The Leinster Championship is dead.

Scoundrel

Tombo2001 wrote: »

You need to clarify your statement.

You say: all counties should get equal funding from GAA.

So Dublin GAA - with 50000 active GAA members - should get the same amount of funding as Leitrim - with 1000 active GAA members?

Is this fair?

I'd broadly agree on the sponsorship issue - but here is the thing, the sponsors arent in it to make weaker counties better; they are in it to get exposure.

Toyota will want a Dublin player driving their car. Not sure how you get around this.

Maybe you'd prefer if nobody got any sponsorship (being honest, that mightnt be the worst thing in the world).

Given that Dublin is in a position to fund itself should it get any funding at all?
In the wider interest of the game everyone should get the same yes. Dublin receiving 20 times more than the next county is absolutely scandalous.

I take your point about the private companies and perhaps you are right the only way to stop that is to stop all sponsorship entirely afterall we are still supposed to be an amateur game;)

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

Dublin are the only county uniquely unfairly advantaged in terms of the scale, nature, duration and combination of their advantages. These unfair advantages include massive population, hugely disproportionate funding and playing all semi- finals and finals in their home stadium.

This thread is about Leinster Championship. Dublin having these unfair advantages and utilising them well is the reason the province is dead.

So we need to split Dublin and then we can look at other issues. That is the first and most important step to helping all counties in Leinster.



Thanks, hope you're well. I'm always happy to talk about how to help the Leinster Championship too. Unfortunately this also requires Dublin to be split.

Other posters including myself have put forward options of improving Leinster without first resorting to splitting Dublin.

Yet you want to resort to the Nuclear option first. Why is that

gormdubhgorm

dunnerc wrote: »

Welcome back:rolleyes:
This is not " The Dominance of Dublin GAA Thread"

According to the OP who soundly corrected me, for discussing all the issues which cause 'Leinster to be dead'.

I think it was intended to be a backdoor on the same discussion. A dominance of Dublin GAA thread part II, if you will.

It appears the OP did not want any other issues except one issue (Dublin's Finances) discussed.
Instead of a discussion of why Leinster is dead and all the factors leading to the current situation.

I did not read the whole thread but I can take a guess that I am the only one who mentioned a more proactive use of the parentage rule. I doubt many even heard of it since they seem to assume Declan Darcy was a Dub. Another seemed to think Balymun and Finglas were in Fingal, Yet these are the sort of calibre of individuals we are expected to have a discussion with. Maybe it is the Dublin Dominance thread for slow learners?

gaffer91

ShyMets wrote: »

Other posters including myself have put forward options of improving Leinster without first resorting to splitting Dublin.

Yet you want to resort to the Nuclear option first. Why is that

Any proposal that doesn't involve a split of Dublin is pointless window dressing. They've been unfairly advantaged for so long by funding, population etc, that without a split their dominance is now endless. This goes for both the All-Ireland and Leinster as a matter of fact. So splitting Dublin helps every county in Leinster.

The reason I conclude that splitting Dublin is the correct approach is because I am a big supporter of Gaelic games and their survival. Not splitting Dublin threatens the marquee inter-county competition which would be very damaging to the sport and its uptake and popularity at club and underage levels. It's not a "nuclear option", it's a logical step that would help Gaelic Football in every county, including Dublin.

gormdubhgorm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Given that Dublin is in a position to fund itself should it get any funding at all?

I actually agree with this Dublin no longer needs funding or at least as much it is now in a position to be almost self sufficient.

Thanks to shrewd management, excellent players, and more importantly the creation of a 'Dublin GAA brand'.

I have no problem giving the lesser lights of Leinster more funding. As I already mentioned the GAA have implemented the Leinster East Coast strategy. Throwing money at those Leinster counties in need.

However, money is no guarantee of success or even improvement. If the right people are not put in place. Dublin were blessed to have men of the calibre of Gilroy, Gavin. And still have John Costello. When you compare the calibre of these men an other sport in popular Dublin called Soccer. It is night and day 'genius' Dubs like Noel King end up embedded in Soccer!

