The Leinster Championship is dead.

Tell me how

Bambi wrote: »

Munster is a province of two football teams

Leinster is a province of three

Both provinces have an occasional blip when a team outside of that number win a title, but thats it. Nobody was crying about that.

Nobody was crying when Kerry were walking through a Munster final straight in an All Ireland semi

If you want to break up the provincial system to make it all fair for all counties, go ahead, you want to break up the county system for the same reason go ahead at least that won't be fuelled by the usual anti dub whinging

Because it hadn't been coordinated and funded by the people supposed to be administering the entire organisation.

Do you think it is right that Dublin should receive ten times the funding per registered club player that other counties receive?

dobman88

hammerdub wrote: »

How come Dublin haven't won Leinster hurling over the last ten year with all the money.

Ah jesus. At least get basic facts correct if you're going to start with the whataboutery

timmyntc

Bambi wrote: »

Because they werent the greatest team to play the game?

Dublin 59 Leinster titles, Royallers 21. Only a problem now, apparently.

Wonder why nobody cried like this when Kilkenny won 11 out of 15 All Irelands and 16 out of 18 Leinsters?

Because its wasn't football? Nah, because it wasnt Dublin.

Where have you been the last 20 years?

People absolutely were complaining about KK's dominance in All Irelands, and attendances and viewership was down around that time as a result. Thankfully it didn't last - but that's because KK is a small county - Dublin is the most populous & the most funded.

They aren't going away you know.

nine fine irishmen

Is "per registered club player" the new "net spend"?

Username Exists.

There was a review in 2016 and additional funding was made available to Eastern counties other than Dublin. It's the East Leinster project. The idea is to provide extra underage development coaches for non Dublin counties.

It's up to your own clubs and county boards to apply for these coaches and use the development funds being made available.
Are the counties other than Dublin making full use of the funding available to them?

castletownman

I've said it before in relation to other sports. Followers of a dominant team, a detrimentally dominant team in relation to the competition in this case, are obviously going to be blinded by their team's success. So they can't really be reasoned with when a debate like this surfaces.

Fair play to Kayroo for his unbiased opinions earlier in the thread. Certainly bucked the trend.

And I see the argument made that people weren't complaining when Kilkenny were dominating Leinster a decade ago. Well, speaking as a Wexford supporter, I remember all too well the despondency at the time. It was disheartening and the province was at an all-time low ebb. And to be fair, Kilkenny didn't ever win ten in a row in the province either (the most they managed was "only" seven), and to dominate a competition with less teams in it isn't as starkly worrying as Dublin's current hegemony of Leinster with more competing counties.

And during their run of seven Leinster's in a row, never once did Kilkenny win a final by more than 20 points. The nearest they came to eclipsing that target was in 2008 when they hammered Wexford by 5-21 to 0-17. They won three of their seven finals in that spell by a double-digit margin. In contrast, Dublin have only failed to achieve double-figure victories four times in their ten consecutive Leinster final triumphs, and three of those pre-date the current five-in-row team. And theoretically, it's meant to be easier to compile a bigger score in hurling.

blanch152

nine fine irishmen wrote: »

Is "per registered club player" the new "net spend"?

Yes, and when you look into the fine print, it is per registered adult club player

Doesn't include the juveniles where the money is supposed to go, or the adult mentors who are not registered to play.

Tell me how

nine fine irishmen wrote: »

Is "per registered club player" the new "net spend"?

It's a very relevant comparison as to how one county is treated versus all others.
Shines a very bright light on things.

A less clear, but equally relevant point is that a significant expenditure for most inter-county setups is associated with travelling and for obvious reasons, Dublin aren't affected in this way as much as many other counties are.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. When Cuala announced their sponsorship deal with Amgen, Croke Park was used as a back drop for the publicity shots included in which was the President of the GAA and a prominent RTE GAA personality. All that for a club team. Cuala are an impressive team with some exceptional talent but that sort of attention for a club team is something most counties could only dream about.

timmyntc

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, and when you look into the fine print, it is per registered adult club player

Doesn't include the juveniles where the money is supposed to go, or the adult mentors who are not registered to play.

