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The Leinster Championship is dead.

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    #662
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Hammer Archer wrote: »
    100% he would. He is an absolutely phenomenal player. The fact that he's the only current player included in Meath's best team from the last 30 years proves that. He would also make the Dublin team in my opinion.
    dobman88 wrote: »
    He would walk into the Kerry team tbf.

    This Meath team in the last 20 years list has Keogan as well

    https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/5515152/best-meath-team-last-20-years-sunsport/

    Plus it says:

    'PROBABLY the only player that would have got his place in any of Meath’s last couple of All-Ireland-winning teams, Keogan is a brilliant footballer.

    During a lean period for Meath, Keogan has stood out as one of the best man-markers in the game.

    His role has evolved in recent seasons where he now operates as a playmaking half-back, controlling the game and driving forward to set up scores.

    A clever and talented player who, in another era, would have a couple of All Stars by now.'


    So I am happy to concede defeat on that one if a Meath fella and a Kerry fella rate him that highly. Plus such glowing words are written about him. He would have to be on the list.

    But looking at the rest of the Meath last 20 years best players list it would bring a tear in my eye if I was from Meath.

    Plus as a Dub I am reading it saying 'that fecker he was dangerous' was afraid of him. or 'that fella was a tough bastard'.

    Bar Keogan where are the current players? Menton and Newman do not even make the 20 year list. Plus had them up as two of the better Meath players now.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #663
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Scoundrel wrote: »
    Oh sweet Jesus the letter referenced in the OP from the former Westmeath footballer Connellan is literally about how Dublin's unfair financial advantages are the reason for the Leinster championship being dead it's the topic at hand
    You are trying to claim that it is because Kildare and Meath are no good

    Explain, then why Meath were in div 2 for 13 years so and when they got promoted did not even get a point???

    Plus, when Kildare and Meath have gotten to the super 8's they failed to win a game between them??

    Kerry scored 7 goals v Kildare for jayus sake!
    Kildare and Meath are on the whole marginally worse than they were 10 or 15 years ago but the biggest change is how much better Dublin have gotten and how much more resources i.e € Dublin have at their disposal now compared to what they had then.

    It has clearly shown in Leinster Kildare and Meath are NOT marginally worse. Plus it also is shown up in Leinster in the last 10 years Meath and Kildare have lost to Westmeath Carlow, Longford between them on 5 occasions altogether.

    Westmeath, Carlow, Longford who obviously have got special treatment and loads of €€€€ and a large influx of population in comparison to Meath's €€€€€€ and larger population?

    You want to discuss Dublin's financial advantages solely to the exclusion of all other variables (Such as the departure of Micko, Paidi and Boylan, Provincial structure and so on.

    I suggest you should have gone to the Dublin dominance thread. Because 'Leinster is dead?' is a broader discussion. Which you seem afraid of or unwilling to have. Either that or change the title of the thread.

    You seem to be only willing to focus on one variable Dublin's improvement plus increased finances. With no other variables discussed. Such as even the best Dublin crop in generations seem to go over your head. Either that or it does not suit your narrative.

    When someone asks Leinster is dead? it is broad question with many variables and causes. Not solely Dublin's.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #664
    ArielAtom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭ArielAtom


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If you gave the Kildare and Meath panels the same treatment, training etc. as the Dublin panel they'd be in the top five counties without question.[/QUOT

    Please explain what in terms of training could be different? I'm facinated as to what you think Dublin are doing differently.


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    #665
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    eagle eye wrote: »
    If you gave the Kildare and Meath panels the same treatment, training etc. as the Dublin panel they'd be in the top five counties without question.

    So you mean make Kildare and Meath the co-capitals of Ireland. The main area for jobs industry and the place where country people settle down.

    Plus have Meath and Kildare become the new centres of government - devolution and so on. Increase rent and prices and so on. Plus move about a 750k people to Kildare/Meath. Put the main Universities in Kildare and Meath.

    It could take a fair while before all that happens. But after things settle down you could be bang on!

