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The Leinster Championship is dead.

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Mckinley Lazy Cobble


    This too will end,dublin football will go into demise

    Kk dominated hurling to an unhealthy extent,but are now no longer gauranteed to win leinster each year,


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    This too will end,dublin football will go into demise

    Kk dominated hurling to an unhealthy extent,but are now no longer gauranteed to win leinster each year,

    Kilkenny weren't funded to the hilt at the expense of all the other counties. There was no task force set up to fix it in favour of Kilkenny, Kilkenny aren't getting 17 million quid off the GAA when everyone else gets buttons it's all outlined in John's letter.

    IMO the time has come for the other Leinster teams to step up and demand change and if they don't get it simply refuse to entertain this farce any longer.

    It is not simply a question of talent Kildare regularly beat Dublin at underage level the difference is the Dublin players graduate to a multi million euro professional set up and the other don't until that inequality is addressed the GAA in Leinster is fcuked and I suggest soon enough in Ireland as a whole.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This too will end,dublin football will go into demise

    Kk dominated hurling to an unhealthy extent,but are now no longer gauranteed to win leinster each year,

    Kilkenny is a reasonably small county so it was always going to balance out. They also had two golden generations come one after the other which helped to lengthen it.

    Dublin has the resources and population of a professional football team.

    You can't expect a place thats nearly 3 times the population of the whole of Connacht to revert to mediocrity.

    Sadly the Pro 14 has gone a similar way, Leinster is just too big with Dublin added and they're just steam rolling everyone else weekly.

    Both of these models only worked for as long as they were mismanaged.
    Once the direction and resources are maximised the economies of scale will explode.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,860 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    Kerry must have won 20 or so of the last 30 Munster finals, same as Dublin in Leinster. Won 8 of the last 10 Munster finals but Munster is grand while Leinster is dead

    Not sure whats so different about Munster...oh wait I know :o


    So much salt :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    Bambi wrote: »
    Kerry must have won 20 or so of the last 30 Munster finals, same as Dublin in Leinster. Won 8 of the last 10 Munster finals but Munster is grand while Leinster is dead

    Not sure whats so different about Munster...oh wait I know :o


    So much salt :D

    Not comparable at all for obvious reasons read the letter for a start. From 1995 to 2005 6 different teams won leinster since then only 2 and Dublin have won 14 of the last 15. Ask yourself what has changed since then? The direct funding of Dublin at the expense of all the rest happened its directly linked obviously there are some dubs who are too stupid to see that but the majority know well the reason.

    Do you actually enjoy watching the leinster championship can you seriously try and justify it ? Its getting worse not better at this rate it'll never change.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭ Bonniedog


    Kildare had huge money from the horse business in 90s which they used exclusively for the management staff and senior footballers, to the extent of supporting them in setting up in business.

    Maybe if Kildare had put a few bob into underage - as they are doing now - back then, things might be better?

    I have family involved in hurling in Kildare by the way, and they could talk volumes about the disgraceful mmanner in which your county board has treated the game in the county, to the extent of making a mockery of a senior championship game to legitimise the "free" transfer - ahem - of another import.

    And congrats to the Kildare hurlers by the way on their victory over Down. Footballers might get some lessons in how to grow a pair from them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Kildare had huge money from the horse business in 90s which they used exclusively for the management staff and senior footballers, to the extent of supporting them in setting up in business.

    Maybe if Kildare had put a few bob into underage - as they are doing now - back then, things might be better?

    I have family involved in hurling in Kildare by the way, and they could talk volumes about the disgraceful mmanner in which your county board has treated the game in the county, to the extent of making a mockery of a senior championship game to legitimise the "free" transfer - ahem - of another import.

    Ah yeah it's all kildares fault ffs no one is denying that kildare have squandered money etc we've been beating Dublin regularly at underage the last 10 years it makes no difference why is that I wonder? Nothing to do with the multi million euro professional set up the Dublin players are going into?

    The GAA has directly funded one county, the county with all the other advantages as it is by the way at the expense of all the others in any other sport it would be a scandal.

    Dublin are 1/100 in an all Ireland semi final ffs its finished.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭ snowgal


    Bambi wrote: »
    Kerry must have won 20 or so of the last 30 Munster finals, same as Dublin in Leinster. Won 8 of the last 10 Munster finals but Munster is grand while Leinster is dead

    Not sure whats so different about Munster...oh wait I know :o


    So much salt :D

    sorry but that is a load of bull.
    Kerry are in a province of 6, Leinster is double that.
    Munster is primarily Hurling teams with the odd flash of football coming through now and again, so Kerry have it much to themselves each year.(except 2020, go Tipp!)
    In the last 10 years the Munster finals have been much tighter affairs (bar 2014 or 2018) than the drubbings in Leinster so the gulf in Munster is much less than Leinster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭ techdiver


    dobman88 wrote: »

    If his figures are accurate then there is no question.
    Mayo GAA received approximately €22.30 per club registered player between 2010 and 2014 in coaching and development money. Tyrone received €21 and Kerry €19. Dublin GAA received €270.70 per club registered player between the same period.