Even if it was the case that Dublin GAA spent the same amount of money per adult club player - it still wouldn't fix the disparity in inter-county teams.

Dublin with a much larger playing population, even if they had the same amount of € per club player, they'll have more club players at a given standard than other smaller counties, and will still end up on top.


While they definitely shouldnt be getting more money per player than other counties, to suggest that it's some kind of silver bullet that will fix everything and we'll have lovely even championships where any team could win it - that's just fantasy.

Uncle Pierre

Username Exists. wrote: »

There was a review in 2016 and additional funding was made available to Eastern counties other than Dublin. It's the East Leinster project. The idea is to provide extra underage development coaches for non Dublin counties.

It's up to your own clubs and county boards to apply for these coaches and use the development funds being made available.
Are the counties other than Dublin making full use of the funding available to them?

I'd be hugely surprised if any County Board is leaving behind money that's available to be snapped up for coaching, development, or anything else.

The issue is the amounts of money that are available. Whether you look at them as overall "per county" figures, or break them down on "per club" basis, "per registered player" basis, or any other relevant metric, there's been far more put into Dublin than anywhere else.

A relevant point that I think is often overlooked is that the "Rejuvenate Dublin" scheme was launched in response to a perceived threat from soccer and rugby. It was NOT in response to low gaelic football standards in Dublin. At the time of its launch, it had only been eight years since Dublin had won an All-Ireland, and they were still winning roughly half of all Leinster Senior Football titles.

They were already the dominant force in Leinster, with no real warning signs that were about to lose that dominant position anytime soon. Yet the GAA hierarchy decided to pump in millions in development funding, for fear that some young lads might choose other sports instead.

hammerdub

hammerdub wrote: »

How come Dublin haven't won Leinster hurling over the last ten year with all the money.

Give them time. They are getting there.

Scoundrel

timmyntc wrote: »

Even if it was the case that Dublin GAA spent the same amount of money per adult club player - it still wouldn't fix the disparity in inter-county teams.

Dublin with a much larger playing population, even if they had the same amount of € per club player, they'll have more club players at a given standard than other smaller counties, and will still end up on top.


While they definitely shouldnt be getting more money per player than other counties, to suggest that it's some kind of silver bullet that will fix everything and we'll have lovely even championships where any team could win it - that's just fantasy.

It is fundamentally wrong that Dublin, the county with the pre existing advantages in terms of ability to fund itself and population are being given significantly more funding by the GAA authorities than anyone else. In any other sport it would be deemed fixing or corruption.

Nobody is claiming that equalising funding will fix everything it is merely a first step towards some fairness and some form of level playing field. All counties are asking for is a level playing field surely we are entitled to that?

Never understood the mentality of some sports people who would happily see their team flatten all before it year in year out due to a superior funding and training setup. Where's the fun in that? It's boring as hell. There has to be at least some pretence of competition.

Username Exists.

Tell me how wrote: »

Because it hadn't been coordinated and funded by the people supposed to be administering the entire organisation.

Do you think it is right that Dublin should receive ten times the funding per registered club player that other counties receive?

Any figures for that?

Username Exists.

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, and when you look into the fine print, it is per registered adult club player

Doesn't include the juveniles where the money is supposed to go, or the adult mentors who are not registered to play.

I'd be interested in a link to the 'fine print' for context.

corny

The Leinster Championship is dead and its not an easy an fix. Dublin are absolutely crushing the spirit of the teams they play against.

I'm not convinced money will change things much. The Dublin clubs are churning out talent and its self sustaining now. Participation is what sustains it, not money.

You could spend millions on Meath/Kildare children, investing in their football education and Dublin will still be in a position to beat them regularly. And regularly is a problem because disheartened opposition won't put their best foot and reach their potential. Meath were nice to Dublin on Saturday. Sat back, admired their skills like the rest of us. Didn't think it was worth putting in an effort. As i say thats not easily redressed.

