The Leinster Championship is dead.

robbiezero

Bambi wrote: »

Dublins dominence is unprecedented. but it was different when Kilkenny was doing it. Get off the stage

Don't worry, this great Dublin team will fade just like that great Kilkenny team did. When they do , Leinster will still be full of no hoper countys in hurling and football and you'll stop pretending that you could give a sh**t about them once Meath arent being bet out the gate in Leinster finals.

When do you think this will happen?
Since 2015, the following are gone from the team or effectively gone.

2 Brogans,
Connolly,
Michael Dara McAuley
McCaffrey
Rory O'Carroll
Philly McMahon
Cian O'Sullivan
Paddy Andrews
Paul Flynn
McManamon

4 players of the year in that list.
If anything the Dubs are stronger than ever and the gap to the chasing pack is probably bigger now than at any time in the last 5/6 years.

Uncle Pierre

corny wrote: »

My opinion is that the talk of development money is irrelevant.

If this truly is your opinion, then my opinion is that your opinion is wrong.

The extra millions of development money that have gone to Dublin over the past 15 years or so are a large part of the reason why Dublin have become so dominant and the Leinster Championship has become so uncompetitive. So talk about that development money is far from irrelevant. Instead, it's actually one of the most relevant points of all.

the kelt

bennyl10 wrote: »

No other country has ever been lumped with so much central funding it would be difficult for them not to win

It’s systematic financial doping.

The problem with this argument always come back to the same thing and the same argument. It is financial doping, its is grossly unfair.

But its not Dublins problem or Dublins fault and time and time again Dublin end up getting blamed which completely misses the point. It ends up being a Dublin v the rest of Leinster etc argument.

Dublin put their plans together for this money, asked for it and got it. Fair play to them what they have done with it is phenomenal.

But it isnt up to Dublin to say no its alright we have enough we dont want the money youre willing to give us. If our own County Board down here done that they would be lynched and rightly so.

Making this a Dublin v the rest issue misses the point of who at fault which is the GAA at a higher level.

And from someone whos been involved in putting plans together and ignored by the GAA hierarchy for funds its incredibly frustrating.

People here have scoffed at the idea of teams boycotting the Leinster football championship, that idea isnt being considered because other counties dont want to have a go at thr Dubs because they are so good, its because of frustration at not being considered when they put their own plans in place to improve things.

Its not an anti Dub thing, its almost akin to a strike at this stage

elefant

Bambi wrote: »

Kerry Group a major international business with 7 billion in revenue, thats some level of yerra to give it the beal bocht.

Impressively disingenuous response there.

robbiezero

corny wrote: »

You need to read the thread again. I'm not going to go in circles here. My first post to Dobman remarked that the point of this thread is not the redistribution of the development money...its reinvigorating the Leinster Championship. My opinion is that the talk of development money is irrelevant. Do you what you like with it. Won't make a blind bit of difference to the inter county game now. Dublin are too strong and the effect the money would have elsewhere wouldn't be the same. I've explained this.

If you want to talk about solutions that will make Leinster competitive again (split Dublin up/amalgamate counties, equalise inter county spends, removing Dublin from Leinster etc) i'm all ears.

I agree with this. The money awakened a sleeping giant in terms of population and that genie is not ever going back into its box.

I'm living in Dublin about 20 years, usually around the D5 area. I remember a time when the pubs in the area would be mobbed with people celebrating a first round Leinster win over the likes of Wexford or Offaly or Laois.
If you gave the Euromillions to any of these counties it is not ever going to bring them up to Dublins level again.