    Plus Charlie McCreevey TD former EU man already saved Kildare.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-20173906.html

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-forum-time-the-axe-fell-on-ministerial-carve-up-k32dnv88gx9

    '1999, Kill GAA club received £350,000 in the great lottery etc'

    Also see the following:

    Former Kildare County Sec. Kathleen O'Neill (2016) article

    'However just 12 months later a decision from Croke Park saw the position of Development and Games officer broken up into two separate positions and Kathleen was elected the first Development Officer in the county'.

    “I was in that post for some two years and it was a great time to be involved in club development as there was no shortage of funding, the Celtic Tiger was roaring and, of course the Minister for Finance was Charlie McCreevy and he was a great asset,” Kathleen explains from her office in Hawkfield Centre of Excellence."

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ia3AMjE2YywJ:https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/sport/209903/kildare-gaa-county-board-secretary-looks.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


    Well in with Kildare GAA Mr McCreevey was, a proud Kildare man.



    Plus the East Leinster Project is now in train

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/15m-gaa-funding-boost-for-east-leinster-project-34934104.html

    Kildare and Meath will be out of excuses

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #666
    Girly Gal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭Girly Gal


    Dublin do have a massive advantage both financially and population wise and realistically no county can compete with them at the moment, but, it also has to be said that Meath and Kildare have been generally poor for the last decade or more. They have very few positve results between them against top 6 or 7 teams in the last decade. Compared with Meath and Kildare teams from 20 or 30 years ago they should be performing better, no one expects them to beat Dublin, but, they should be more competitive against other top 6 teams


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    #667
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Girly Gal wrote: »
    Dublin do have a massive advantage both financially and population wise and realistically no county can compete with them at the moment, but, it also has to be said that Meath and Kildare have been generally poor for the last decade or more. They have very few positve results between them against top 6 or 7 teams in the last decade. Compared with Meath and Kildare teams from 20 or 30 years ago they should be performing better, no one expects them to beat Dublin, but, they should be more competitive against other top 6 teams

    Agree 100% it is a combination of a number of variables.

    However, people with an agenda only wish to see one = Dublin and moolah.
    It is clear to me that the OP is one of those with such an agenda for example.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #668
    ShyMets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Agree 100% it is a combination of a number of variables.

    However, people with an agenda only wish to see one = Dublin and moolah.
    It is clear to me that the OP is one of those with such an agenda for example.

    100% agree about variables. One thing that tends to get overlooked is Dublin management. Pat Gilroy was a very good manager. Jim Gavin was a great one.

    You could certainly argue that during the same period both Meath and Kildare made some bad managerial calls which set them back


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    #669
    Cilldara_2000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Cilldara_2000


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    This Meath team in the last 20 years list has Keogan as well

    https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/5515152/best-meath-team-last-20-years-sunsport/

    Plus it says:

    'PROBABLY the only player that would have got his place in any of Meath’s last couple of All-Ireland-winning teams, Keogan is a brilliant footballer.

    During a lean period for Meath, Keogan has stood out as one of the best man-markers in the game.

    His role has evolved in recent seasons where he now operates as a playmaking half-back, controlling the game and driving forward to set up scores.

    A clever and talented player who, in another era, would have a couple of All Stars by now.'


    So I am happy to concede defeat on that one if a Meath fella and a Kerry fella rate him that highly. Plus such glowing words are written about him. He would have to be on the list.

    But looking at the rest of the Meath last 20 years best players list it would bring a tear in my eye if I was from Meath.

    Plus as a Dub I am reading it saying 'that fecker he was dangerous' was afraid of him. or 'that fella was a tough bastard'.

    Bar Keogan where are the current players? Menton and Newman do not even make the 20 year list. Plus had them up as two of the better Meath players now.

    So how many well known and highly regarded players have you now written off as the nobody of all nobodies? Safe to say that if I want an honest appraisal on the strong footballers in any particular county, you won't be my first port of call.