RoyalCelt

Hammer Archer wrote: »

2010 - 2019: Dublin 9, Meath 1.
2000 - 2009: Dublin 5, Meath 1, Kildare 1, Laois 1, Westmeath 1
1990 - 1999: Dublin 4, Meath 4, Kildare 1, Offaly 1
1980 - 1989: Dublin 4, Meath 3, Offaly 3
1970 - 1979: Dublin 6, Offaly 3, Meath 1
1960 - 1969: Dublin 3, Meath 3, Offaly 3, Longford 1
1950 - 1959: Dublin 3, Meath 3, Louth 3, Kildare 1

Dublin have never dominated Leinster like they have now so what you've said is provably false. The decade when they came closest to the current domination was from 1890 - 1899, and even then they "only" won 7 Leinster titles. As said in my previous post, they're the only football team to win 10 titles in a row. Even Kerry who Dublin fans always point to their dominance of Munster have never done that.

The above stats are damning for cute hoors from Dublin pretending this isn't abnormal and downplaying their dominance. They must have kerry grannies!

And the thing is every year that goes by the winning streak gets bigger. It's 10 in a row now but this decade will end with dublin getting all 10 and going to 19 in a row. Which means 24 in 25 years. Yet we'll still have dubs telling others to get their house in order or act like the opposition just didn't show up. Or how we must fix this situation without handicapping dublin.

True gaels in Dublin would want what's best for the sport not just themselves.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Never understood the mentality of some sports people who would happily see their team flatten all before it year in year out due to a superior funding and training setup. Where's the fun in that? It's boring as hell. There has to be at least some pretence of competition.

When you, as a sports fan, think back of fond memories, they are invariably close fought games or ones where you finally overcame your nemesis.

I'm from Munster but still have vivid memories of the Meath Dublin series from 1991 when Meath eventually prevailed with the odd point out of 121 scored across 4 games. To go from What Leinster was then to the mismatch it is now is simply the pendulum having swung much too far in one direction.

Stephen Cluxton is probably going to have fonder memories of some A vs B games within the Dublin the setup then he will have of most Leinster Championship games over the last 10 years.

Uncle Pierre

Username Exists. wrote: »

Any figures for that?

Here are some figures from the letter that give rise to this discussion in the first place:

Mayo GAA received approximately €22.30 per club registered player between 2010 and 2014 in coaching and games development money. Tyrone received €21 and Kerry €19. Dublin GAA received €270.70 per club-registered player during the same period. The figures for smaller counties within Leinster are not known to the writer.

BrianBoru00

Dublin is a perfect storm .
The county board has obviously got very good personnel - That's not to say they are better than Kilkennys or Carlows but they seem to be maximising potential.

a massive part of the problem is the Leinster Council.
Why don't they grow a pair and give counties home fixtures as Dublin have had for virtually all of their Championship matches. When they do go out of town its usually a neutral venue. Its a spineless and narrow minded practice from the Leinster council.

Why don't they try to change it up -Give Dublin a bye to the final and allow the other ten counties play off be it in round robin or knockout to get to the final and win for a chance to play Dublin. It will be more likely to produce and prepare a team to be competitive against Dublin and reduce the hammerings.

It's not Dublins fault.

Split Dublin if needs be but that should probably be Dublin's decision.
This split should have happened in conjunction with the funding if it was going to be a fair system and produce three power houses in the capital.
Personally I wouldn't like to see Dublin split but when I hear people saying "Oh Dublin just have great people in place to be able to secure massive sponsorship deals" it's a bit rich (pardon the pun) - This should be included as centralised funding and distributed fairly to counties who don't have the massive advantages

Scoundrel

Scoundrel wrote: »

Not comparable at all for obvious reasons read the letter for a start. From 1995 to 2005 6 different teams won leinster since then only 2 and Dublin have won 14 of the last 15.

From 1995 to 2005 only two teams won Munster. And since then, up until yesterday, only 2 teams had won it also, with Kerry having won 9 of the previous 10. I'd call that comparable.

Same with Connacht, btw.......3 teams in the ten year period and 3 teams since, with Mayo taking 6 of the last 10.

jmayo wrote: »

Leinster championship has been dead for years.