ArielAtom

Scoundrel wrote: »

Given that Dublin is in a position to fund itself should it get any funding at all?
In the wider interest of the game everyone should get the same yes. Dublin receiving 20 times more than the next county is absolutely scandalous.

I take your point about the private companies and perhaps you are right the only way to stop that is to stop all sponsorship entirely afterall we are still supposed to be an amateur game;)

I tend to agree with you here, but this could also be aimed at other counties with high profile sponsors. At what level of private sponsorship do we stop central funding. Will counties then just stop seeking sponsorship when they hit the threshold? Its a difficult one.

gormdubhgorm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Any proposal that doesn't involve a split of Dublin is pointless window dressing. They've been unfairly advantaged for so long by funding, population etc, that without a split their dominance is now endless. This goes for both the All-Ireland and Leinster as a matter of fact. So splitting Dublin helps every county in Leinster.

The reason I conclude that splitting Dublin is the correct approach is because I am a big supporter of Gaelic games and their survival. Not splitting Dublin threatens the marquee inter-county competition which would be very damaging to the sport and its uptake and popularity at club and underage levels. It's not a "nuclear option", it's a logical step that would help Gaelic Football in every county, including Dublin.

Would you consider amalgamation of counties in Leinster? Meath plus Kildare for example?

It is far easier to join up structures already there, rather than destroy a current one and have to build more.

If Dublin did spilt it would likely be all Dublin finals in Leinster. The Leinster counties are that poor.
It is only an attempt to camouflage how weak the other counties are.

A better solution would be to give Meath and Kildare a quota of Dublin players each not on panel..

LuasSimon

I see Leinster minor football back up and running with quarter finals next weekend, couldnt see Dublins name , turns out looking back at first rounds Meath had given Dublin a bad beating?...how did that happen ?

gormdubhgorm

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see Leinster minor football back up and running with quarter finals next weekend, couldnt see Dublins name , turns out looking back at first rounds Meath had given Dublin a bad beating?...how did that happen ?

Must be all the 'extra training' Meath get from that money they have? They must have sold the 'Book of Kells' on ebay?

LuasSimon

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see Leinster minor football back up and running with quarter finals next weekend, couldnt see Dublins name , turns out looking back at first rounds Meath had given Dublin a bad beating?...how did that happen ?

Kildare have won 3 of the last 5 years minor titles, Meath one and Dublin one. Surely this means Kildare and Meath seniors should be fairly competitive in the next few years.
Clubs in Naas, Leixlip, Celbridge , Athy etc should be every bit as organised and well resourced as the Dublin club scene ?

gaffer91

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would you consider amalgamation of counties in Leinster? Meath plus Kildare for example?

It is far easier to join up structures already there, rather than destroy a current one and have to build more.

If Dublin did spilt it would likely be all Dublin finals in Leinster. The Leinster counties are that poor.
It is only an attempt to camouflage how weak the other counties are.

A better solution would be to give Meath and Kildare a quota of Dublin players each not on panel..

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered but Dublin should be split whether their county board and supporters are in favour of a split or not. I genuinely feel most Dublin supporters would quickly row in behind their new sub-county sides.

The fact you acknowledge that split Dublin teams would result in all Dublin finals shows how far ahead Dublin are of the rest. If this was done fairly then I would of course fully support them. But we know the gap in large part is because of unfair advantages such as population, funding, home advantage etc. So the fact that Dublin subdivisional sides would continue to be so dominant is just an argument for a large split (e.g a four way split rather than a two way split).

Scoundrel

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see Leinster minor football back up and running with quarter finals next weekend, couldnt see Dublins name , turns out looking back at first rounds Meath had given Dublin a bad beating?...how did that happen ?

It is simply further evidence of the fact that the problem isn't the lack of talent in Meath or Kildare or any of the other counties it's that the Dublin underage players graduate to a multi million euro IC set up and the others don't..

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

Any proposal that doesn't involve a split of Dublin is pointless window dressing. They've been unfairly advantaged for so long by funding, population etc, that without a split their dominance is now endless. This goes for both the All-Ireland and Leinster as a matter of fact. So splitting Dublin helps every county in Leinster.

