The Leinster Championship is dead.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Definitely a few more spells than that, plus the set up was farcical.

Dublin didn't compete u21 from 1985-1990.

Someone needs to lay off the KoolAid or Buckfast😉

Enquiring wrote: »

There wasn't more. Dublin won the Leinster u21 championship in 1984. How did they manage that if they didn't enter it?

Maybe your facts are wrong? You already said it was only the 80's I have shown you proof from the indo that Dublin did not enter teams for another period.

Maybe buy the 2017 AI u21 (Dublin v Galway) prog online? You can then flog it to me for twice the price if I can't find mine!

Fecking annoyed I can't find it I want to read it. I was definitely there!

ArielAtom wrote: »

Someone needs to lay off the KoolAid or Buckfast😉

I believe the phrase is 'bucky and some curry chips' (I am fluent in cluchie!)

Enquiring wrote: »

I see another myth has been posted in the last few pages. The games development funding was all for the kids in primary school. Rubbish.

Along with paying for professional coaches, Dublin also had well paid strategic officers in place. Their strategic program manager, Kevin O'Shaughnessy, had this to say: "The coaches work very much in tune with what the particular club wants", the coaches all had to have a high level qualification: "It is a high standard that allows them to train the trainers in each club to a high quality." Dublin also have a coaching and games officer. A few years ago, the then coaching and games officer Ger O'Connor had this to say: "The coaches don't just concentrate on hurling or football. They organise everything within a club and camogie and ladies football get the benefit too." Once again illustrating why it's not just Dublin senior footballers that the money has benefitted.

Also, it wasn't 2005 when this began, it was prior to that and we also have first hand testimony from an actual development officer with huge experience in Dublin GAA. This quote is from long serving Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald on the differences he observed in development squads from when he set out 2 decades ago to the current time: "I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching. I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

This all doesn't really sound like it's just a primary school operation to me. It's a multi layered system that has had huge benefits. The professional coaches had impacts on clubs right the way through, from the kids all the way up. Let's get a real example of this. Ballymun Kickams received the services of James Glancy. He was coaching the clubs minor team when he spotted 2 17 year olds called Dean Rock and James McCarthy. McCarthy in particular was very thin. Glancy assisted in getting gym equipment set up and watched over the transformation of McCarthy's physique. These were 2 talented players but were brought on again with the assistance of a development officer. Just one example again to show the help the money made. I don't believe Rock and McCarthy were still in primary school at 17 years of age.

James Glancy role in Ballymun was to coach in primary schools. He not a S&C coach. Paddy Christie managed and coached Rock and McCarthy. He might of brought Glancy as a selector as when managed Dublin minor had Glancy with him.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe the phrase is 'bucky and some curry chips' (I am fluent in cluchie!)

I can say with absolute certainty I have never heard of or had that combination. Curry chips are grand no matter where you're from surely. Your culchie translator is on the blink.

Enquiring wrote: »

You provided an article which stated that Dublin didn't compete in the u21 championship for years which included a year that they won the Leinster u21 title. :pac:

Your decades claim has been shown to be nonsense.

See below discussing the above.

Enquiring wrote: »

They didn't compete at u21 level for 3 years from 1986.

This has be proven to be incorrect. at least 85 -91 whether you like it or not.
I suggest you contact the DCB for concrete confirmation and behave like your username!

https://www.gaa.ie/features/feature/clubs-james-glancy-109973/

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

The Independent clearly is dodgy. The Leinster Council website has the roll of honour, I have match programmes in the house with the roll of honour. Who's dodgy - the committee in charge of running the competition or some badly informed journalist?

Interesting how the claim started as "Dublin u21's footballers did not compete at that level for gaps of over decades" and is now being consistently watered down in the face of easily verifiable evidence to the contrary.

People make mistakes but continued wild easily disprovable claims sort of water down the message of the person making these wild claims.

They are not wild claims as you well know. It is generally a well known fact Dublin did not compete for a number of spells in various decades.

ShyMets wrote: »

Just in terms of 1984 u21 Championship. Dublin did win Leinster but did not make it to the All Ireland Final.
https://www.dublingaa.ie/history/roll-of-honour

Dublin lost in AI u21 semi final to Mayo in 84

Scoundrel wrote: »

I agree splitting Dublin is the Nuclear option remove all of Dublin's unfair financial advantages first level the playing field that way and level it by not allowing Dublin play every single game at home.

All we are asking for is a level playing field here and if Dublin still dominate after that then so be it but we are simply asking for basic fairness from the governing body and we aren't getting it.

Kerry footballers get way more sponsorship money than Clare footballers.

Meath has a way bigger population than Longford.

What sort of a level playing field are you looking for?

I have looked at how Westmeath fared in the NFL between 1999-2000 and how many Leinster Finals Westmeath have got to.

Westmeath in NFL and Leinster

2020 div 2

2019 div 3 won

2018 div3

2017 div 4

2016 div 3 relegated

2015 div 2 relegated

2014 div 1 relegated (no wins no draws)

2013 div 2 promoted

2012 div 2

2011 div 3 promoted

2010 div 2 relegated

2009 div 1 relegated (no wins no draws)

2008 div 2 promoted

2007 div 1b relegated to the new div 2

2006 div 2a promoted

2005 div 1a relegated (one win one draw)

2004 div 1a

2003 div 2a (winners div 2)

2002 div1a relegated (one win)

2001 winners div 2

2000 div 2a

1999 div 2

On the basis of this between 2013 and and 2016 it could be argued Westmeath were better than Meath (or at least on a par) as Meath had an absence from division 1 for 13 years until 2020. Even though Westmeath slid down the leagues subsequently, following 2014 They did defeat Meath in 2015 in the Leinster Championship and they proved it was no fluke by defeating Kildare in the following season in Leinster.
'Focusing on the championship' was the phrased used about Westmeath in 2015/2016 I believe. To take it handy in the league and go old school.
In my view approximately that period where Meath and Kildare fell off the cliff standards wise in Leinster and left a bit of a 'power vacuum' for even 2nd/3rd/4th best in Leinster.

