The Leinster Championship is dead.

gormdubhgorm

Enquiring wrote: »

They didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986.

This has be proven to be incorrect. at least 85 -91 whether you like it or not.
I suggest you contact the DCB for concrete confirmation and behave like your username!

gormdubhgorm

Enquiring wrote: »

No, you don't, you were caught out. It was for a few years in the 80's. That's not wiki information or some dodgy article you produced.

So the indo is dodgy now is it? I believe dublin also were absent in other spells.

However, I believe your purpose is not to find the definitive answer, merely to discredit me?

An account set up to do so?

ShyMets

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This has be proven to be incorrect. at least 85 -91 whether you like it or not.
I suggest you contact the DCB for concrete confirmation and behave like your username!

My advice is to disengage, if the poster who I believe I think it is. This just is just going to go around in circles

Enquiring

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

This has be proven to be incorrect. at least 85 -91 whether you like it or not.
I suggest you contact the DCB for concrete confirmation and behave like your username!

:pac: You've changed your years pretty sharpish there. It was 83-91 a very short time ago. It was decades you were saying before that. You need to take your own advice and do some research. I won't be wasting any more time on someone who has been caught out telling porkies numerous times. I just need to find the ignore button.

Enquiring

ShyMets wrote: »

My advice is to disengage, if the poster who I believe I think it is just is just going to go around in circles

Here are the Dubs waving the white flag, my work here is done. Goodnight all.

Gael85

Enquiring wrote: »

Correction, part of Glancy's role was to coach in primary schools. As was pointed out by other officials within Dublin GAA, the professional coaches had many other roles within a club. Assisting the development of McCarthy and Rock was just one example of a development officer making a major difference well outside primary school aged players.

Glancy only joined Ballymun in 07. WAS no GPO prior to him. The lads were coached all the way by Paddy Christie and would have been on Dublin development panels at the time.

Cilldara_2000

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So the indo is dodgy now is it? I believe dublin also were absent in other spells.

However, I believe your purpose is not to find the definitive answer, merely to discredit me?

An account set up to do so?

The Independent clearly is dodgy. The Leinster Council website has the roll of honour, I have match programmes in the house with the roll of honour. Who's dodgy - the committee in charge of running the competition or some badly informed journalist?

Interesting how the claim started as "Dublin u21's footballers did not compete at that level for gaps of over decades" and is now being consistently watered down in the face of easily verifiable evidence to the contrary.

People make mistakes but continued wild easily disprovable claims sort of water down the message of the person making these wild claims.

ShyMets

Enquiring wrote: »

Here are the Dubs waving the white flag, my work here is done. Goodnight all.

Or maybe you've just been rumpled. Night night

Gael85

https://www.gaa.ie/features/feature/clubs-james-glancy-109973/

gormdubhgorm

Enquiring wrote: »

:pac: You've changed your years pretty sharpish there. It was 83-91 a very short time ago. It was decades you were saying before that. You need to take your own advice and do some research. I won't be wasting any more time on someone who has been caught out telling porkies numerous times. I just need to find the ignore button.

Again discrediting tactic analysis the info based on facts - Indo stated 83-91

Could be a typo.

Wiki a known source which can be edited by anyone says dublin in 84 final.

However, going by both Dublin do not appear in a Leinster final until at least 92.

So you can gauge it from that it was not only a few years in the 80's as another poster claimed.

And yes I believe Dublin did not compete at u21 in other spells - which I have already stated.

gormdubhgorm

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

The Independent clearly is dodgy. The Leinster Council website has the roll of honour, I have match programmes in the house with the roll of honour. Who's dodgy - the committee in charge of running the competition or some badly informed journalist?

Interesting how the claim started as "Dublin u21's footballers did not compete at that level for gaps of over decades" and is now being consistently watered down in the face of easily verifiable evidence to the contrary.

People make mistakes but continued wild easily disprovable claims sort of water down the message of the person making these wild claims.

They are not wild claims as you well know. It is generally a well known fact Dublin did not compete for a number of spells in various decades.

gormdubhgorm

Enquiring wrote: »

:pac: You've changed your years pretty sharpish there. It was 83-91 a very short time ago. It was decades you were saying before that. You need to take your own advice and do some research. I won't be wasting any more time on someone who has been caught out telling porkies numerous times. I just need to find the ignore button.