The reason I conclude that splitting Dublin is the correct approach is because I am a big supporter of Gaelic games and their survival. Not splitting Dublin threatens the marquee inter-county competition which would be very damaging to the sport and its uptake and popularity at club and underage levels. It's not a "nuclear option", it's a logical step that would help Gaelic Football in every county, including Dublin.

I disagree. Splitting Dublin only creates an artificial level playing field. You vaguely mention implementing other other changes in the GAA. But I suspect that if a spilt did occur in 4 ways and Dublin stopped being dominate then I think you would be happy with the status quo.

It strikes me that you're only motive is to weaken Dublin

Scoundrel

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would you consider amalgamation of counties in Leinster? Meath plus Kildare for example?

It is far easier to join up structures already there, rather than destroy a current one and have to build more.

If Dublin did spilt it would likely be all Dublin finals in Leinster. The Leinster counties are that poor.
It is only an attempt to camouflage how weak the other counties are.

A better solution would be to give Meath and Kildare a quota of Dublin players each not on panel..

Over my dead body I'd rather be Kildare and ****e than some perverse Meath Kildare hybrid.

ShyMets

gaffer91 wrote: »

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered but Dublin should be split whether their county board and supporters are in favour of a split or not. I genuinely feel most Dublin supporters would quickly row in behind their new sub-county sides.

The fact you acknowledge that split Dublin teams would result in all Dublin finals shows how far ahead Dublin are of the rest. If this was done fairly then I would of course fully support them. But we know the gap in large part is because of unfair advantages such as population, funding, home advantage etc. So the fact that Dublin subdivisional sides would continue to be so dominant is just an argument for a large split (e.g a four way split rather than a two way split).

So it okay for voluntary amalgamations but Dublin must be spilt and spilt into 4 at that.

You're agenda is clear. You simply want to weaken Dublin

Scoundrel

ArielAtom wrote: »

I tend to agree with you here, but this could also be aimed at other counties with high profile sponsors. At what level of private sponsorship do we stop central funding. Will counties then just stop seeking sponsorship when they hit the threshold? Its a difficult one.

It is difficult but as fair and as level a financial playing field as possible has to be the start otherwise the football championship itself will die AI finals will stop selling out and people will simply stop watching a boring rigged non competitive championship. Look at the abysmal crowds at super 8 games there was 33k at a semi final it is already happening surely even the dubs must be getting bored of this now? It's facile

Did you smash it

LuasSimon wrote: »

Kildare have won 3 of the last 5 years minor titles, Meath one and Dublin one. Surely this means Kildare and Meath seniors should be fairly competitive in the next few years.
Clubs in Naas, Leixlip, Celbridge , Athy etc should be every bit as organised and well resourced as the Dublin club scene ?

There are 134 clubs in Dublin and 57 in Kildare. So when kildare runs out of naas’ leixlip’s etc, Dublin is still going strong with more clubs. Kind of like a Duracell battery over an own brand you buy in Aldi.

Dublin>Kildare in simple language.

gaffer91

ShyMets wrote: »

I disagree. Splitting Dublin only creates an artificial level playing field. You vaguely mention implementing other other changes in the GAA. But I suspect that if a spilt did occur in 4 ways and Dublin stopped being dominate then I think you would be happy with the status quo.

It strikes me that you're only motive is to weaken Dublin

Not at all. I have no animosity towards Dublin GAA, I just want what is best for Gaelic games to be done i.e split Dublin.

There are other changes that can be offered e.g pooled funding, equal spending on inter-county teams after certain variables are taken into account, voluntary amalgamations etc. But all of this is pointless without a split of Dublin so best to focus energy and attention on that first.

Did you smash it

Scoundrel wrote: »

Over my dead body I'd rather be Kildare and ****e than some perverse Meath Kildare hybrid.

