Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Icyseanfitz

CruelSummer wrote: »

I've made many suggestions previously. But I haven't seen any suggestions from the people calling for the schools to close, or indeed didn't seem to want them to reopen at all in September. Here are a few of the main points I've made:
1. Keep primary level open as they transmit the virus less. Online teaching and learning for this agegroup was a failure and will not work.
2. Keep Secondary open as students will lose their minds stuck at home separated from their peers. Expect to see large gatherings congregating and drinking as a result.
3. Educational outcomes in all models show if children miss education as they have done for a long period of time, their prospects into adulthood diminish hugely. Not to mention the mental and emotional damage this may also cause.
4. Many parents will lose their jobs if schools close
5. If hospitals or ICU are becoming overwhelmed then switch to the blended learning model, keeping students connected with their teachers and schools - and on track educationally.

Now where are your suggestions, or will you just spend the next few posts criticising mine while suggesting nothing?

so your recommendations for safer schools is to do nothing basically? Things are all really bad at the moment, we should be making use of blended/hybrid learning at post primary, and we should have been doing it from reopening.

xhomelezz

CruelSummer wrote: »

I've made many suggestions previously. But I haven't seen any suggestions from the people calling for the schools to close, or indeed didn't seem to want them to reopen at all in September. Here are a few of the main points I've made:
1. Keep primary level open as they transmit the virus less. Online teaching and learning for this agegroup was a failure and will not work.
2. Keep Secondary open as students will lose their minds stuck at home separated from their peers. Expect to see large gatherings congregating and drinking as a result.
3. Educational outcomes in all models show if children miss education as they have done for a long period of time, their prospects into adulthood diminish hugely. Not to mention the mental and emotional damage this may also cause.
4. Many parents will lose their jobs if schools close
5. If hospitals or ICU are becoming overwhelmed then switch to the blended learning model, keeping students connected with their teachers and schools - and on track educationally.

Now where are your suggestions, or will you just spend the next few posts criticising mine while suggesting nothing?

There was tons of suggestions on this thread already. Just take your precious time and instead of posting read for a while. Won't hurt ya.

thomasdylan

niamh247 wrote: »

Suggestions? Fully switch to online learning like all other sensible countries do.

Your reasons are incoherent and unrelated to education or learning and invented to support the main reason of enabling parents to work.

Schools are NOT primarily meant to be some child minding centers , though we use them that way due to pathetic situation where having children at home is considered horrible.

If we can't afford or tolerate children being with family at home, that's pathetic.

Keeping teenagers disconnected with family is causing the gang culture. They need to be able interact with all age groups not just with same age groups.

This is a far more incoherent post than the one you're replying to. Lots of accusations flying off at parents too.

You're accusing someone if inventing reasons to keep schools open when you're inventing your own reasons to have them closed.

You'd want to stick your head out of your middle class bubble if you thinks it's 'pathetic' that some families might not be able to afford to stay at home with their kids.

xhomelezz

thomasdylan wrote: »

This is a far more incoherent post than the one you're replying to. Lots of accusations flying off at parents too.

You're accusing someone if inventing reasons to keep schools open when you're inventing your own reasons to have them closed.

You'd want to stick your head out of your middle class bubble if you thinks it's 'pathetic' that some families might not be able to afford to stay at home with their kids.

Not backing up poster you replied to, BUT parents are responsible for their children at the end of the day, not school or anyone else.

BonsaiKitten

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

The guidelines and suggestions for primary school return to school included singing as far as I remember. There was a lot of confusion about it. Technically it’s not forbidden as far as I know

Yep. In fact, they actually encouraged its use for teaching and learning! More than once iirc.

Think singing is a risk myself - and I'm not singing with mine as we're doing other music stuff anyway - but I'm not sure how much of a difference banning it would realistically make. The kids are all over each other at yard time anyway, plenty of breathing into one another's face going on.

CruelSummer

I’ve read many pages of this thread all week and all I can find are people creating reasons to close the schools, with no interest into carrying on educating the children. One poster responded to my post stating ‘Switch to online as the only sensible option’. I don’t think many posters here are living in reality making these suggestions.
As I predicted, post after post criticising my suggestions but offering none in return. Or even editing of mine.
But there’ll be plenty of links to tweets of hysterical parents with school cases lists & their Facebook groups. Same parents quizzing their children about school until they extract information that isn’t Covid safe, today it’s that they might sing a song once in awhile, shocker! I hope said parent is wearing a mask and full PPE for the weekend around their now at risk child after their disgraceful singing session in school. Oh and don’t forget to tweet & contact some media outlets to drum up fear and hysteria. I’m sure it won’t affect their child the way they’re behaving.