    I always hear the argument when I point out the level of funding Dublin gets as "shur look at the size of Dublin and the amount of players". But despite all that the amount of funding is off the charts in a disproportionate manner and needs to be addressed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭ youcancallmeal


    I'm a Dublin supporter and do admit the Leinster championship is not entertaining. It's great to see the incredible skill and desire Dublin players have even after so many years of success but deep down I'd rather see a hard fought win with tight margins rather than 20+ point victories. It's a complex problem to solve though. The key question is what needs to happen to allow teams in Leinster be competitive with Dublin without handicapping Dublin in some way?


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,860 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    snowgal wrote: »
    sorry but that is a load of bull.
    Kerry are in a province of 6, Leinster is double that.


    Munster is a province of two football teams

    Leinster is a province of three

    Both provinces have an occasional blip when a team outside of that number win a title, but thats it. Nobody was crying about that.

    Nobody was crying when Kerry were walking through a Munster final straight in an All Ireland semi

    If you want to break up the provincial system to make it all fair for all counties, go ahead, you want to break up the county system for the same reason go ahead at least that won't be fuelled by the usual anti dub whinging :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭ Kayroo


    I'm a Dublin supporter and do admit the Leinster championship is not entertaining. It's great to see the incredible skill and desire Dublin players have even after so many years of success but deep down I'd rather see a hard fought win with tight margins rather than 20+ point victories. It's a complex problem to solve though. The key question is what needs to happen to allow teams in Leinster be competitive with Dublin without handicapping Dublin in some way?

    You don't handicap Dublin, you remove one advantage they have that is not a natural advantage and you give it to their competitors. What advantage is that? Money.

    Dublin can self-fund now more than any other county. So let them. (I am a Dub by the by).

    The 2003 strategy put in place by Sean Kelly was designed to reinvigorate Gaelic Games in Dublin and to ward off challenges from the professionalisation of rugby and the continuing appeal of soccer. There were whole swathes of south Dublin where GAA was simply a non-starter.

    In that regard the GAA have been spectacularly successful. Unfortunately the programme coincided with a decent Dublin team coming along naturally. This team was then supplemented by huge finances and an overhaul of underage talent meaning that the 2011 team (largely unaffected by the influx of money) was strengthened by 2011 minors who were more or less a direct product of the investment strategy. The 2011 minors gave Dublin Jack McCaffrey, Paul Mannion, Ciaran Kilkenny, John Small, Eric Lowndes, David Byrne, Niall Scully, Robbie McDaid, Emmet O'Conghaile and Conor McHugh. They filtered into a team with Paul Flynn, James McCarthy, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard and Alan Brogan, Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick etc. The cumulative effect was dominance.

    However, the GAA do have a model for bringing the sport to a good place in other counties. Just do what they did in Dublin on a scaled basis for the rest of the counties. It took around €17million to do it in Dublin because of the scale but the same results can be achieved for equivalently less money in smaller counties.

    This isn't a theoretical question either. This has to be done. Otherwise saving gaelic games in Dublin will have had the perverse effect of killing Gaelic Football everywhere else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭ spurshero


    Cavan has a great win yesterday . To see the joy and emotion it brought is what the gaa is all about . They should now be dreaming of winning all Ireland . But we all know what’s ahead . The bookies have the handicap at 15 points v Dublin ! So in other words there getting a hammering Sunday week where’s the fun in that. I’m not blaming Dublin but the fun is gone out of it for most other county supporters who used to start of every year thinking maybe this is our year ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    Kayroo wrote: »
    You don't handicap Dublin, you remove one advantage they have that is not a natural advantage and you give it to their competitors. What advantage is that? Money.

    Dublin can self-fund now more than any other county. So let them. (I am a Dub by the by).

    The 2003 strategy put in place by Sean Kelly was designed to reinvigorate Gaelic Games in Dublin and to ward off challenges from the professionalisation of rugby and the continuing appeal of soccer. There were whole swathes of south Dublin where GAA was simply a non-starter.