As has Munster. In fact, Munster has been lopsided since the formation of the GAA but nobody gives a bollocks about that. Funny, eh?

jmayo wrote: »

Back around 2007, 2008 you were getting around 80,000 for Leinster final matches involving Dublin.
But it has dropped at low as under 40,000 and last year was 47,000 with the year before 41,000.

Dubs aren't interested anymore in Leinster as it is a cake walk.

And you know for a fact they're all Dublin fans who stayed away? Or maybe the majority of them were from other counties who never bothered looking for tickets to get whopped by the greatest team to ever play the game?

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Dublin fans seem to take this discussion very personally which I find strange. I haven't seen anyone who wasn't on the wind up blame Dublin for this.

The reason behind that, mostly, is because almost all of the criticism is coming from the also-rans, the people who would be at the top table were it not for Dublin being so good. It's impossible not to take it personally when it is 100% coming from a vindictive, personal point of attack from the get go. It is no great surprise that almost all of it is coming from Kerry- and Mayomen.

People can crib on here all they want about it being for the good of the game and how they want the likes of Longford and Westmeath to do well......when their only solution is to handicap Dublin, then the mask slips. If they really wanted the smaller counties to be in with a shot, they'd be trying to improve them instead of hobbling Dublin to improve their own county's only real chance at an All Ireland medal.

And that's it, in a nutshell. Come up with a real solution and put it forward. If it has merit, it will be entertained. But turning around and saying "Laois wont stand a chance against the Dubs, so I think they should be split in four, so that Kerry and Mayo will win it" when Laois wouldn't stand a chance against either Kerry or Mayo just smacks of envy and jealousy and good old fashioned begrudgery.

Same with the point above about the provincial stuff. "Dublin are so dominant recently.....yeah, but Kerry have been riding roughshod over the rest since Kingdom come......BUT THE DUBBBBZZZ!!!!".

It's a bull**** argument, tainted with bias and should not be entertained. Kerry have more All-Irelands than Cork have Munster titles. Think about that for a minute. The 2nd place horse in a 2-horse race has won the provincial title fewer times than the 1st place horse has won the entire thing. And the Dubs / Leinster is the problem? Get your own house in order before casting aspersions.

Username Exists.

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Here are some figures from the letter that give rise to this discussion in the first place:

Mayo GAA received approximately €22.30 per club registered player between 2010 and 2014 in coaching and games development money. Tyrone received €21 and Kerry €19. Dublin GAA received €270.70 per club-registered player during the same period. The figures for smaller counties within Leinster are not known to the writer.

That's just the author of the letter dividing underage development funding by the number of adult players. That's not fact.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

From 1995 to 2005 only two teams won Munster. And since then, up until yesterday, only 2 teams had won it also, with Kerry having won 9 of the previous 10. I'd call that comparable.

Same with Connacht, btw.......3 teams in the ten year period and 3 teams since, with Mayo taking 6 of the last 10.




As has Munster. In fact, Munster has been lopsided since the formation of the GAA but nobody gives a bollocks about that. Funny, eh?




And you know for a fact they're all Dublin fans who stayed away? Or maybe the majority of them were from other counties who never bothered looking for tickets to get whopped by the greatest team to ever play the game?



The reason behind that, mostly, is because almost all of the criticism is coming from the also-rans, the people who would be at the top table were it not for Dublin being so good. It's impossible not to take it personally when it is 100% coming from a vindictive, personal point of attack from the get go. It is no great surprise that almost all of it is coming from Kerry- and Mayomen.

People can crib on here all they want about it being for the good of the game and how they want the likes of Longford and Westmeath to do well......when their only solution is to handicap Dublin, then the mask slips. If they really wanted the smaller counties to be in with a shot, they'd be trying to improve them instead of hobbling Dublin to improve their own county's only real chance at an All Ireland medal.

And that's it, in a nutshell. Come up with a real solution and put it forward. If it has merit, it will be entertained. But turning around and saying "Laois wont stand a chance against the Dubs, so I think they should be split in four, so that Kerry and Mayo will win it" when Laois wouldn't stand a chance against either Kerry or Mayo just smacks of envy and jealousy and good old fashioned begrudgery.