ArielAtom

Firstly, Leinster is a joke. Unfortunately that is what it is. Does anyone really think that any Leinster team other than Dublin would challenge in another province? They wouldn't. They are poor teams. This is not the fault of Dublin. The development funding ended 3yrs ago. It was aimed at developing GAA in schools (Primary level) to tray and maintain the GAA in the capital. It has not gone into any intercounty setup from development squads to Senior in either code. To an extent it has worked, but there is still very little take up from the new Irish who have settled here. Dublin is a very diverse county with many people from other counties living and working there. The GAA population is not as large as some would say. Yes something has to be done and starting with developing coaching structures in other counties would be great. i know of some Dublin coaches who give workshops in other counties. Croke Park needs to roll this out to every county. The online bashing of Dublin in sometimes comical. Try venting this at the GAA and forget using Dublin as the tool to do it. Positivity always works. So develop a coaching program and I guarantee that every county will benefit.

Dyr

bennyl10 wrote: »

It’s systematic financial doping.

And we hit the Ewan McKenna jackpot, Financial Dopring, feel free to search this forum for that dozy being debunked.

What this comes down to is whinging that a three horse race in Leinster is now a one horse race and the solution is to handicap the one horse thats still running because Meath and Kildare know that their horses couldnt win a Tramore Donkey Derby but havent the werewithal to do anything about it.

I mean we could move Dublin into Connacht or Munster, like we did with Galway in the hurling, but I assume all the whingers would be happy to accept the same reason d'etre that Connacht did: that Leinster football is dead and the Leinster provincial championship be abolished.

No takers? Why not? Its the title of the thread after all

Or you could accept Dublin win Leinster for the forseeable, just like Antrim have won the Ulster hurling championships about 20 times in a row, which none of the true gaels in here seem to have the slightest problem with

corny

corny wrote: »

You need to read the thread again. I'm not going to go in circles here. My first post to Dobman remarked that the point of this thread is not the redistribution of the development money...its reinvigorating the Leinster Championship. My opinion is that the talk of development money is irrelevant. Do you what you like with it. Won't make a blind bit of difference to the inter county game now. Dublin are too strong and the effect the money would have elsewhere wouldn't be the same. I've explained this.

If you want to talk about solutions that will make Leinster competitive again (split Dublin up/amalgamate counties, equalise inter county spends, removing Dublin from Leinster etc) i'm all ears.

There's no point in doing any of the far FAR more drastic options until you first remove the obvious imbalance that can be addressed without undermining the concept of inter-county football.

Take the money away, put a plan in place to disproportionately favour other Leinster counties. Give it a little time and make sure Westmeath, Carlow, Meath, Kildare etc know that the money is coming and will keep coming. Let them develop and get stronger. How is this not just the most obvious and easily accepted idea??

If it doesn't work then look at more deep structural changes but until you remove the hand from the financial scale you can't be sure it won't help equalise.

Dyr

elefant wrote: »

Impressively disingenuous response there.

You think Kerry were ever standing outside Supervalu with buckets?

Best funded county in the GAA by far until Dublin got its act together un Costello

Did you smash it

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

If this truly is your opinion, then my opinion is that your opinion is wrong.

The extra millions of development money that have gone to Dublin over the past 15 years or so are a large part of the reason why Dublin have become so dominant and the Leinster Championship has become so uncompetitive. So talk about that development money is far from irrelevant. Instead, it's actually one of the most relevant points of all.

I wouldn’t agree, the reasons for Dublins dominance are more complex than that. The reason Dublin dominate are complex socio economic (culchies going to college in Dublin, moving to the suburbs and bringing GAA traditions with them) and population.

If you think cutting Dublins funding will bring Dublin back to the pack then you couldn’t be more wrong, it’s not an important enough factor at senior intercounty level to do anything like that.