wirelessdude01

CruelSummer wrote: »

I’ve read many pages of this thread all week and all I can find are people creating reasons to close the schools, with no interest into carrying on educating the children. One poster responded to my post stating ‘Switch to online as the only sensible option’. I don’t think many posters here are living in reality making these suggestions.
As I predicted, post after post criticising my suggestions but offering none in return. Or even editing of mine.
But there’ll be plenty of links to tweets of hysterical parents with school cases lists & their Facebook groups. Same parents quizzing their children about school until they extract information that isn’t Covid safe, today it’s that they might sing a song once in awhile, shocker! I hope said parent is wearing a mask and full PPE for the weekend around their now at risk child after their disgraceful singing session in school. Oh and don’t forget to tweet & contact some media outlets to drum up fear and hysteria. I’m sure it won’t affect their child the way they’re behaving.

Good man/woman yourself. You tell them 🙄

byhookorbycrook

The problem is that there is no standard platform to allow us to “ switch to online education.” Norma Foley and her predecessor have had since March to establish such a platform and didn’t . So schools are now paying private companies like SeeSaw and Aladdin to make some sort of remote learning possible . And guess who ends up funding those platforms ? Parents . Again.

xhomelezz

CruelSummer wrote: »

I’ve read many pages of this thread all week and all I can find are people creating reasons to close the schools, with no interest into carrying on educating the children. One poster responded to my post stating ‘Switch to online as the only sensible option’. I don’t think many posters here are living in reality making these suggestions.
As I predicted, post after post criticising my suggestions but offering none in return. Or even editing of mine.
But there’ll be plenty of links to tweets of hysterical parents with school cases lists & their Facebook groups. Same parents quizzing their children about school until they extract information that isn’t Covid safe, today it’s that they might sing a song once in awhile, shocker! I hope said parent is wearing a mask and full PPE for the weekend around their now at risk child after their disgraceful singing session in school. Oh and don’t forget to tweet & contact some media outlets to drum up fear and hysteria. I’m sure it won’t affect their child the way they’re behaving.

Great you follow this thread for a week, maybe try harder and dig deeper. I don't post too much here, I'm not a teacher, I'm a parent and I'm well able to read and follow posts here for a long time. Far away from close the schools, hysteria etc. It's more about keep the schools open as long as possible with some sensible measures for kids and teachers.

jimmytwotimes 2013

JP100 wrote: »

I'm sorry but under the current climate that is pure madness.

We can't even convince management that all the windows and doors need to be open. Surprising what's going on in different places

niamh247

CruelSummer wrote: »

As I predicted, post after post criticising my suggestions but offering none in return.

As one poster mentioned, when you chose to ignore tons of suggestions made, it's not surprising that you find "offering none in return"

niamh247

xhomelezz wrote: »

Far away from close the schools, hysteria etc. It's more about keep the schools open as long as possible with some sensible measures for kids and teachers.

So, how do we define "as long as possible"? Until the asymptomatic transmission is fully proved beyond doubt and school cases reach some limit?

Here are the sensible measures that you wanted - HSE rules say that students in the same class room are not considered close contacts, while it is the opposite if that was a birthday party. And after your get infected, all that HSE can do is to ask you to install an app so that people around you can get alerts. The guidelines don't allow school to inform all parents about any school break-outs.

So, where is hysteria here? in being alert about all this or in putting our heads in the sand and hoping that someone is taking all care?

xhomelezz

niamh247 wrote: »

So, how do we define "as long as possible"? Until the asymptomatic transmission is fully proved beyond doubt and school cases reach some limit?

This is similar to HSE faulty rules saying that students in the same class room are not considered close contacts, while it is the opposite if that was a birthday party. And after your get infected, all that HSE can do is to ask you to install an app so that people around you can get alerts. The guidelines don't allow school to inform all parents about any school break-outs.

So, where is hysteria here? in being alert about all this or in putting our heads in the sand and hoping that someone is taking all care?

I've made a mistake in that post. As long as possible in current circumstances is wrong imo, so yeah call me on that. Schools should be open only for kids of frontline workers and kids from risk environment at the moment. That's the way I see it. HSE is out of comments for me, cuz it's major clusterfcuk, testing contact tracing is out of control now. So I have no faith in figures in schools. Just my opinion.

frank8211

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

so your recommendations for safer schools is to do nothing basically? Things are all really bad at the moment, we should be making use of blended/hybrid learning at post primary, and we should have been doing it from reopening.