As a 'new' guy with 200 posts boards.ie must be daunting. I meant over number of decades as I said.

Plus the fact there was a spell so recent speaks volumes.

ShyMets

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again discrediting tactic analysis the info based on facts - Indo stated 83-91

Could be a typo.

Wiki a known source which can be edited by anyone says dublin in 84 final.

However, going by both Dublin do not appear in a Leinster final until at least 92.

So you can gauge it from that it was not only a few years in the 80's as another poster claimed.

And yes I believe Dublin did not compete at u21 in other spells - which I have already stated.

Just in terms of 1984 u21 Championship. Dublin did win Leinster but did not make it to the All Ireland Final.

https://www.dublingaa.ie/history/roll-of-honour

gormdubhgorm

ShyMets wrote: »

Just in terms of 1984 u21 Championship. Dublin did win Leinster but did not make it to the All Ireland Final.

https://www.dublingaa.ie/history/roll-of-honour

I sent a tweet to @dublingaa re u21's anyway as I am curious as to the exact years.

I am a bit of GAA stato at heart!

Gael85

ShyMets wrote: »

Just in terms of 1984 u21 Championship. Dublin did win Leinster but did not make it to the All Ireland Final.
https://www.dublingaa.ie/history/roll-of-honour

Dublin lost in AI u21 semi final to Mayo in 84

ArielAtom

ShyMets wrote: »

Or maybe you've just been rumpled. Night night

You can only cut and paste so many pieces from the web until they loose their appeal, no structure just pieces from the net that don't even tie into each other, just C&P, rinse n repeat.

gaffer91

Leinster is dead because Dublin are so unfairly advantaged that competition with them is impossible. They have huge unfair advantages in funding (both from sponsors and the GAA) and population. They play nearly all consequential games at home, in particular All-Ireland semi- finals and finals. They have other advantages and there are other reasons for their success, but those three things (population, funding, home advantage) are big factors.

If it's any consolation to the counties in Leinster, the All-Ireland competition has more or less gone the same way.

Dublin need to be split into four. Other changes are of course needed in Gaelic Football but that is the single most important one. All funding from all sources should also be pooled and shared more equitably for all teams too.

If Dublin aren't split, inter-county football will die. It's already almost dead tbh, it's probably too late for it to be saved. But splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring the meaningful survival of the competition.

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

Leinster is dead because Dublin are so unfairly advantaged that competition with them is impossible. They have huge unfair advantages in funding (both from sponsors and the GAA) and population. They play nearly all consequential games at home, in particular All-Ireland semi- finals and finals. They have other advantages and there are other reasons for their success, but those three things (population, funding, home advantage) are big factors.

If it's any consolation to the counties in Leinster, the All-Ireland competition has more or less gone the same way.

Dublin need to be split into four. Other changes are of course needed in Gaelic Football but that is the single most important one. All funding from all sources should also be pooled and shared more equitably for all teams too.

If Dublin aren't split, inter-county football will die. It's already almost dead tbh, it's probably too late for it to be saved. But splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring the meaningful survival of the competition.

I think splitting Dublin should be the last option.

What I do think needs to happen is a redistribution of funding. Pooled sponsorship. Limits to what county teams can spend and limits to the number of backroom teams.

Perhaps move back to only 3 subs. This would somewhat reduce the advantage that teams with larger panels have.

Have Dublin play games on an home & away basis. Dublin's home games played at Parnell Park with the exception of Leinster Finals and All Ireland Semi Final & All Ireland Finals

Scoundrel

ShyMets wrote: »

I think splitting Dublin should be the last option.

What I do think needs to happen is a redistribution of funding. Pooled sponsorship. Limits to what county teams can spend and limits to the number of backroom teams.

Perhaps move back to only 3 subs. This would somewhat reduce the advantage that teams with larger panels have.

Have Dublin play games on an home & away basis. Dublin's home games played at Parnell Park with the exception of Leinster Finals and All Ireland Semi Final & All Ireland Finals

I agree splitting Dublin is the Nuclear option remove all of Dublin's unfair financial advantages first level the playing field that way and level it by not allowing Dublin play every single game at home.