Tombo2001

ArielAtom wrote: »

Firstly, Leinster is a joke. Unfortunately that is what it is. Does anyone really think that any Leinster team other than Dublin would challenge in another province? They wouldn't. They are poor teams. This is not the fault of Dublin. The development funding ended 3yrs ago. It was aimed at developing GAA in schools (Primary level) to tray and maintain the GAA in the capital. It has not gone into any intercounty setup from development squads to Senior in either code. To an extent it has worked, but there is still very little take up from the new Irish who have settled here. Dublin is a very diverse county with many people from other counties living and working there. The GAA population is not as large as some would say. Yes something has to be done and starting with developing coaching structures in other counties would be great. i know of some Dublin coaches who give workshops in other counties. Croke Park needs to roll this out to every county. The online bashing of Dublin in sometimes comical. Try venting this at the GAA and forget using Dublin as the tool to do it. Positivity always works. So develop a coaching program and I guarantee that every county will benefit.

This is a bit unfair. Dublin are better than Meath yes.

There are 8 provincial finalists in the country this year - and I would rank Meath as being 4th best of those teams. We will find out at semifinal stage just how well Cavan would fare if there were in the Leinster championship.

On your other point - I would disagree. The gaa population in Dublin is very significant and its growing. Its by far the number one sport at underage. One thing Dublin has that other counties dont have is a concentration of superclubs. Clubs with 2000 plus mentors. Clubs that can put out 5 or 6 teams at U10 in Boys and Girls. Cuala, Vincents, Kilmacud, Boden, Na Fianna, Castleknock, Portmarnock...... etc etc etc . And a second tier of very strong clubs below that, Howth, Maurs, Ballinteer, Sylvesters. Membership has grown substantially in these clubs in the past 20 years.

Cilldara_2000

ArielAtom wrote: »

Firstly, Leinster is a joke. Unfortunately that is what it is. Does anyone really think that any Leinster team other than Dublin would challenge in another province? They wouldn't. They are poor teams. This is not the fault of Dublin. The development funding ended 3yrs ago. It was aimed at developing GAA in schools (Primary level) to tray and maintain the GAA in the capital. It has not gone into any intercounty setup from development squads to Senior in either code. To an extent it has worked, but there is still very little take up from the new Irish who have settled here. Dublin is a very diverse county with many people from other counties living and working there. The GAA population is not as large as some would say. Yes something has to be done and starting with developing coaching structures in other counties would be great. i know of some Dublin coaches who give workshops in other counties. Croke Park needs to roll this out to every county. The online bashing of Dublin in sometimes comical. Try venting this at the GAA and forget using Dublin as the tool to do it. Positivity always works. So develop a coaching program and I guarantee that every county will benefit.

BS. Kildare beat the Ulster Champions just over a month ago when both were still in the hunt for promotion, trying to avoid relegation and had something to play for.

the kelt

Bambi wrote: »

And we hit the Ewan McKenna jackpot, Financial Dopring, feel free to search this forum for that dozy being debunked.

What this comes down to is whinging that a three horse race in Leinster is now a one horse race and the solution is to handicap the one horse thats still running because Meath and Kildare know that their horses couldnt win a Tramore Donkey Derby but havent the werewithal to do anything about it.

I mean we could move Dublin into Connacht or Munster, like we did with Galway in the hurling, but I assume all the whingers would be happy to accept the same reason d'etre that Connacht did: that Leinster football is dead and the Leinster provincial championship be abolished.

No takers? Why not? Its the title of the thread after all

Or you could accept Dublin win Leinster for the forseeable, just like Antrim have won the Ulster hurling championships about 20 times in a row, which none of the true gaels in here seem to have the slightest problem with

And as much as i said earlier the situation is not the fault of Dublin the other rhetoric that anyone who speaks out about the situation is just a whinger is a whole other issue altogether which again ignores the issue at hand.

And round and round we go.

dobman88

Bambi wrote: »

You think Kerry were ever standing outside Supervalu with buckets?

Best funded county in the GAA by far until Dublin got its act together un Costello

I dont think anyone has issue with the private sponsorship. Like AIG or Kerry Group or JP funding Limerick. What a sponsor agrees with a particular county is between them imo. The issue is the distribution from the GAA itself has been massively weighted in favour of Dublin which is inarguable.