The following changes have been implemented in Slovakia from last week..... food for thought..Secondary schools will switch to distance teaching as of Monday, October 12, until further notice. Kindergartens and primary schools will continue to meet in person as usual. At eight-year grammar schools, in-person teaching continues for grades one through four.
All pupils at primary schools (including first-fourth grade) will be required to wear masks during classes. The only exception will be given to deaf pupils and pupils with autism or special needs.
Masks will not be required in kindergartens, but children are recommended to wear them. CAlso, children younger than three years of age will not be required to wear masks.
All school activities, like school trips and ski courses, as well as various extracurricular activities, will be cancelled.
Čítajte viac: https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22507697/masks-outdoors-no-mass-events-special-hours-for-seniors-slovakia-reintroduces-strict-measures.html..

niamh247

frank8211 wrote: »

The following changes have been implemented in Slovakia from last week..... food for thought..Secondary schools will switch to distance teaching as of Monday, October 12, until further notice. Kindergartens and primary schools will continue to meet in person as usual. At eight-year grammar schools, in-person teaching continues for grades one through four.
All pupils at primary schools (including first-fourth grade) will be required to wear masks during classes. The only exception will be given to deaf pupils and pupils with autism or special needs.
Masks will not be required in kindergartens, but children are recommended to wear them. CAlso, children younger than three years of age will not be required to wear masks.
All school activities, like school trips and ski courses, as well as various extracurricular activities, will be cancelled.
Čítajte viac: https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22507697/masks-outdoors-no-mass-events-special-hours-for-seniors-slovakia-reintroduces-strict-measures.html..

Some sense there. Nice!

LilyShame

If the schools close no work will be done by working parents of 5 to 11 yos between 9 to 2.30every day. So if that's OK by all business and services in Ireland then so be it. Most employers s will not accept no productivity for 6 hours of every day.

Agree that kids may not be ill themselves. Yet still pass it on. That's where the choice to limit social contact comes in, excluding immediate family, which is unfortunately where some may have to keep their children at home.

downthemiddle

LilyShame wrote: »

If the schools close no work will be done by working parents of 5 to 11 yos between 9 to 2.30every day. So if that's OK by all business and services in Ireland then so be it. Most employees will not accept no productivity for 6 hours of every day.

Agree that kids may not be ill themselves. Yet still pass it on. That's where the choice to limit social contact comes in, excluding immediate family, which is unfortunately where some may have to keep their children at home.

Are you saying that working parents only work between 9 and 2.30? What happens before 9 and after 2.30 normally?

2ndcoming

LilyShame wrote: »

If the schools close no work will be done by working parents of 5 to 11 yos between 9 to 2.30every day. So if that's OK by all business and services in Ireland then so be it. Most employers s will not accept no productivity for 6 hours of every day.

Agree that kids may not be ill themselves. Yet still pass it on. That's where the choice to limit social contact comes in, excluding immediate family, which is unfortunately where some may have to keep their children at home.

This is a ridiculous notion. Unless you have a flock of them you will be able to work just fine, we all did it from March til June anyway. Or else you get up earlier or log in later to manage it. Your idea of productivity sounds a lot like old-fashioned clock watching, which has been shown up as useless just like lots of other old fashioned notions over the past few months.

ShineOn7

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1317563437434753028


It's definitely not in the schools

It's grand

Nope, it's absolutely definitely not the schools

Honest







****

Icyseanfitz

Its basically turning into a giant **** you to teachers snas and other school staff

blanch152

This is a very important statement and shows that the government is still taking a holistic approach to the coronavirus issue:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1017/1172124-government-meeting-level-5/

The Government also said that ministers were told today that "children were safer in schools, transmission rates are low, and that the continued opening of schools is very important to the development and wellbeing of children and young people".

All of the evidence from the WHO to the ECDC says that schools are safe environments

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/children-and-school-settings-covid-19-transmission

"Investigations of cases identified in school settings suggest that child to child transmission in schools is uncommon and not the primary cause of SARS-CoV-2 infection in children whose onset of infection coincides with the period during which they are attending school, particularly in preschools and primary schools."

This statement is key and should address some of the unfounded hysteria around the issue. Children have been picking up the virus at communion and confirmation parties, at play-dates, from their parents, and from visitors to their homes, but rarely, very rarely at school. In fact, children are safer at school as a result of the reckless behaviour of the adults around them at home.

WoollyRedHat

I'm fairness it also says the following in key points:

'Children are more likely to have a mild or asymptomatic infection, meaning that the infection may go undetected or undiagnosed.'

'When symptomatic, children shed virus in similar quantities to adults and can infect others in a similar way to adults. It is unknown how infectious asymptomatic children are.

