look what thwy have done with leinster v munster , how many people went to leinster rugby games in 1990? about 300? dublin gaa will go the same way, maybe keep the same tcounty board for a long time maybe introduce a dublin B team into the league? or a Fingal team and Dun Laoighre Rathdown team? try it in league for a while what harm would it do? the precedent is thier with Fingal in hurling

Rugby analogy isnt right here though. Leinster, Munster were far from a big deal back then apart from games against touring New Zealand, Australia sides etc.
They started playing more often, in regular league all through the year and then the success happened.

Uncle Pierre

Leaving my little sideshow with $hifty aside, the simple fact of the matter is that some 15 years ago, the GAA embarked upon a massive funding programme in a manner and on a scale never seen before, all for the benefit of just one county.

It may have been well-intentioned at the time (as I've previously acknowledged), even if I personally consider it was unnecessary if the main thing it was born out of was a "perceived threat" from other sports. As I've also previously stated, to me, that attitude belongs to more rural areas in bygone days. The possibility that some young people in a large and multi-cultural city might opt for "foreign sports" like soccer and rugby rather than gaelic games shouldn't be seen as a threat, and instead as just a fact of life.

Might be different if Dublin GAA had genuinely been on its knees at the time, but it wasn't. Any Dublin supporter who claims otherwise can try tell people in most other counties the woes of "only" wining three provincial titles in ten years, and going a full eight years without winning an All-Ireland.

Anyway, the long-term result is that the programme proved massively successful for Dublin....and again, fair play to them for making the most of the opportunity they were granted....but it's created huge issues for the game as a whole.

The only thing even approaching the "Dublin Project" in the years since has been the East Leinster Project that was initiated in 2016. It may or may not pay off in the long run, but it's doubtful how much it can actually achieve in two of the counties where it started (Louth and particularly Wicklow - no disrespect to either!), because of how they're coming off such a low base in the first place. And even if it does pay off, those counties are still ten years behind Dublin, and then it just creates other problems for other counties.

I threw out a hypothetical a few pages back about a "Rejuvenate Cork" programme in hurling. I don't expect it to be taken seriously, and nor do I mean it to be. But if you consider that Cork hurling has gone through a leaner phase now than Dublin football had up to 2003, and that probably more young people in Cork are now playing soccer and rugby too, then in essence, what's the difference? But imagine the uproar there'd be if GAA HQ announced millions for Cork hurling development, and none for anybody else.

I'm all for coaching and games development, so long as it's done fairly, with a level playing field for all. But a multi-million euro and multi-year programme that's designed for the benefit of just one county doesn't sit easy with me, and never will.

dobman88

corny wrote: »

Is such an admission the point of the thread? I thought it was about saving the Leinster Championship.

Distribute the development money evenly and Dublin will still mop the floor with Kildare and Meath. Whats your solution?

I dont have a solution and thankfully, me or anyone else on this thread wont ever be required to create one. As was pointed out by kayroo, the gaa have the template to put this into practice in other counties the same way they have done with Dublin. They should be doing it.

Hammer Archer

Username Exists. wrote: »

Thats Kerrys centre of excellence paid for

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20335403.html

No centre of excellence in Dublin BTW just a club's pitch for winter training and an old christian brothers pitch in summer.

Fundraising. Something Dublin don't have to worry about anywhere near the extent that most other counties.
Didn't Dublin spend millions on Spawell a number of years ago? As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong), no work has been done on it and Dublin are now planning on spending more money on the old Hollystown golf course which is worth €15 million. Has there been any fundraising effort required for this? It's frightening that a county board can purchase a site for 5 million and leave it idle only to spend 3 times that on another site without any hassle whatsoever by the looks of it. We're trying to upgrade Pc Tailteann in Navan for years and there's been ridiculous amounts of fundraising efforts and requests for grants and funding and whatnot.

elefant

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because there's a much bigger catchment area and potential pool of players that could be convinced to take up the game at grassroots level, thus deserving of investment.

If we accept this as accurate, then it stands that Dublin will be the dominant force in gaelic football perpetually.

As such, inter county gaelic football as people have known and loved it will be finished. It will be a statistical anomaly any season that Dublin fail to win the all Ireland championship.

Scoundrel

highgiant1985 wrote: »

To me this is the nub of the problem. Larger player pool to pick from leads to a stronger squad. It's just maths really.

(i) I believe every child should have the opportunity to play and be involved so I wouldn't like to see any change to the funding models that would impact on under age.

(ii) However it also has to be acknowledged Dublin's dominance is killing the game. A strong Dublin is important to the championship but only where there's genuine competition. The easy option would be to divide the county in to two teams. There may be better options either. I don't claim to have a perfect solution but I do believe something has to change. I mean realistically can people see anyone but Dublin continuing to win Leinster for the next decade at least?

No county has a divine right to be strong so why is it ok for the GAA to fix it for Dublin to be strong?

Scoundrel

corny wrote: »

Is such an admission the point of the thread? I thought it was about saving the Leinster Championship.

Distribute the development money evenly and Dublin will still mop the floor with Kildare and Meath. Whats your solution?