Uncle Pierre

ArielAtom wrote: »

Firstly, Leinster is a joke. Unfortunately that is what it is. Does anyone really think that any Leinster team other than Dublin would challenge in another province? They wouldn't. They are poor teams. This is not the fault of Dublin. The development funding ended 3yrs ago. It was aimed at developing GAA in schools (Primary level) to tray and maintain the GAA in the capital. It has not gone into any intercounty setup from development squads to Senior in either code. To an extent it has worked, but there is still very little take up from the new Irish who have settled here. Dublin is a very diverse county with many people from other counties living and working there. The GAA population is not as large as some would say. Yes something has to be done and starting with developing coaching structures in other counties would be great. i know of some Dublin coaches who give workshops in other counties. Croke Park needs to roll this out to every county. The online bashing of Dublin in sometimes comical. Try venting this at the GAA and forget using Dublin as the tool to do it. Positivity always works. So develop a coaching program and I guarantee that every county will benefit.

An interesting exercise in both acknowledging the problem and still denying it at the same time.

I for one am not bashing the Dubs. I've already said fair play to them for making the most of the opportunities and funding they were granted. I just don't think they should have been granted them in the first place, when no other county was afforded them in the same manner.

You're absolutely correct that every other county would benefit too, if they were allowed to develop a coaching programme in the same way and with the same level of funding (per player, or per head of population, or whatever way you want to measure it). But the problems are:

1 - That's not going to happen any time soon, because of the sheer amount of money that would be involved.
2 - Even if it happened tomorrow, every other county is already some 15 years behind Dublin in this regard anyway.

bucketybuck

Bambi wrote: »

Because the greatest team to have played the game is this Dublin team

Which one?

Because the thing that everybody said would happen has now actually happened. That greatest team ever has now pretty much all gone and yet Dublin barely missed a beat, they still have by far the best squad of footballers in the entire country. They are leaving All stars like Howard and Mannion on the bench, these aren't lads past their prime, they are lads in their mid 20's who would be automatic starters on any other team yet the talent pool is so deep that they are already replaceable.

It was a "greatest team ever", now it is a conveyor belt of the best footballers in the country, just how do you think that happens? Pure luck?

It frustrating that in this discussion people cannot see past the surface level "jealousy" aspect and recognise that things have fundamentally changed. It used to be that a good group of players could come through at the same time and bring success, that possibility used to be there for any county. But those days are dead and gone, in an era of sports science the team with the most resources will win and unfortunately we have one team with not only the most resources, but the most resources by an order of magnitude.

Dublin are cantering to their 6th All Ireland in a row, they won 7 of the last 9, and they are doing it while bringing in multiple new players every year without any drop in quality. This isn't just a fluke lads.

Uncle Pierre

Did you smash it wrote: »

If you think cutting Dublins funding will bring Dublin back to the pack then you couldn’t be more wrong, it’s not an important enough factor at senior intercounty level to do anything like that.

Do you honestly believe that putting vast amounts of money and resources into underage coaching over a number of years won't pay off for senior teams a few years later?

If so, why do any of us bother with underage coaching at all? Am I wasting my time in putting in hundreds of hours each year in my club each year in coaching boys aged from 4 up to 17, in the hope of our senior teams being good enough to challenge for county titles in the future?

Did you smash it

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that putting vast amounts of money and resources into underage coaching over a number of years won't pay off for senior teams a few years later?

If so, why do any of us bother with underage coaching at all? Am I wasting my time in putting in hundreds of hours each year in my club each year in coaching boys aged from 4 up to 17, in the hope of our senior teams being good enough to challenge for county titles in the future?

The funding is a great money spinner for clubs and the GAA. For the price of a GPO you get huge money in revenue from membership for kids. It only really works in very populated areas with loads of kids. That’s why they do it so much in Dublin.

I think Dublin’s dominance has ruined Leinster but If you think cutting this funding off will change things much then you are going to be really disappointed.