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    #670
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,873 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    gormdubhgorm wrote:
    Kildare and Meath will be out of excuses

    I spoke about the benefits of training etc. that the Dublin football team enjoy and you go off waffling about politics and geography?


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    #671
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    ShyMets wrote: »
    100https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/in-my-last-match-i-was-off-after-four-minutes-mark-vaughan-on-his-colourful-dublin-career-and-run-in-with-pat-gilroy-36062931.html% agree about variables. One thing that tends to get overlooked is Dublin management. Pat Gilroy was a very good manager. Jim Gavin was a great one.

    You could certainly argue that during the same period both Meath and Kildare made some bad managerial calls which set them back

    On the mangers Gilroy in a particular changed Dublin's culture got rid of the likes of Marc Vaughan who were not pulling thier weight

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/in-my-last-match-i-was-off-after-four-minutes-mark-vaughan-on-his-colourful-dublin-career-and-run-in-with-pat-gilroy-36062931.html

    Lack of discipline meant out the door.

    I remember Gilroy trying loads of players in the league around 2009 he was going for a complete revamp. Plus instead of training in Artane he teamed up with Niall Moyna in DCU.

    https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/205659-205659

    Dublin were as flaky as **** outside Leinster when Gilroy took them over.

    Plus loads of Kerry lads have said things like 'we knew back then Dublin would crack when a bit of pressure was put on them'. Harsh, but true.

    Gilroy tightened Dublin up for a start, among other things

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/20-things-pat-gilroy-changed-in-dublin-26772743.html

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #672
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I spoke about the benefits of training etc. that the Dublin football team enjoy and you go off waffling about politics and geography?

    You said 'etc'. Dublin being the capital. politics and so on, will mean they always have an advantage. As for training it is not rocket science other Leinster counties are not complete eejits. Look at the sensible changes Gilroy brought to Dublin.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115504098&postcount=671

    Are you telling me other Leinster counties do not have a figure to organise and instil discipline? Plus do they not have access to third level facilities all those IT's and so on? Carlow, Dundalk, Athlone?

    Or centres of excellence?

    Meath GAA – Centre of Sporting Excellence

    http://www.meathsports.ie/facility/meath-gaa-centre-of-sporting-excellence/

    Kildare centre of excellence

    https://kildaregaa.ie/manguard-plus-kildare-gaa-centre-excellence/

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #673
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Cilldara_2000 wrote: »
    So how many well known and highly regarded players have you now written off as the nobody of all nobodies? Safe to say that if I want an honest appraisal on the strong footballers in any particular county, you won't be my first port of call.

    Well you tell me how many players from Kildare and Meath would get into the following starting teams?

    Kerry
    Donegal
    Tyrone
    Mayo
    Galway
    Monaghan

    Enlighten me!

    I said Newman and Menton from Meath. But I was told only Keogan would be considered for example.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #674
    Lissoy
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Lissoy


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I spoke about the benefits of training etc. that the Dublin football team enjoy and you go off waffling about politics and geography?

    Up to minor level Dublin do not have the same level of dominance in Leinster that they enjoy at U20/21 and senior. Of the last 10 Leinster minor championships Kildare and Dublin have won 4 each with Meath and Longford on 1 each but when you get to U20/21 Dublin have won 7 of the last 10 with Kildare winning 2 and Wexford the other 1. And then 10 out of 10 at senior level.
    Why are Dublin better able to transfer talent through from underage levels to senior? I understand that not all underage players make good senior players but Kildare are obviously doing something right with their juvenile structures but it has not resulted in an improvement in their senior team. Is it a more professional approach to coaching at senior level or better strength and conditioning that is more of an advantage in adults than juveniles? Or that guys outside of Dublin are more likely to live away from home or travel for college or work that the same level of focus cannot be achieved on their football careers?


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    #675
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,873 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    You said 'etc'. Dublin being the capital. politics and so on, will mean they always have an advantage. As for training it is not rocket science other Leinster counties are not complete eejits. Look at the sensible changes Gilroy brought to Dublin.