All we are asking for is a level playing field here and if Dublin still dominate after that then so be it but we are simply asking for basic fairness from the governing body and we aren't getting it.

Scoundrel

eagle eye wrote: »

I spoke about the benefits of training etc. that the Dublin football team enjoy and you go off waffling about politics and geography?

Yeah and the fact that Kill GAA got money in 1999 like it's somehow relevant

Scoundrel

Lissoy wrote: »

Up to minor level Dublin do not have the same level of dominance in Leinster that they enjoy at U20/21 and senior. Of the last 10 Leinster minor championships Kildare and Dublin have won 4 each with Meath and Longford on 1 each but when you get to U20/21 Dublin have won 7 of the last 10 with Kildare winning 2 and Wexford the other 1. And then 10 out of 10 at senior level.
Why are Dublin better able to transfer talent through from underage levels to senior? I understand that not all underage players make good senior players but Kildare are obviously doing something right with their juvenile structures but it has not resulted in an improvement in their senior team. Is it a more professional approach to coaching at senior level or better strength and conditioning that is more of an advantage in adults than juveniles? Or that guys outside of Dublin are more likely to live away from home or travel for college or work that the same level of focus cannot be achieved on their football careers?

Or maybe just maybe it's because the Kildare players aren't going into a multi million euro professional set up and the Dublin players are..

Tombo2001

gaffer91 wrote: »

Leinster is dead because Dublin are so unfairly advantaged that competition with them is impossible. They have huge unfair advantages in funding (both from sponsors and the GAA) and population. They play nearly all consequential games at home, in particular All-Ireland semi- finals and finals. They have other advantages and there are other reasons for their success, but those three things (population, funding, home advantage) are big factors.

If it's any consolation to the counties in Leinster, the All-Ireland competition has more or less gone the same way.

Dublin need to be split into four. Other changes are of course needed in Gaelic Football but that is the single most important one. All funding from all sources should also be pooled and shared more equitably for all teams too.

If Dublin aren't split, inter-county football will die. It's already almost dead tbh, it's probably too late for it to be saved. But splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring the meaningful survival of the competition.

The conversation dies if it just becomes about bashing the Dubs.

What county are you from? Because if its anywhere other than Leitrim, then you have an 'unfair advantage'. Sort it out.

Tombo2001

Scoundrel wrote: »

I agree splitting Dublin is the Nuclear option remove all of Dublin's unfair financial advantages first level the playing field that way and level it by not allowing Dublin play every single game at home.

All we are asking for is a level playing field here and if Dublin still dominate after that then so be it but we are simply asking for basic fairness from the governing body and we aren't getting it.

Kerry footballers get way more sponsorship money than Clare footballers.

Meath has a way bigger population than Longford.

What sort of a level playing field are you looking for?

Scoundrel

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Kerry footballers get way more sponsorship money than Clare footballers.

Meath has a way bigger population than Longford.

What sort of a level playing field are you looking for?

There's nothing you can do about population so that's a ridiculous comparison how about all counties get equal funding from the GAA not Dublin getting 20 times more than anyone else?? Surely you can agree to that??

For what it's worth I believe all commercial sponsorship should be pooled and distributed equally.

gormdubhgorm

I have looked at how Westmeath fared in the NFL between 1999-2000 and how many Leinster Finals Westmeath have got to.

Westmeath in NFL and Leinster

2020 div 2

2019 div 3 won

2018 div3

2017 div 4

2016 div 3 relegated

2015 div 2 relegated

2014 div 1 relegated (no wins no draws)

2013 div 2 promoted

2012 div 2

2011 div 3 promoted

2010 div 2 relegated

2009 div 1 relegated (no wins no draws)

2008 div 2 promoted

2007 div 1b relegated to the new div 2

2006 div 2a promoted

2005 div 1a relegated (one win one draw)

2004 div 1a

2003 div 2a (winners div 2)

2002 div1a relegated (one win)

2001 winners div 2

2000 div 2a

1999 div 2

On the basis of this between 2013 and and 2016 it could be argued Westmeath were better than Meath (or at least on a par) as Meath had an absence from division 1 for 13 years until 2020. Even though Westmeath slid down the leagues subsequently, following 2014 They did defeat Meath in 2015 in the Leinster Championship and they proved it was no fluke by defeating Kildare in the following season in Leinster.
'Focusing on the championship' was the phrased used about Westmeath in 2015/2016 I believe. To take it handy in the league and go old school.
In my view approximately that period where Meath and Kildare fell off the cliff standards wise in Leinster and left a bit of a 'power vacuum' for even 2nd/3rd/4th best in Leinster.