ArielAtom

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

BS. Kildare beat the Ulster Champions just over a month ago when both were still in the hunt for promotion, trying to avoid relegation and had something to play for.

That was league. Meath beat Kildare, then see what happened to Meath. I'm not gloating just pointing out the age old league v championship.

ArielAtom

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

An interesting exercise in both acknowledging the problem and still denying it at the same time.

I for one am not bashing the Dubs. I've already said fair play to them for making the most of the opportunities and funding they were granted. I just don't think they should have been granted them in the first place, when no other county was afforded them in the same manner.

You're absolutely correct that every other county would benefit too, if they were allowed to develop a coaching programme in the same way and with the same level of funding (per player, or per head of population, or whatever way you want to measure it). But the problems are:

1 - That's not going to happen any time soon, because of the sheer amount of money that would be involved.
2 - Even if it happened tomorrow, every other county is already some 15 years behind Dublin in this regard anyway.

At no stage do I deny it. If you have interpreted it that way you have misread me. I am acknowledging and offering up a solution by way of funding other counties. Dublin however should not be hindered, or is it a handicap style system that would work for the majority? So what is the answer then. I am not having a go at you, but the amount of on-line bitching that goes on is painful. Just look at the Twitter man from Kildare and his merry band of followers. They at no stage have offered up a solution, it's all Dublin's fault is the sum of their input. I'd love to have the answer but alas i think it is a very complex one. I have stated that Limerick have so far been the only county to ask Dublin for assistance in developing a structured approach to underage development in their county.

ArielAtom

Tombo2001 wrote: »

This is a bit unfair. Dublin are better than Meath yes.

There are 8 provincial finalists in the country this year - and I would rank Meath as being 4th best of those teams. We will find out at semifinal stage just how well Cavan would fare if there were in the Leinster championship.

On your other point - I would disagree. The gaa population in Dublin is very significant and its growing. Its by far the number one sport at underage. One thing Dublin has that other counties dont have is a concentration of superclubs. Clubs with 2000 plus mentors. Clubs that can put out 5 or 6 teams at U10 in Boys and Girls. Cuala, Vincents, Kilmacud, Boden, Na Fianna, Castleknock, Portmarnock...... etc etc etc . And a second tier of very strong clubs below that, Howth, Maurs, Ballinteer, Sylvesters. Membership has grown substantially in these clubs in the past 20 years.

I assume you meant members and not mentors. i know we are a big club, but 2k mentors!!! I agree that the numbers do make a difference, but I will add to that that our club motto is participation and retention, that is all players at all levels. That does not happen. Anyway, the GAA is 1st and about club, county comes 2nd

Open the Pubs

Very good discussion on OTB here, some great points from Anthony Moyles and John Connellan.

Dyr

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Clubs with 2000 plus mentors. Clubs that can put out 5 or 6 teams at U10 in Boys and Girls. Cuala, Vincents, Kilmacud, Boden, Na Fianna, Castleknock, Portmarnock...... etc etc etc . And a second tier of very strong clubs below that, Howth, Maurs, Ballinteer, Sylvesters. Membership has grown substantially in these clubs in the past 20 years.

DId you mean mentors or members? Either way, last time I checked Cuala was the biggests club in Ireland and had about 1500 not 2000 plus members

Uncle Pierre

Bambi wrote: »

DId you mean mentors or members? Either way, last time I checked Cuala was the biggests club in Ireland and had about 1500 not 2000 plus members

Bit of a side issue here, but according to the website of Ballyboden St. Enda's, they alone have 3,000 members:
https://www.ballyboden.ie/50th-anniversary-information-meeting/

It's in the second paragraph, under the "Club Chairman" heading.

bennyl10

Bambi wrote: »

And we hit the Ewan McKenna jackpot, Financial Dopring, feel free to search this forum for that dozy being debunked.