As a Kildare man, I would happily see kildare, meath and Westmeath join up. It’s 10 or so years away but I’ll reckon it’ll happen. It’s becoming clear that the level GAA has gone to at the best of best I.e. Dublin is that you have 30 players who will perform excellently every time they play. Kildare have a talented team at the moment but all that means is we have 5 players who could perform at their optimum around Dublin’s level. Kildare is never going to be big enough to produce 30 footballers of this level. Football has gone into a completely different stratosphere in terms of the level Dublin have got to over the past 10 years. Dublin would wipe the floor with the tyrone and kerry teams of 00s. That can be seen by the scoring tallies they are producing that those teams of 00 couldn’t live with.

The present competition system hasn’t worked properly for 15 years. It’ll be time soon to address this gaping reality.

gormdubhgorm

gaffer91 wrote: »

Voluntary amalgamations can be offered but Dublin should be split whether their county board and supporters are in favour of a split or not. I genuinely feel most Dublin supporters would quickly row in behind their new sub-county sides.

Lots of Dubs would go ape and rip up season tickets never to attend a game again, some would view it as bit of craic and curiosity.

But to get to that point first you would have to develop a whole new County Board structure.

Plus would you as a GAA man be happy fund a new Dublin stadium or two, to accommodate the two teams? Dublin has no 25k 30k stadium. There are two GAA stadiums on the Northside of Dublin one too big (CP) and the other too small (Parnell).

To create a whole two Counties out of one is as big a problem as Brexit. Easier said than done, Very difficult on many levels

Plus, I would say the GAA will lose money on branding sponsorship and so on. In fact it could well inversely effect the Leinster Council coffers for a long time.

The fact you acknowledge that split Dublin teams would result in all Dublin finals shows how far ahead Dublin are of the rest. If this was done fairly then I would of course fully support them. But we know the gap in large part is because of unfair advantages such as population, funding, home advantage etc. So the fact that Dublin subdivisional sides would continue to be so dominant is just an argument for a large split (e.g a four way split rather than a two way split).

Not completely true it is also down to Meath and Kildare making a balls of what they have neither are a top 7 team anymore and have been beaten by Carlow, Westmeath and Longford (on 5 occasions in 10 years between them)

In other words Kildare and Meath have gone way backwards div 2 teams in reality.

Also Kildare and Meath failed to get managers who could effect change and improvement like Micko, Boylan etc. Outside Leinster at Super 8 level, and top 7 div 1 proves this. Kildare and Meath are crap. compared to the top 7 in the country as simple as that.

Amalgamation is a much more feasible solution for Kildare and Meath. The GAA are well used to it at club level. This would be club level on a bigger scale.

Plus the existing structures in Kildare and Meath GAA could be kept as hubs for the new Lilly-Royal team. Easy to make a logo for that as well.

gormdubhgorm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Over my dead body I'd rather be Kildare and ****e than some perverse Meath Kildare hybrid.

Did you smash it wrote: »

As a Kildare man, I would happily see kildare, meath and Westmeath join up. It’s 10 or so years away but I’ll reckon it’ll happen. It’s becoming clear that the level GAA has gone to at the best of best I.e. Dublin is that you have 30 players who will perform excellently every time they play. Kildare have a talented team at the moment but all that means is we have 5 players who could perform at their optimum around Dublin’s level. Kildare is never going to be big enough to produce 30 footballers of this level. Football has gone into a completely different stratosphere in terms of the level Dublin have got to over the past 10 years. Dublin would wipe the floor with the tyrone and kerry teams of 00s. That can be seen by the scoring tallies they are producing that those teams of 00 couldn’t live with.

The present competition system hasn’t worked properly for 15 years. It’ll be time soon to address this gaping reality.

The problem is with any big amalgamation or spilt it could take years to settle.
Would be a fall off in attendances, protests, job losses etc.

Easier option is to scrap provincials and set up a league based system tied into a championship. Give it five years and see how people take to it.

I firmly believe that this is what the GAA have started doing with the Super 8's.
But this being the GAA it has to be nudged along to that point of a number league championship of home and away. Where teams of equal level play before a knock out.
I bet it had been said behind closed doors, but they know it would never pass at Council in one go so has to be bit by bit.

Home and away super 8's next step I think.