In the 136 years of the GAA. Westmeath have only won Leinster once in 2004 thanks to the ‘Paidi effect’.

Westmeath only appeared in four Leinster finals in the 136 year history of the GAA

Westmeath's Leinster Final appearances

2016 (Hammered by Dublin by 15 points)

2015 (Hammered by Dublin by 13 points)

2004 (Paidi’s win)

1949 (Meath hammered them by 11 points - 4 goals scored)

1931 (Kildare beat them by 6 points)

Yet John Connellen is only a ‘concerned Gael’ in 2020???

Quite frankly I think John Connellen is completely deluded if he thinks money alone, is the answer to help Westmeath compete.

Throughout their recent league history (20 years or so) Westmeath have been a div 2 team at best or a div 4 team at worst. Mostly div 2.
When getting in div 1 they have been relegated .
Most recently with no wins and no draws in 2014 div 1.
The same as Kildare who had no win and no draws in div 1 in 2018 and were relegated.
Similar to Meath this year who had no wins and one draw relegated from div 1.

dunnerc wrote: »

Welcome back:rolleyes:
This is not " The Dominance of Dublin GAA Thread ";)

But it is.

The mindset of many of the posters on this thread who believe that Dublin’s success was solely down to funding, reminds me a lot of those conspiracy theorists.

You know? Those sort who believe that the earth is flat. The ‘flat earther’s’ as they are known.
They always return to the same issue and would defend their argument to the hilt that the demise of Leinster is solely because of ‘Dublin’s money'

Now as a reasonable person, I believe that the funding Dublin received has had some effect. But it is not the sole reason.

To any reasonable person there are a number of other factors, which also contributed to the current scenario..

1) Talent: How Dublin’s youngsters are a tremendous generation - not caused because of money - but because of their natural gifts and how Dublin at last took a proper focus on their underage structure. Dublin won the u21 AI for the first time in 2003. After years of treating it with distain and in some decades not even competing at all! Dublin also won the Junior AI in 2008 many of whom played an integral part in Dublin’s current era

2) Dublin Management - Which relates to the above Pat Gilroy and Jim Gavin in particular built on the groundwork laid by Pillar Caffery. Jim was a particular link between u21 and senior winning the u21 in 2003. 2010 and 2012. Gilroy was key in blooding players prior to this and cutting out the less committed to the jersey. He also went back to basics with Dublin’s tactics initially making them harder to beat. But even prior to Dublin's AI in 2011 I would argue Kerry and Tyrone were just too good for Dublin a different level,

It is no coincidence the both Gilroy and Gavin both work in professions where they have to show a high level of organisational skills. Plus be leaders of men

3) Boylan, Paidi, Micko - Leinster rivals losing top managers - It is no coincidence that rapid fall in standards of Meath, Kildare and Laois have coincided with the loss of great GAA managers. Plus Westmeath’s only win was because of one great man.

4) Poor subsequent management appointments and mismanagement - It has been about 15 years since Paidi managed West Meath how have Westmeath fared since in the league and even outside Leinster. It is also the similar amount of time that Boylan has left Meath and Micko has left Laois/Kildare

Meath and Kildare have done decent at underage level in Leinster why has the talent not come through and shone in the league/qualifiers or super 8’s. Kildare have even won a u20 AI yet there is no real improvement.

Personally I think it is right to question Kildare tactically because of this. Given the talent they are supposed to have how come we have not seen real signs of improvement. An u21 runners up in 2008 and an u20 win in 2018

5) Antiquated Provincial Structures - The provincials are no longer fit for purpose in the 21st century. Particularly, when you analyse the standard of teams. In Leinster there is only one consistent div 1 team that would be considered top 7. It is not fair the levels in standard are not comparable. The provincials have long being an inequitable, and lopsided competitions. Only won by the same few teams with very occasional interruption.


6) Population - larger population does not guarantee success as Meath and Kildare have shown against Carlow, Westmeath and Longford respectively - if the team is not managed correctly. Or if opponents have managers who use their tactics cleverly to negate population advantage.

But, it is just a fact of life that Dublin is the Capital of Ireland and therefore has the larger population. It is likely this will always put them as a dominant team of a Leinster era even in periods of Dublin mismanagement. The 'culchie brain drain' also keeps GAA alive in Dublin. They settle down and settle in the GAA passing the love of the games on to their little Dubs. Plus many are heavily involved in Dublin clubs.

This is despite the fact that vast areas of Dublin have no or very weak GAA , unlike most parts of the rest of the Island of Ireland (Except NI).
Dublin have strong competitors in rugby and soccer. In many places in Ireland the GAA is the heartbeat of an area. It is not always the case in Dublin. You can go to some places and you would not even know ‘the match’ is on that weekend.



—

It occurs to me that many of the posters who believe 'leinster being dead' is the fault of Dublin solely are of the mindset of 'don’t blame us it is not our fault'.


Or to quote 'Dustin the Turkey'. Who sums up the mindset of much of this thread, and particularly the OP:




I will dedicate this song to all of those of those of this mindset

Especially, John Connellen, Scoundrel, Enquiring, Ewan McKenna et all this one is for youse!