Same with the point above about the provincial stuff. "Dublin are so dominant recently.....yeah, but Kerry have been riding roughshod over the rest since Kingdom come......BUT THE DUBBBBZZZ!!!!".

It's a bull**** argument, tainted with bias and should not be entertained. Kerry have more All-Irelands than Cork have Munster titles. Think about that for a minute. The 2nd place horse in a 2-horse race has won the provincial title fewer times than the 1st place horse has won the entire thing. And the Dubs / Leinster is the problem? Get your own house in order before casting aspersions.

You should have had a read of the thread before responding with this. Your central points have already been debunked, namely, the role in the organisation itself funding the disparity which has emerged. Your use of Kerry so strongly in your argument in fact weakens it as it shows how they got to a period of dominance because of a sustained organic development of players in a county which was overwhelmingly focused on football (similar story in KK where you can replace football with hurling).
This was not the case in Dublin, in fact, it was the opposite in that they always had the greater numbers and the advantage of Croke Park being their home stadium (please don't suggest otherwise) and it still took a sustained period of huge investment to get them to a place of dominance.

RoyalCelt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

From 1995 to 2005 only two teams won Munster. And since then, up until yesterday, only 2 teams had won it also, with Kerry having won 9 of the previous 10. I'd call that comparable.

Same with Connacht, btw.......3 teams in the ten year period and 3 teams since, with Mayo taking 6 of the last 10.




As has Munster. In fact, Munster has been lopsided since the formation of the GAA but nobody gives a bollocks about that. Funny, eh?




And you know for a fact they're all Dublin fans who stayed away? Or maybe the majority of them were from other counties who never bothered looking for tickets to get whopped by the greatest team to ever play the game?



The reason behind that, mostly, is because almost all of the criticism is coming from the also-rans, the people who would be at the top table were it not for Dublin being so good. It's impossible not to take it personally when it is 100% coming from a vindictive, personal point of attack from the get go. It is no great surprise that almost all of it is coming from Kerry- and Mayomen.

People can crib on here all they want about it being for the good of the game and how they want the likes of Longford and Westmeath to do well......when their only solution is to handicap Dublin, then the mask slips. If they really wanted the smaller counties to be in with a shot, they'd be trying to improve them instead of hobbling Dublin to improve their own county's only real chance at an All Ireland medal.

And that's it, in a nutshell. Come up with a real solution and put it forward. If it has merit, it will be entertained. But turning around and saying "Laois wont stand a chance against the Dubs, so I think they should be split in four, so that Kerry and Mayo will win it" when Laois wouldn't stand a chance against either Kerry or Mayo just smacks of envy and jealousy and good old fashioned begrudgery.

Same with the point above about the provincial stuff. "Dublin are so dominant recently.....yeah, but Kerry have been riding roughshod over the rest since Kingdom come......BUT THE DUBBBBZZZ!!!!".

It's a bull**** argument, tainted with bias and should not be entertained. Kerry have more All-Irelands than Cork have Munster titles. Think about that for a minute. The 2nd place horse in a 2-horse race has won the provincial title fewer times than the 1st place horse has won the entire thing. And the Dubs / Leinster is the problem? Get your own house in order before casting aspersions.

Your last paragraph. The difference is there's a possibility for kerry to beaten and similar to kilkenny they're not a county with the ability to get to dublins level and keep it going forever.

If leinster continues until 2030 you'll have won 24/25. Does any panel in Leinster outside Dublin even have a leinster medal anymore? I think Ross Munnelly from Laois is the only one but he won't be around much longer.

The other side is will dublin dominate the all Ireland going forward and do 10 in a row and hammer all before them? The rot that set into leinster will hit the rest but not as much as they at least have provincial honors to play for.

Uncle Pierre

Username Exists. wrote: »

That's just the author of the letter dividing underage development funding by the number of adult players. That's not fact.

I don't know what exactly you're looking for here, or what you expect me or anybody else to produce by way of figures.

You asked "any figures for that?" in response to how somebody else asked if it's right that Dublin receives "ten times the funding per registered club player than other counties".