In the 136 years of the GAA. Westmeath have only won Leinster once in 2004 thanks to the ‘Paidi effect’.

Westmeath only appeared in four Leinster finals in the 136 year history of the GAA

Westmeath's Leinster Final appearances

2016 (Hammered by Dublin by 15 points)

2015 (Hammered by Dublin by 13 points)

2004 (Paidi’s win)

1949 (Meath hammered them by 11 points - 4 goals scored)

1931 (Kildare beat them by 6 points)

Yet John Connellen is only a ‘concerned Gael’ in 2020???

Quite frankly I think John Connellen is completely deluded if he thinks money alone, is the answer to help Westmeath compete.

Throughout their recent league history (20 years or so) Westmeath have been a div 2 team at best or a div 4 team at worst. Mostly div 2.
When getting in div 1 they have been relegated .
Most recently with no wins and no draws in 2014 div 1.
The same as Kildare who had no win and no draws in div 1 in 2018 and were relegated.
Similar to Meath this year who had no wins and one draw relegated from div 1.

dunnerc

gaffer91 wrote: »

Leinster is dead because Dublin are so unfairly advantaged that competition with them is impossible. They have huge unfair advantages in funding (both from sponsors and the GAA) and population. They play nearly all consequential games at home, in particular All-Ireland semi- finals and finals. They have other advantages and there are other reasons for their success, but those three things (population, funding, home advantage) are big factors.

If it's any consolation to the counties in Leinster, the All-Ireland competition has more or less gone the same way.

Dublin need to be split into four. Other changes are of course needed in Gaelic Football but that is the single most important one. All funding from all sources should also be pooled and shared more equitably for all teams too.

If Dublin aren't split, inter-county football will die. It's already almost dead tbh, it's probably too late for it to be saved. But splitting Dublin helps all counties by ensuring the meaningful survival of the competition.

Welcome back:rolleyes:
This is not " The Dominance of Dublin GAA Thread ";)

ArielAtom

dunnerc wrote: »

Welcome back:rolleyes:
This is not " The Dominance of Dublin GAA Thread ";)

But it is.

Tombo2001

Scoundrel wrote: »

There's nothing you can do about population so that's a ridiculous comparison how about all counties get equal funding from the GAA not Dublin getting 20 times more than anyone else?? Surely you can agree to that??

For what it's worth I believe all commercial sponsorship should be pooled and distributed equally.

You need to clarify your statement.

You say: all counties should get equal funding from GAA.

So Dublin GAA - with 50000 active GAA members - should get the same amount of funding as Leitrim - with 1000 active GAA members?

Is this fair?

I'd broadly agree on the sponsorship issue - but here is the thing, the sponsors arent in it to make weaker counties better; they are in it to get exposure.

Toyota will want a Dublin player driving their car. Not sure how you get around this.

Maybe you'd prefer if nobody got any sponsorship (being honest, that mightnt be the worst thing in the world).

gormdubhgorm

The mindset of many of the posters on this thread who believe that Dublin’s success was solely down to funding, reminds me a lot of those conspiracy theorists.

You know? Those sort who believe that the earth is flat. The ‘flat earther’s’ as they are known.
They always return to the same issue and would defend their argument to the hilt that the demise of Leinster is solely because of ‘Dublin’s money'

Now as a reasonable person, I believe that the funding Dublin received has had some effect. But it is not the sole reason.

To any reasonable person there are a number of other factors, which also contributed to the current scenario..