    In that regard the GAA have been spectacularly successful. Unfortunately the programme coincided with a decent Dublin team coming along naturally. This team was then supplemented by huge finances and an overhaul of underage talent meaning that the 2011 team (largely unaffected by the influx of money) was strengthened by 2011 minors who were more or less a direct product of the investment strategy. The 2011 minors gave Dublin Jack McCaffrey, Paul Mannion, Ciaran Kilkenny, John Small, Eric Lowndes, David Byrne, Niall Scully, Robbie McDaid, Emmet O'Conghaile and Conor McHugh. They filtered into a team with Paul Flynn, James McCarthy, Diarmuid Connolly, Bernard and Alan Brogan, Stephen Cluxton, Denis Bastick etc. The cumulative effect was dominance.

    However, the GAA do have a model for bringing the sport to a good place in other counties. Just do what they did in Dublin on a scaled basis for the rest of the counties. It took around €17million to do it in Dublin because of the scale but the same results can be achieved for equivalently less money in smaller counties.

    This isn't a theoretical question either. This has to be done. Otherwise saving gaelic games in Dublin will have had the perverse effect of killing Gaelic Football everywhere else.

    It's great to see a Dub acknowledge this and not just bleat about anti dub agenda wah wah. The GAA is finished in the 11 other counties in Leinster if you were a good GAA player and a good rugby or soccer player from any of the other 11 counties what would you pick? You'd want to be a ****ing lunatic to pick GAA.

    What is your reward for picking GAA?? you sacrifice everything family social life seeing your kids in the evenings for months, years on end and for what to be fed to a multi million euro professional outfit and destroyed and even more insultingly you'll be blamed for it!

    Great to see an ex player stand up and say what needs to be said hopefully current players and managers will now do the same before it's too late.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo


    Bambi wrote: »
    Kerry must have won 20 or so of the last 30 Munster finals, same as Dublin in Leinster. Won 8 of the last 10 Munster finals but Munster is grand while Leinster is dead

    Not sure whats so different about Munster...oh wait I know :o


    So much salt :D

    Do you seriously not see a problem or is it you just don't care because it is your team that's benefitting ?

    Leinster championship has been dead for years.

    But for covid it would be evident in attendance figures.

    Back around 2007, 2008 you were getting around 80,000 for Leinster final matches involving Dublin.
    But it has dropped at low as under 40,000 and last year was 47,000 with the year before 41,000.

    Dubs aren't interested anymore in Leinster as it is a cake walk.

    Even when the great Kerry team of 70s/80s were dominating Munster they weren't handing out drubbings to the second best team in the province.
    And saying they hammered Clare or Waterford doesn't count because they never were close anyway much like no one expects Carlow or Longford to come that close to Dublin anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    jmayo wrote: »
    Do you seriously not see a problem or is it you just don't care because it is your team that's benefitting ?

    Leinster championship has been dead for years.

    But for covid it would be evident in attendance figures.

    Back around 2007, 2008 you were getting around 80,000 for Leinster final matches involving Dublin.
    But it has dropped at low as under 40,000 and last year was 47,000 with the year before 41,000.

    Dubs aren't interested anymore in Leinster as it is a cake walk.

    Even when the great Kerry team of 70s/80s were dominating Munster they weren't handing out drubbings to the second best team in the province.
    And saying they hammered Clare or Waterford doesn't count because they never were close anyway much like no one expects Carlow or Longford to come that close to Dublin anyway.

    I was at the 2009 Leinster final 80k plus at it unreal atmosphere proper big game feel Dublin beat us by 3 but it was electric a contest from first minute to last that's gone now and will probably never return.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,860 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    jmayo wrote: »
    Do you seriously not see a problem or is it you just don't care because it is your team that's benefitting ?

    Leinster championship has been dead for years.

    But for covid it would be evident in attendance figures.

    Back around 2007, 2008 you were getting around 80,000 for Leinster final matches involving Dublin.
    But it has dropped at low as under 40,000 and last year was 47,000 with the year before 41,000.

    Dubs aren't interested anymore in Leinster as it is a cake walk.

    Even when the great Kerry team of 70s/80s were dominating Munster they weren't handing out drubbings to the second best team in the province.
    And saying they hammered Clare or Waterford doesn't count because they never were close anyway much like no one expects Carlow or Longford to come that close to Dublin anyway.

    Dublin dominated Leinster long before the Gavin era, Dublin have more Leinster titles, than Meath, Offaly, Kildare and a few other Leinster teams put togther but lopsided Leinster is only a problem now, I wonder why? Because the greatest team to have played the game is this Dublin team and its stinging the hole off a generation who were reared in Meaths golden era and Dublins wilderness era, boo hoo lads.