I pointed you towards figures in the John Connellan letter that gives figures per club-registered player for a number of counties. They actually show that the Dublin figures are more than ten times the figures for other counties.

If you've an issue with those figures or how they were calculated, I'm afraid you'll have to take it up with John Connellan, not with me. I hear he's on Twitter these days.....

EICVD

& Westmeath have taken Kildares mantle as being the biggest whingers

Scoundrel

Deleted User wrote: »

From 1995 to 2005 only two teams won Munster. And since then, up until yesterday, only 2 teams had won it also, with Kerry having won 9 of the previous 10. I'd call that comparable.

Same with Connacht, btw.......3 teams in the ten year period and 3 teams since, with Mayo taking 6 of the last 10.




As has Munster. In fact, Munster has been lopsided since the formation of the GAA but nobody gives a bollocks about that. Funny, eh?




And you know for a fact they're all Dublin fans who stayed away? Or maybe the majority of them were from other counties who never bothered looking for tickets to get whopped by the greatest team to ever play the game?



The reason behind that, mostly, is because almost all of the criticism is coming from the also-rans, the people who would be at the top table were it not for Dublin being so good. It's impossible not to take it personally when it is 100% coming from a vindictive, personal point of attack from the get go. It is no great surprise that almost all of it is coming from Kerry- and Mayomen.

People can crib on here all they want about it being for the good of the game and how they want the likes of Longford and Westmeath to do well......when their only solution is to handicap Dublin, then the mask slips. If they really wanted the smaller counties to be in with a shot, they'd be trying to improve them instead of hobbling Dublin to improve their own county's only real chance at an All Ireland medal.

And that's it, in a nutshell. Come up with a real solution and put it forward. If it has merit, it will be entertained. But turning around and saying "Laois wont stand a chance against the Dubs, so I think they should be split in four, so that Kerry and Mayo will win it" when Laois wouldn't stand a chance against either Kerry or Mayo just smacks of envy and jealousy and good old fashioned begrudgery.

Same with the point above about the provincial stuff. "Dublin are so dominant recently.....yeah, but Kerry have been riding roughshod over the rest since Kingdom come......BUT THE DUBBBBZZZ!!!!".

It's a bull**** argument, tainted with bias and should not be entertained. Kerry have more All-Irelands than Cork have Munster titles. Think about that for a minute. The 2nd place horse in a 2-horse race has won the provincial title fewer times than the 1st place horse has won the entire thing. And the Dubs / Leinster is the problem? Get your own house in order before casting aspersions.

This is horse manure and frankly self serving bull**** which has all been answered throughout the thread. Comparing Connacht a province with 5 counties with Leinster?? Munster a province where most of the counties only focus on hurling?? That is so disingenous you can't actually believe that?

The other counties would easily get their houses in order if they were given 17 million quid from the GAA authorities and didn't have to spend any of it on travel or county grounds. The real reason for going on the defensive is that deep down you know its wrong you know its corrupt but you don't care because it benefits you.

Scoundrel

Username Exists. wrote: »

Any figures for that?

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534

Uncle Pierre

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Here are some figures from the letter that give rise to this discussion in the first place:

Mayo GAA received approximately €22.30 per club registered player between 2010 and 2014 in coaching and games development money. Tyrone received €21 and Kerry €19. Dublin GAA received €270.70 per club-registered player during the same period. The figures for smaller counties within Leinster are not known to the writer.

We are in severe danger of rehashing arguments from threads past, but why would you use "games development money per registered player" as a metric? Games development money is spent on, I dunno, developing the game within the county? Surely the vast majority of that money would be spent on trying to encourage new players and better attract young talent away from Soccer etc.?

What are the figures like if you used "per non-GAA playing child that could be potentially welcomed into the GAA"?

Dyr

Scoundrel wrote: »

This is horse manure and frankly self serving bull**** which has all been answered throughout the thread. Comparing Connacht a province with 5 counties with Leinster?? Munster a province where most of the counties only focus on hurling?? That is so disingenous you can't actually believe that?
.

Connacht is dominated by three teams, Munster by two, Leinster by three. So whats the difference? Other than a certain Leinster team not being worth a tuppenny curse these days