And if they do after that fair enough but let's not compound and contribute to the inequality by over funding Dublin in the first place. Let's level the playing field if money has no bearing on it then what are ye so afraid of? Why dont ye want a level playing field?

corny

dobman88 wrote: »

I dont have a solution and thankfully, me or anyone else on this thread wont ever be required to create one. As was pointed out by kayroo, the gaa have the template to put this into practice in other counties the same way they have done with Dublin. They should be doing it.

There's no equivalence though, unless Meath and Kildare have huge non playing GAA centres i'm unaware of. I'm sure they can get some more kids playing but there's no Castleknock or a huge Southside club in waiting.

The development money was used to get children playing GAA in Dublin. It worked (something we should all applaud despite the affect on the county game) and now you have Dublin clubs with memberships and playing numbers that would probably entitle them to be a county teams in their right. Do you honestly believe taking away a few bob is going to stop these clubs producing players? Do you think the standard just falls away when the development money is redistributed? Some of the occasional posters (who are just noise on this) pushing the 'manufactured footballer' line can delude themselves into thinking it does but 100% they're wrong.

The standard pushed by the Dublin club scene now and then on into a well funded county team virtually assures Dublin a good team. They have a huge pool to choose from. As someone remarked, a player drops his standard even 1% and his place is taken by a quality player eager to make a mark. From their starting point (now) that is difficult with a capital D for Meath and Kildare to compete with. Development money or these templates you're talking about won't make a difference.

Kayroo (sorry Kayroo) is a champion because he takes the moderate line as a Dub.:rolleyes: That doesn't make him right.

dobman88

corny wrote: »

There's no equivalence though, unless Meath and Kildare have huge non playing GAA centres i'm unaware of. I'm sure they can get some more kids playing but there's no Castleknock or a huge Southside club in waiting.

The development money was used to get children playing GAA in Dublin. It worked (something we should all applaud despite the affect on the county game) and now you have Dublin clubs with memberships and playing numbers that would probably entitle them to be a county teams in their right. Do you honestly believe taking away a few bob is going to stop these clubs producing players? Do you think the standard just falls away when the development money is redistributed? Some of the occasional posters (who are just noise on this) pushing the 'manufactured footballer' line can delude themselves into thinking it does but 100% they're wrong.

The standard pushed by the Dublin club scene now and then on into a well funded county team virtually assures Dublin a good team. They have a huge pool to choose from. As someone remarked, a player drops his standard even 1% and his place is taken by a quality player eager to make a mark. From their starting point (now) that is difficult with a capital D for Meath and Kildare to compete with. Development money or these templates you're talking about won't make a difference.

Kayroo (sorry Kayroo) is a champion because he takes the moderate line as a Dub.:rolleyes: That doesn't make him right.

I know about and agree with everything you say. I never said players would stop being produced. Dublin is self sufficient at this stage and have their house in order so dont need as much money pumped into it anymore. It shouldn't just be taken away but should be reduced certainly.

The bit you say about development money not working. It's been proven to work emphatically with Dublin. So makes sense it should be rolled out.

corny

dobman88 wrote: »

The bit you say about development money not working. It's been proven to work emphatically with Dublin. So makes sense it should be rolled out.

There's no thought behind what you're saying. I've pointed out the lack of an equivalence. The previously untapped playing populations that the development money mobilised are unique to Dublin. It won't have the same impact elsewhere and thus won't address the disparity in standards.

The view that the money is the answer is simplistic in the extreme and certainly not the definitive view you thought it was.

Uncle Pierre

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

You're funny.

Here's a figure: 252 new Covid-19 cases announced in Ireland today.

But that's not my figure. I'm simply posting something that I saw elsewhere.

So is the figure worthless?

But on a more serious note....I posted the figures simply because somebody asked for them. They didn't ask for scrutiny or analysis of those figures, and nor did I purport to give them. It really is as simple as that.

It depends on the source. As in your case, if someone wrote "292 cases" on a piece of paper, then took a photo of it and tweeted it, then yes, I would say it is worthless.

There's a world of difference between a press release from an official body and a tweet of a photo of a piece of paper with some words and numbers on it. But, you know this.

dobman88

corny wrote: »

There's no thought behind what you're saying. I've pointed out the lack of an equivalence. The previously untapped playing populations that the development money mobilised are unique to Dublin. It won't have the same impact elsewhere and thus won't address the disparity in standards.

The view that the money is the answer is simplistic in the extreme and certainly not the definitive view you thought it was.

:pac: quite possibly one of the most patronising things I've had thrown at me on here and that's saying something.

We clearly have different views and to say that something flat out wont work in some counties when it is proven to work in another is naive at best. Make the money available to pay coaches or GDO or whatever in other counties to get kids playing and developing and see where it leads those counties in 10 years time. I'd be shocked if we didnt see a marked improvement.

Turfcutter

Well if Dublin fans are denying that money has anything to do with their dominance, then they shouldn't be bothered if it was distributed more equably...

Isn't that right?

DulchieLaois

I think the best solution is to boycott Re Leinster championship and the GAA will take notice

Scoundrel

Turfcutter wrote: »

Well if Dublin fans are denying that money has anything to do with their dominance, then they shouldn't be bothered if it was distributed more equably...

Isn't that right?

Indeed it is yet there seems to be fierce resistance to this for some reason I wonder why? The dublin arguement boils down to two things it's either the money makes no difference special group of players etc or we deserve the money we've more clubs players etc