Did you smash it

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Lots of Dubs would go ape and rip up season tickets never to attend a game again, some would view it as bit of craic and curiosity.

But to get to that point first you would have to develop a whole new County Board structure.

Plus would you as a GAA man be happy fund a new Dublin stadium or two to accommodate the two teams. Dublin has no 25k 30k stadium. There are two GAA stadiums on the Northside of Dublin one too big (CP) and the other too small (Parnell).

To create a whole two Counties out of one is as big a problem as Brexit. Easier said than done, Very difficult on many levels

Plus, I would say the GAA will lose money on branding sponsorship and so on. In fact it could well inversely effect the Leinster Council coffers for a long time.



Not completely true it is also down to Meath and Kildare making a balls of what they have neither are a top 7 team anymore and have been beaten by Carlow, Westmeath and Longford (on 5 occasions in 10 years between them)

In other words Kildare and Meath have gone way backwards div 2 teams in reality.

Also Kildare and Meath failed to get managers who could effect change and improvement like Micko, Boylan etc. Outside Leinster at Super 8 level, and top 7 div 1 proves this. Kildare and Meath are crap. compared to the top 7 in the country as simple as that.

Amalgamation is a much more feasible solution for Kildare and Meath. The GAA are well used to it at club level. This would be club level on a bigger scale.

Plus the existing structures in Kildare and Meath GAA could be kept as hubs for the new Lilly-Royal team. Easy to make a logo for that as well.

Along with amalgamations, Dublin would have to be split as well. A stadium would have to be built on the south side. There’s capacity to split Dublin and it’s the only way to have population sizes to be in anyway in line even with amalgamations.

Did you smash it

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The problem is with any big amalgamation or spilt it could take years to settle.
Would be a fall off in attendances, protests, job losses etc.

Easier option is to scrap provincials and set up a league based system tied into a championship. Give it five years and see how people take to it.

I firmly believe that this is what the GAA have started doing with the Super 8's.
But this being the GAA it has to be nudged along to that point of a number league championship of home and away. Where teams of equal level play before a knock out.
I bet it had been said behind closed doors, but they know it would never pass at Council in one go so has to be bit by bit.

Home and away super 8's next step I think.

This doesn’t make any sense with the existence of Dublin. There is no league out there that can be made of teams that can compete with Dublin. Kerry is the only team to get within spitting distance of them last year in championship. Every other team including Mayo got beaten by double figures.

As I predicted in 2013, Leinster is dead and the rest of Ireland is next.

Tombo2001

Scoundrel wrote: »

Given that Dublin is in a position to fund itself should it get any funding at all?
In the wider interest of the game everyone should get the same yes. Dublin receiving 20 times more than the next county is absolutely scandalous.

I take your point about the private companies and perhaps you are right the only way to stop that is to stop all sponsorship entirely afterall we are still supposed to be an amateur game;)

So the child in the country deserves more funding than the child in Dublin.

Where is the level playing field in that?

gormdubhgorm

Did you smash it wrote: »

Along with amalgamations, Dublin would have to be split as well. A stadium would have to be built on the south side. There’s capacity to split Dublin and it’s the only way to have population sizes to be in anyway in line even with amalgamations.

It would be a massive cost. If there was amalgamations either voluntary/compulsory as well as a spilt.There would be less bitterness if it was the case of just county being spilt aka Dublin.

But GAA heads are mad for tradition. I would be rare I would suppose, and would like to see a complete revamp spilts amalgamations. Whatever people agree/decide on. And competition restructure across the GAA.

Which is why I believe club will take over far in the future. Easier build on that over time in parallel with any new intercounty scene.

gormdubhgorm

Did you smash it wrote: »

This doesn’t make any sense with the existence of Dublin. There is no league out there that can be made of teams that can compete with Dublin. Kerry is the only team to get within spitting distance of them last year in championship. Every other team including Mayo got beaten by double figures.

As I predicted in 2013, Leinster is dead and the rest of Ireland is next.

Of course there is.

Kerry Dublin and Mayo in the same province of three.

I would put Galway Kildare Tyrone in another province.

Donegal, Monaghan Meath in another province

Cavan Tipp Cork in another province.