    Yeah, I was talking about training, the amount of coaches involved and all the perks in a sports sense associated with being on the Dublin panel. How on earth you made that out to be politics, business or geography is beyond me.

    I'm sure Gilroy is a great coach but he didn't need to be with what Dublin have. A huge pool to pick from is a big advantage, all the facilities, coaches and money to do what they need to is massive too.

    All I was saying is that Kildare or Meath given the same setup would be top five. They still wouldn't be beating Dublin due to not having as big of a pool to pick from.


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    #676
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Amazing how no Dublin players end up going to Australia?


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    #677
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    You said 'etc'. Dublin being the capital. politics and so on, will mean they always have an advantage. As for training it is not rocket science other Leinster counties are not complete eejits. Look at the sensible changes Gilroy brought to Dublin.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115504098&postcount=671

    Are you telling me other Leinster counties do not have a figure to organise and instil discipline? Plus do they not have access to third level facilities all those IT's and so on? Carlow, Dundalk, Athlone?

    Or centres of excellence?

    Meath GAA – Centre of Sporting Excellence

    http://www.meathsports.ie/facility/meath-gaa-centre-of-sporting-excellence/

    Kildare centre of excellence

    https://kildaregaa.ie/manguard-plus-kildare-gaa-centre-excellence/

    Athlone IT is 55mins drive from parts of Westmeath.
    30mins of that is motorway.
    So for eg a minor or U20 hurler or footballer to train down there it might be a round trip of 1hr 50mins


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    #678
    ShyMets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Yeah, I was talking about training, the amount of coaches involved and all the perks in a sports sense associated with being on the Dublin panel. How on earth you made that out to be politics, business or geography is beyond me.

    I'm sure Gilroy is a great coach but he didn't need to be with what Dublin have. A huge pool to pick from is a big advantage, all the facilities, coaches and money to do what they need to is massive too.

    All I was saying is that Kildare or Meath given the same setup would be top five. They still wouldn't be beating Dublin due to not having as big of a pool to pick from.

    Gilroy did need to be a very good manager. And personally I think he had a much tougher challenge then Jim Gavin.

    He took a team of mental fragile, no hopers out off the Leinster championship and in 3 years turned them in to All Ireland Champions.

    That wasn't so much down to coaching or facilities but more changing the mindset and cultural within the Dublin Football team


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    #679
    ShyMets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    Amazing how no Dublin players end up going to Australia?

    To be fair I think that's down to Dublin having more job opportunities. You can't blame Dublin GAA on the fact that Dublin economic Centre of Ireland

    Also Dublin lost James Madden to AFL who was a very fine prospect. And lets no forget that Ciaran Kilkenny went but came back


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    #680
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    I see another myth has been posted in the last few pages. The games development funding was all for the kids in primary school. Rubbish.

    Along with paying for professional coaches, Dublin also had well paid strategic officers in place. Their strategic program manager, Kevin O'Shaughnessy, had this to say: "The coaches work very much in tune with what the particular club wants", the coaches all had to have a high level qualification: "It is a high standard that allows them to train the trainers in each club to a high quality." Dublin also have a coaching and games officer. A few years ago, the then coaching and games officer Ger O'Connor had this to say: "The coaches don't just concentrate on hurling or football. They organise everything within a club and camogie and ladies football get the benefit too." Once again illustrating why it's not just Dublin senior footballers that the money has benefitted.

    Also, it wasn't 2005 when this began, it was prior to that and we also have first hand testimony from an actual development officer with huge experience in Dublin GAA. This quote is from long serving Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald on the differences he observed in development squads from when he set out 2 decades ago to the current time: "I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching. I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

    This all doesn't really sound like it's just a primary school operation to me. It's a multi layered system that has had huge benefits. The professional coaches had impacts on clubs right the way through, from the kids all the way up. Let's get a real example of this. Ballymun Kickams received the services of James Glancy. He was coaching the clubs minor team when he spotted 2 17 year olds called Dean Rock and James McCarthy. McCarthy in particular was very thin. Glancy assisted in getting gym equipment set up and watched over the transformation of McCarthy's physique. These were 2 talented players but were brought on again with the assistance of a development officer. Just one example again to show the help the money made. I don't believe Rock and McCarthy were still in primary school at 17 years of age.