    Meath and Kildare wouldnt be setting Ulster or Connaught football alight either, they'd still be also rans but somehow its a Dublin problem that two of the horses in a three horse race have hobbled themselves :confused:


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Mckinley Lazy Cobble


    jmayo wrote: »
    Do you seriously not see a problem or is it you just don't care because it is your team that's benefitting ?

    Leinster championship has been dead for years.

    But for covid it would be evident in attendance figures.

    Back around 2007, 2008 you were getting around 80,000 for Leinster final matches involving Dublin.
    But it has dropped at low as under 40,000 and last year was 47,000 with the year before 41,000.

    Dubs aren't interested anymore in Leinster as it is a cake walk.

    Even when the great Kerry team of 70s/80s were dominating Munster they weren't handing out drubbings to the second best team in the province.
    And saying they hammered Clare or Waterford doesn't count because they never were close anyway much like no one expects Carlow or Longford to come that close to Dublin anyway.

    Waterford ran that kerry team close a few times in.the mid to late 70s,just a certain amount of inexperience showed in the end


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    Bambi wrote: »
    Dublin dominated Leinster long before the Gavin era, Dublin have more Leinster titles, than Meath, Offaly, Kildare and a few other Leinster teams put togther but lopsided Leinster is only a problem now, I wonder why? Because the greatest team to have played the game is this Dublin team and its stinging the hole off a generation who were reared in Meaths golden era and Dublins wilderness era, boo hoo lads.

    Meath and Kildare wouldnt be setting Ulster or Connaught football alight either, they'd still be also rans but somehow its a Dublin problem that two of the horses in a three horse race have hobbled themselves :confused:

    Yeah that's what it is alright it's just a coincidence that its coincided with the GAA funding Dublin at over 10 times the rate of the other counties.

    You keep pretending it's a great achievement for your professional multi million euro team to hammer amateur team every year.

    Even in the 70s the golden era of Dublin football they only won 6 leinsters never more than 6 in a decade previously its unprecedented and we all know why.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hammer Archer


    Bambi wrote: »
    Munster is a province of two football teams

    Leinster is a province of three

    Both provinces have an occasional blip when a team outside of that number win a title, but thats it. Nobody was crying about that.

    Nobody was crying when Kerry were walking through a Munster final straight in an All Ireland semi

    If you want to break up the provincial system to make it all fair for all counties, go ahead, you want to break up the county system for the same reason go ahead at least that won't be fuelled by the usual anti dub whinging :D
    Munster is a province where one team prioritises football over hurling.
    Leinster is a province where at least 7 teams prioritise football over hurling (and that's not including Laois, Offaly and Carlow where I'd say it'd be close to 50/50).

    Dublin fans seem to take this discussion very personally which I find strange. I haven't seen anyone who wasn't on the wind up blame Dublin for this. As was mentioned, the GAA ring fenced a huge amount of money in the early to mid 2000s to help give Dublin a boost due to the perceived threat of soccer and rugby in the capital. They did not foresee that Dublin would invest this money with surgical precision to give them the ability to do incredible work at underage and beyond to turn their senior footballers into the team they are today. This is a compliment to the people in Dublin GAA behind this.

    However, now the GAA are left with what you see in Leinster football now. Dublin are the first football team to win 10 provincial titles in a row. The only other counties to win 10 in a row were Galway hurlers in Connacht and Antrim hurlers in Ulster. Unsurprisingly, those competitions have ceased to exist due to there being no competition. There is a chance of Leinster football going the same way.

    Like it or not, the GAA do have to act. They actually cannot financially hobble Dublin even if they wanted to. Dublin are financially self sufficient at the moment, given the mountains of sponsorship coming their way. They don't need to go through the work of fundraising anywhere near the degree that other counties do because of this and their accounts attest to that. A similar project needs to be implemented like the one for Dublin in all Leinster counties (and I believe that something may have already started in the last couple of years in some counties). Unfortunately, because no other county was allowed to apply for funding like Dublin's for years, this has given Dublin a 10 - 15 year head start. Their dominance now is making it exceptionally difficult for other counties to keep talented younger players interested in committing to the senior football team when there's realistically going to be no reward.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,860 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    Because they werent the greatest team to play the game?

    Dublin 59 Leinster titles, Royallers 21. Only a problem now, apparently.

    Wonder why nobody cried like this when Kilkenny won 11 out of 15 All Irelands and 16 out of 18 Leinsters?