What this comes down to is whinging that a three horse race in Leinster is now a one horse race and the solution is to handicap the one horse thats still running because Meath and Kildare know that their horses couldnt win a Tramore Donkey Derby but havent the werewithal to do anything about it.

I mean we could move Dublin into Connacht or Munster, like we did with Galway in the hurling, but I assume all the whingers would be happy to accept the same reason d'etre that Connacht did: that Leinster football is dead and the Leinster provincial championship be abolished.

No takers? Why not? Its the title of the thread after all

Or you could accept Dublin win Leinster for the forseeable, just like Antrim have won the Ulster hurling championships about 20 times in a row, which none of the true gaels in here seem to have the slightest problem with

But financial doping is the only word for it

The GAA have pumped money into Dublin, at the expense and detriment of other counties, in order to ensure success going forward

That’s the definition.

The GaA have destroyed the football championship, through their policy of Dublin first

Uncle Pierre

Did you smash it wrote: »

The funding is a great money spinner for clubs and the GAA. For the price of a GPO you get huge money in revenue from membership for kids. It only really works in very populated areas with loads of kids. That’s why they do it so much in Dublin.

I think Dublin’s dominance has ruined Leinster but If you think cutting this funding off will change things much then you are going to be really disappointed.

All I'll say here is that in several years of being involved in both coaching and administration at both club and county level, I've never once heard anybody make a statement along the lines of "let's get a GPO in, because it's great for revenue".

I'll agree that membership fees from underage players seem to be a great money-spinner for Dublin clubs, though. From the Ballyboden website that I refer to above, I can see that their annual membership fees for an underage player are €200.

By way of contrast, in my club, it's €25.

But again - side issue.

Did you smash it

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

All I'll say here is that in several years of being involved in both coaching and administration at both club and county level, I've never once heard anybody make a statement along the lines of "let's get a GPO in, because it's great for revenue".

I'll agree that membership fees from underage players seem to be a great money-spinner for Dublin clubs, though. From the Ballyboden website that I refer to above, I can see that their annual membership fees for an underage player are €200.

By way of contrast, in my club, it's €25.

But again - side issue.

It’s great for revenue if you are in an urban club with a huge catchment area. If you’re in a country club in a village then it ain’t.


You’ve seeing the reason yourself. 200 euro a kid and a GPO costs 40k a year about and the club only pays half.

That’s what the funding is about. It makes a little difference to the senior county team but dublins big advantages are seen elsewhere.

ArielAtom

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Bit of a side issue here, but according to the website of Ballyboden St. Enda's, they alone have 3,000 members:
https://www.ballyboden.ie/50th-anniversary-information-meeting/

It's in the second paragraph, under the "Club Chairman" heading.

That would be true. It could be higher now.

ArielAtom

bennyl10 wrote: »

But financial doping is the only word for it

The GAA have pumped money into Dublin, at the expense and detriment of other counties, in order to ensure success going forward

That’s the definition.

The GaA have destroyed the football championship, through their policy of Dublin first

Just going to put the definition of financial doping here. Can honestly say that is what has happened or are you going to challenge the Oxford Dictionary?

NOUN sport
1. the situation in which a sports franchise borrows heavily in order to contract and pay high-performing players, jeopardizing their long-term financial future.

2. the situation in which the owner of a sports franchise invests his or her own personal wealth into securing high-performing players, rather than relying on the revenue the franchise is able to generate for itself.

ArielAtom

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

All I'll say here is that in several years of being involved in both coaching and administration at both club and county level, I've never once heard anybody make a statement along the lines of "let's get a GPO in, because it's great for revenue".

I'll agree that membership fees from underage players seem to be a great money-spinner for Dublin clubs, though. From the Ballyboden website that I refer to above, I can see that their annual membership fees for an underage player are €200.

By way of contrast, in my club, it's €25.

But again - side issue.

That is not correct. I have family membership for myself, my wife and the two kids who are over 18 for €320.00. That is great value.