1) Talent: How Dublin’s youngsters are a tremendous generation - not caused because of money - but because of their natural gifts and how Dublin at last took a proper focus on their underage structure. Dublin won the u21 AI for the first time in 2003. After years of treating it with distain and in some decades not even competing at all! Dublin also won the Junior AI in 2008 many of whom played an integral part in Dublin’s current era

2) Dublin Management - Which relates to the above Pat Gilroy and Jim Gavin in particular built on the groundwork laid by Pillar Caffery. Jim was a particular link between u21 and senior winning the u21 in 2003. 2010 and 2012. Gilroy was key in blooding players prior to this and cutting out the less committed to the jersey. He also went back to basics with Dublin’s tactics initially making them harder to beat. But even prior to Dublin's AI in 2011 I would argue Kerry and Tyrone were just too good for Dublin a different level,

It is no coincidence the both Gilroy and Gavin both work in professions where they have to show a high level of organisational skills. Plus be leaders of men

3) Boylan, Paidi, Micko - Leinster rivals losing top managers - It is no coincidence that rapid fall in standards of Meath, Kildare and Laois have coincided with the loss of great GAA managers. Plus Westmeath’s only win was because of one great man.

4) Poor subsequent management appointments and mismanagement - It has been about 15 years since Paidi managed West Meath how have Westmeath fared since in the league and even outside Leinster. It is also the similar amount of time that Boylan has left Meath and Micko has left Laois/Kildare

Meath and Kildare have done decent at underage level in Leinster why has the talent not come through and shone in the league/qualifiers or super 8’s. Kildare have even won a u20 AI yet there is no real improvement.

Personally I think it is right to question Kildare tactically because of this. Given the talent they are supposed to have how come we have not seen real signs of improvement. An u21 runners up in 2008 and an u20 win in 2018

5) Antiquated Provincial Structures - The provincials are no longer fit for purpose in the 21st century. Particularly, when you analyse the standard of teams. In Leinster there is only one consistent div 1 team that would be considered top 7. It is not fair the levels in standard are not comparable. The provincials have long being an inequitable, and lopsided competitions. Only won by the same few teams with very occasional interruption.


6) Population - larger population does not guarantee success as Meath and Kildare have shown against Carlow, Westmeath and Longford respectively - if the team is not managed correctly. Or if opponents have managers who use their tactics cleverly to negate population advantage.

But, it is just a fact of life that Dublin is the Capital of Ireland and therefore has the larger population. It is likely this will always put them as a dominant team of a Leinster era even in periods of Dublin mismanagement. The 'culchie brain drain' also keeps GAA alive in Dublin. They settle down and settle in the GAA passing the love of the games on to their little Dubs. Plus many are heavily involved in Dublin clubs.

This is despite the fact that vast areas of Dublin have no or very weak GAA , unlike most parts of the rest of the Island of Ireland (Except NI).
Dublin have strong competitors in rugby and soccer. In many places in Ireland the GAA is the heartbeat of an area. It is not always the case in Dublin. You can go to some places and you would not even know ‘the match’ is on that weekend.



—

It occurs to me that many of the posters who believe 'leinster being dead' is the fault of Dublin solely are of the mindset of 'don’t blame us it is not our fault'.


Or to quote 'Dustin the Turkey'. Who sums up the mindset of much of this thread, and particularly the OP:

“Don’t blame the culchies, they didn’t fail.

It's not their fault, they were born outside the pale”

I will dedicate this song to all of those of those of this mindset

Especially, John Connellen, Scoundrel, Enquiring, Ewan McKenna et all this one is for youse!

gaffer91

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The conversation dies if it just becomes about bashing the Dubs.

What county are you from? Because if its anywhere other than Leitrim, then you have an 'unfair advantage'. Sort it out.

Dublin are the only county uniquely unfairly advantaged in terms of the scale, nature, duration and combination of their advantages. These unfair advantages include massive population, hugely disproportionate funding and playing all semi- finals and finals in their home stadium.

This thread is about Leinster Championship. Dublin having these unfair advantages and utilising them well is the reason the province is dead.

So we need to split Dublin and then we can look at other issues. That is the first and most important step to helping all counties in Leinster.

dunnerc wrote: »

Welcome back:rolleyes:
This is not " The Dominance of Dublin GAA Thread ";)

Thanks, hope you're well. I'm always happy to talk about how to help the Leinster Championship too. Unfortunately this also requires Dublin to be split.