'While very few significant outbreaks of COVID-19 in schools have been documented, they do occur, and may be difficult to detect due to the relative lack of symptoms in children.'

'In general, the majority of countries report slightly lower seroprevalence in children than in adult groups, however these differences are small and uncertain. More specialised studies need to be performed with the focus on children to better understand infection and antibody dynamics.'

No doubt communion and birthday parties didn't help with increase in cases though.

Icyseanfitz

How can they possibly tell where the child has gotten it or passed it on when the majority of them are asymptomatic with a virus that has a 14 day incubation period? Particularly now that we know the contact tracing isnt happening correctly in schools as well as beginning to fall apart in general.

2ndcoming

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

How can they possibly tell where the child has gotten it or passed it on when the majority of them are asymptomatic with a virus that has a 14 day incubation period? Particularly now that we know the contact tracing isnt happening correctly in schools as well as beginning to fall apart in general.

I don't think it does have a 14 day incubation period. I think that goes back to the early days when they didn't know some people were asymptomatic. Think most people start showing symptoms within a few days.

Icyseanfitz

The incubation period of COVID-19, which is the time between exposure to the virus and symptom onset, is on average 5-6 days, but can be as long as 14 days. - who

First result on google, could be wrong but thats what the WHO are saying.

blanch152

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

How can they possibly tell where the child has gotten it or passed it on when the majority of them are asymptomatic with a virus that has a 14 day incubation period? Particularly now that we know the contact tracing isnt happening correctly in schools as well as beginning to fall apart in general.

The point being made is that other kids and teachers are not showing up in huge numbers as having caught it in school. That is based on studies worldwide.

The current fearmongering by the teacher unions isn't helpful.

mvl

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

I'm fairness it also says the following in key points:

'Children are more likely to have a mild or asymptomatic infection, meaning that the infection may go undetected or undiagnosed.'

'When symptomatic, children shed virus in similar quantities to adults and can infect others in a similar way to adults. It is unknown how infectious asymptomatic children are.

'While very few significant outbreaks of COVID-19 in schools have been documented, they do occur, and may be difficult to detect due to the relative lack of symptoms in children.'

'In general, the majority of countries report slightly lower seroprevalence in children than in adult groups, however these differences are small and uncertain. More specialised studies need to be performed with the focus on children to better understand infection and antibody dynamics.'

No doubt communion and birthday parties didn't help with increase in cases though.

Sorry, but are you still talking about ECDC technical report that was published on 6th August ? what could have they documented good enough to predict what is going on in Ireland today (with the hush hush policy), when the Irish reference quoted is dated from May.
Heavey L, Casey G, Kelly C, Kelly D, McDarby G. No evidence of secondary transmission of COVID-19 from children attending school in Ireland, 2020. Euro Surveillance: bulletin Europeen sur les maladies transmissibles = European communicable disease bulletin. 2020 May;25(21)

So from the original recommendations published in august I'd stick to "Decisions on control measures in schools and school closures/openings should be consistent with decisions on other physical distancing and public health response measures within the community.", as school is part of the community.

Icyseanfitz

blanch152 wrote: »

The point being made is that other kids and teachers are not showing up in huge numbers as having caught it in school. That is based on studies worldwide.

The current fearmongering by the teacher unions isn't helpful.

Thought both of the biggest studies done to date in Korea and India state the opposite?

I mean the age groups of 4-24 have certainly seen a huge increase in cases since the end of August, my point is how can we in utter certainty say where the transmission originated, seems like an easy cop out to say private home or community transmission

beggars_bush

blanch152 wrote: »

The point being made is that other kids and teachers are not showing up in huge numbers as having caught it in school. That is based on studies worldwide.

The current fearmongering by the teacher unions isn't helpful.

How can they tell where they got the virus though?

WoollyRedHat

mvl wrote: »

Sorry, but are you still talking about the article that was published on 6th August ? what could have they documented good enough to predict what is going on in Ireland today (with the hush hush policy), when the Irish reference quoted is dated from May.
Heavey L, Casey G, Kelly C, Kelly D, McDarby G. No evidence of secondary transmission of COVID-19 from children attending school in Ireland, 2020. Euro Surveillance: bulletin Europeen sur les maladies transmissibles = European communicable disease bulletin. 2020 May;25(21)

So from the original recommendations published in august I'd stick to "Decisions on control measures in schools and school closures/openings should be consistent with decisions on other physical distancing and public health response measures within the community.", as school is part of the community.

It's not an article, it's a report from ECDC and I'm not the one who originally referenced it, was only replying to poster who did. Yes I agree with your sentiment. It's now in uncontrolled spread, so schools should follow community restrictions.