12 teams all of fairly equal levels in each pot/province.

It is no more daft than the current provincial system anway!

Home and away top two or one qualify for knockouts whatever way you want to put it.

I would attend all the games as a neutral if Mayo Dublin and Kerry were in the same province!

Provinces reviewed on a bi-annual basis based on NFL promotion and relegation over the two seasons and on 'ranking points'.

Guaranteed good games all around in all 'provinces'.

--
--

Other counties not mentioned can have their own championship all-ireland B/C whatever.

Similar system. Yeah I know the Rossies would feel hard done by but they could earn the right in two years time. (To go in instead of Cavan Tipp or Cork)

Sort of like a nations league soccer idea.

Did you smash it

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Of course there is.

Kerry Dublin and Mayo in the same province of three.

I would put Galway Kildare Tyrone in another province.

Donegal, Monaghan Meath in another province

Cavan Tipp Cork in another province.


12 teams all of fairly equal levels in each pot/province.

It is no more daft than the current provincial system anway!

Home and away top two or one qualify for knockouts whatever way you want to put it.

I would attend all the games as a neutral if Mayo Dublin and Kerry were in the same province!

Provinces reviewed on a bi-annual basis based on NFL promotion and relegation over the two seasons on ranking points.

Guaranteed good games all around in all 'provinces'.

--
--

Other counties not mentioned can have their own championship all-ireland B/C whatever.

Three to a province and you put the three best teams- Dublin, Kerry and Mayo in one province. And three teams who are OK; Cavan, tipp and cork in another province. How does that make sense?

gormdubhgorm

Did you smash it wrote: »

Three to a province and you put the three best teams- Dublin, Kerry and Mayo in one province. And three teams who are OK; Cavan, tipp and cork in another province. How does that make sense?

'Competitive games' and revenue that is the reason. They do it in the nations league in soccer.

It is exactly the same thing that people want in a weakened Leinster (no dubs) div 2 type teams or a weakened Munster (no Kerry)

Ulster is overburdened with teams as is. Connacht throws in NY and London yet has two div 1 teams! Plus Leitrim and Sligo how is that sensible?

At the moment does Munster, Ulster, Connacht, and Leinster make sense would you have thought up that from scratch?

Did you smash it

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They do it in the nations league in soccer.

No they don’t.

They don’t have the winners from league A playing the league B, C or D winners in the nations league. Because watching Spain playing north Macedonia in a big Semi final is a waste of time.

Your proposal makes no sense. You’re putting all the best teams in one group and having the worst teams in one group and making qualification rights to be the same from each. Hence Kerry and Mayo would want to be relegated to get out of Dublins group and into a easy group.

Strumms

Scoundrel wrote: »

Given that Dublin is in a position to fund itself should it get any funding at all?
In the wider interest of the game everyone should get the same yes. Dublin receiving 20 times more than the next county is absolutely scandalous.

I take your point about the private companies and perhaps you are right the only way to stop that is to stop all sponsorship entirely afterall we are still supposed to be an amateur game;)

There are more players, more clubs more demand for the funding to cover in Dublin...

By logic which you’d propose, Wicklow should be demanding a fairer share of not only funding that goes to Dublin, but funding that Cork, Galway, Kerry, Armagh, Limerick all receive...despite have a fraction of the teams and players...

So what’s the answer, just write the county’s an even cheque... say 100,000 each ?

The people in Dublin involved in GAA... football, hurling, camogie and handball are spread over...

91 clubs

Tens of thousands of players

It’s cost of running GAA clubs in the capital requires seriously higher amount of cash, just to get from January to December... cost of everything from insurance, transport, light / heat...admin....

At the end of the day, funding is a non issue... because if Dublin were given 60 million in funding but were knocked out of Leinster.... hardly anybody gives a fûck about funding ... the upshot and endgame is to stop Dublin winning...

There can be 157 all weather pitches with floodlights, bars with robot lap-dancing beer juggling, laser shooting beings in Dublin clubs but... if Dublin are not winning, nobody cares... Dublin still doing the basics right, winning... uproar.