    Because its wasn't football? Nah, because it wasnt Dublin.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hammer Archer


    Bambi wrote: »
    Dublin dominated Leinster long before the Gavin era, Dublin have more Leinster titles, than Meath, Offaly, Kildare and a few other Leinster teams put togther but lopsided Leinster is only a problem now, I wonder why? Because the greatest team to have played the game is this Dublin team and its stinging the hole off a generation who were reared in Meaths golden era and Dublins wilderness era, boo hoo lads.

    Meath and Kildare wouldnt be setting Ulster or Connaught football alight either, they'd still be also rans but somehow its a Dublin problem that two of the horses in a three horse race have hobbled themselves :confused:

    2010 - 2019: Dublin 9, Meath 1.
    2000 - 2009: Dublin 5, Meath 1, Kildare 1, Laois 1, Westmeath 1
    1990 - 1999: Dublin 4, Meath 4, Kildare 1, Offaly 1
    1980 - 1989: Dublin 4, Meath 3, Offaly 3
    1970 - 1979: Dublin 6, Offaly 3, Meath 1
    1960 - 1969: Dublin 3, Meath 3, Offaly 3, Longford 1
    1950 - 1959: Dublin 3, Meath 3, Louth 3, Kildare 1

    Dublin have never dominated Leinster like they have now so what you've said is provably false. The decade when they came closest to the current domination was from 1890 - 1899, and even then they "only" won 7 Leinster titles. As said in my previous post, they're the only football team to win 10 titles in a row. Even Kerry who Dublin fans always point to their dominance of Munster have never done that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭ hammerdub


    How come Dublin haven't won Leinster hurling over the last ten year with all the money.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hammer Archer


    hammerdub wrote: »
    How come Dublin haven't won Leinster hurling over the last ten year with all the money.
    They did. In 2013. First in over 60 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭ rpurfield


    hammerdub wrote: »
    How come Dublin haven't won Leinster hurling over the last ten year with all the money.

    You may need to read this: https://www.the42.ie/live-dublin-galway-leinster-hurling-final-982402-Jul2013/


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,860 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    Dublin fans seem to take this discussion very personally which I find strange. I haven't seen anyone who wasn't on the wind up blame Dublin for this

    Not really, its just galling to see people ullagoning about the good of the game and the death of Leinster when they're really just raging that Dublin are handing out hidings to low quality teams in Leinster.

    You can scrap the provincals in football, and I'd be fine with it, they're an anachronsim outside of Ulster and attendances are down across the board (don't tell Meath posters that, they love pointing to Leinster final attendances and keening for the death of the province)

    Scrapping the provincals to keep Meath and Kildare away from big bad Dublin won't make them any better, but if your goal is that certain counties wont be hammered by the Jackeens every year then fire away. They will still be hammered by other top tier teams.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭ piplip87


    I'd be more in favour of scrapping the league. Keep the provincials winners and finalists get seeded for an open draw championship. 8 groups of 4. Top 2 go on to compete for Sam bottom two go on for second tier.

    It would mean winning your province even for the big boys retains importance. Play it out over a month in early April.

    I'd also play the championship over 9 weeks starting in May. Let the clubs have from mid July onwards. The coverage of the club games on TV was excellent and the games where real quality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭ Uncle Pierre


    Just going to weigh in here myself to say that the post by Kayroo on the first page is by far the most intelligent and reasonable contribution on this topic that I've ever heard from a Dublin person. It's genuinely refreshing and even encouraging to see somebody there looking at the bigger picture instead of just whining about there being an "anti-Dub" bias in every other county.

    The "rejuvenation in Dublin" project that started in the early 2000s was well-intentioned, but the results that we see today go far beyond anything that was ever envisaged. And while the huge sum of money poured into Dublin GAA is not the only reason for the current dominance, it's certainly a large part of it.

    I think it's time for a serious review now of funding not only for the rest of Leinster, but for the rest of Ireland, to try help other counties achieve the same improvement in standards that Dublin has already achieved. The work's already been done there - it's now time to give everybody else a chance.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭ Scoundrel


    Bambi wrote: »
    Because they werent the greatest team to play the game?

    Dublin 59 Leinster titles, Royallers 21. Only a problem now, apparently.

    Wonder why nobody cried like this when Kilkenny won 11 out of 15 All Irelands and 16 out of 18 Leinsters?

    Because its wasn't football? Nah, because it wasnt Dublin.

    This nonsense has been answered repeatedly Kilkenny weren't funded massively by the GAA to achieve their success there wasnt a task force set up to rig it for kilkenny Dublin were funded by the GAA at the expense of all the rest to ensure their success.


This discussion has been closed.
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