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    #681
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,069 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Meath are probably the most under achieving county in the last 20 years anyway. Really should not be struggling like they are.

    Likes of Laois, Westmeath and even Carlow have done as as well as they did and they are dual counties


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    #682
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,406 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    Meath are probably the most under achieving county in the last 20 years anyway. Really should not be struggling like they are.

    Likes of Laois, Westmeath and even Carlow have done as as well as they did and they are dual counties

    More hurling clubs in Meath than Westmeath and Carlow combined.
    The problem in Meath is the influx of Dubs who have no allegiance to the county


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    #683
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Well you tell me how many players from Kildare and Meath would get into the following starting teams?

    Kerry
    Donegal
    Tyrone
    Mayo
    Galway
    Monaghan

    Enlighten me!

    I said Newman and Menton from Meath. But I was told only Keogan would be considered for example.

    Any luck with finding the decades that Dublin didn't compete at u21 level?


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    #684
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Enquiring wrote: »
    Any luck with finding the decades that Dublin didn't compete at u21 level?

    No, and it annoying to be honest! I found some general info on it ages ago wish I bookmarked it.

    I doubt it is something DCB want to be broadcasting. They were right eejits to not treat u21 properly.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #685
    ShyMets
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭ShyMets


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    No, and it annoying to be honest! I found it ages ago wish I bookmarked it.

    I doubt it is something DCB want to be broadcasting. They were right eejits to not treat u21 properly.

    They're were no decades when Dublin did not enter teams in to under 21. However there were periods of time from its inception in 1964 until the beginning of the 00's when Dublin did not enter a team. It was from the 00's that Dublin began to take it seriously. Even the great Kevin Hefferan had little time for the competition


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    #686
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    No, and it annoying to be honest! I found some general info on it ages ago wish I bookmarked it.

    I doubt it is something DCB want to be broadcasting. They were right eejits to not treat u21 properly.

    They didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986.


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    #687
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    ShyMets wrote: »
    Gilroy did need to be a very good manager. And personally I think he had a much tougher challenge then Jim Gavin.

    He took a team of mental fragile, no hopers out off the Leinster championship and in 3 years turned them in to All Ireland Champions.

    That wasn't so much down to coaching or facilities but more changing the mindset and cultural within the Dublin Football team

    Exactly, I still get annoyed thinking of the amount of times Dublin used to flop when in the lead. 2000 is one that is seared in my mind v Kildare and that was only the start of the proper Dublin slide downwards!

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #688
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    Enquiring wrote: »
    They didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986.

    Definitely a few more spells than that, plus the set up was farcical.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #689
    gormdubhgorm
    Registered Users Posts: 18,412 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    Athlone IT is 55mins drive from parts of Westmeath.
    30mins of that is motorway.
    So for eg a minor or U20 hurler or footballer to train down there it might be a round trip of 1hr 50mins

    Not too bad is it? Considering how hard it is to travel from one end of Dublin to the other.

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



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    #690
    Enquiring
    Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Enquiring


    gormdubhgorm wrote: »
    Definitely a few more spells than that, plus the set up was farcical.

    You were caught out telling porkies again.

    Things completely changed with the influx of a huge number of professional coaches.

    From 4 Leinsters and 0 All Irelands from 1964 - 2000 to 10 Leinsters and 5 All Irelands between 2000 and 2019.


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    #691
    GalwayMark
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭GalwayMark


    Enquiring wrote: »
    You were caught out telling porkies again.

    Things completely changed with the influx of a huge number of professional coaches.

    From 4 Leinsters and 0 All Irelands from 1964 - 2000 to 10 Leinsters and 5 All Irelands between 2000 and 2019.

    There was a couple of All Irelands in the former period including 1983 and then 1995 being the last 20th century title.


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