Schools closed until February? (part 3)

xhomelezz

Plus there's example for one nursery in Poland in relation to infections

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/1/20-3849_article

the corpo

Forgive me if this has been covered already, but finding it very hard to find anything in the official guidelines or in any posts here

My son tells me this morning they're singing together at full pelt in the classroom, which strikes me as a big no-no.

Before I go in calmly concerned to the school, does anyone know what the official advice is?

Loafing Oaf

irishblessing wrote: »

Can anyone repost the links to the 2 largest studies that were done on research to Coronavirus spread in the schools? I can't remember when they were posted (probably in the other thread) and not having any luck on google.

Possibly the ones mentioned in this article
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-what-if-children-are-a-key-source-of-covid-spread-1.4375795

xhomelezz

Nice one. To be honest, I would go probably mad doesn't matter what guidelines say.

khalessi

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Possibly the ones mentioned in this article
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-what-if-children-are-a-key-source-of-covid-spread-1.4375795

Here are the two studies Breda O' Brien mentioned in her IT article that the HSe seem to be selectively ignoring by reading only European research.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/b...read-1.4375795


https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...cience.abd7672 Indian Study

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...=1602702194103 article on Indian study

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article South Korean Study

NY Times article on SK study
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/h...il&login=email
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Zebra3

the corpo wrote: »

Forgive me if this has been covered already, but finding it very hard to find anything in the official guidelines or in any posts here

My son tells me this morning they're singing together at full pelt in the classroom, which strikes me as a big no-no.

Before I go in guns blazing to the school, does anyone know what the official advice is?

Guns blazing? School?

Oh dear.

the corpo

Aye, but we get on really well with the teacher/principal, so I'd imagine this is just misguided. Would love to just gently point out the guidance, but I can't find it. Knowing the Department there isn't any yet, it'll be added once the pandemic is over...

the corpo

Zebra3 wrote: »

Guns blazing? School?

Oh dear.

Ooops, will be editing that!

Teacher2020

"Choir practices/performances and music practices/performances involving wind instruments may pose a higher level of risk and special consideration should be given to how they are held ensuring that the room is well-ventilated and the distance between performers is maintained."
That's from gov.ie. Singing is allowed in our school as long as the windows are open.

the corpo

Teacher2020 wrote: »

"Choir practices/performances and music practices/performances involving wind instruments may pose a higher level of risk and special consideration should be given to how they are held ensuring that the room is well-ventilated and the distance between performers is maintained."
That's from gov.ie. Singing is allowed in our school as long as the windows are open.

Right, thanks. So again, the Dept is behind the evidence elsewhere, sigh.

Teacher2020

the corpo wrote: »

Right, thanks. So again, the Dept is behind the evidence elsewhere, sigh.

The evidence seems mixed. Some recent studies saying that singing is ok in a well ventilated area with distancing like our government is recommending. Recent evidence also shows that singing isn't much more dangerous than talking when done at the same level. Northern ireland have allowed the lower classes in primary school to sing again as singing has such a huge benefit to children at that age. What level is your son at?

the corpo

I haven't seen anything but science advising against it, would love to. All the evidence I've seen is that it's highly risky. The guidelines highlighting distance means they're still thinking in terms of droplets, not aerosol transmission.

He's in third class, and they're all ginormous!

irishblessing

Yes those are it, thanks so much loafing oaf and khalessi! xhomelezz appreciate those articles too, great to have those from the research source.

Here's an article I read this morning from the top news section of rte.ie. It talks quite a bit about the schools:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1016/1172039-fergal-bowers-analysis/

"Many health experts say the school cases are low, with a positivity rate of 1.9% compared with 6% in the community. In truth, schools are the community, too. So to designate them as something else is a bit disingenuous.

Schools were also reopened for the mental and physical well-being of children and also their parents. Let’s be honest about that. Some cases in schools will also invariably spread to the home.

The main difference between earlier in the year and now is that schools were shut then but have reopened now for some weeks. Their reopening must have contributed in some way to the figures today.

It would be valuable to see more detail on the number of cases in schools, the outbreaks and onward transmission to homes. At the moment, all we have is the official number of school outbreaks at 73 and the number of outbreaks in private houses at 3,532.

Outbreaks are different to cases and so it would be useful to know how many cases arose from each outbreak by location. Even under Level 5 restrictions, there is no recommendation for schools to close.

That could be hard to sustain, given the nature of Level 5 measures and concerns some teachers may have. Indeed yesterday, the HSE’s chief clinical officer, Dr Colm Henry warned that it would be difficult to keep schools open with the rate the virus is spreading. "

Teacher2020

We can only go on what we have been given by the government. I wouldnt be going into the school though because they arent actually breaking any guidelines. Schools are trying hard to implement the guidelines that they have been given. It doesn't help when parents come at us "guns blazing" because they think they know better! Although it does give me a good laugh afterwards when parents come in irate and unreasonable, it doesn't actually achieve anything for the parent as most teachers will completely dismiss any concerns that are delivered in such a manner.

JimmyVik

irishblessing wrote: »

Yes those are it, thanks so much loafing oaf and khalessi! xhomelezz appreciate those articles too, great to have those from the research source.

Here's an article I read this morning from the top news section of rte.ie. It talks quite a bit about the schools:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1016/1172039-fergal-bowers-analysis/

"Many health experts say the school cases are low, with a positivity rate of 1.9% compared with 6% in the community. In truth, schools are the community, too. So to designate them as something else is a bit disingenuous.

Schools were also reopened for the mental and physical well-being of children and also their parents. Let’s be honest about that. Some cases in schools will also invariably spread to the home.

The main difference between earlier in the year and now is that schools were shut then but have reopened now for some weeks. Their reopening must have contributed in some way to the figures today.

It would be valuable to see more detail on the number of cases in schools, the outbreaks and onward transmission to homes. At the moment, all we have is the official number of school outbreaks at 73 and the number of outbreaks in private houses at 3,532.

Outbreaks are different to cases and so it would be useful to know how many cases arose from each outbreak by location. Even under Level 5 restrictions, there is no recommendation for schools to close.

That could be hard to sustain, given the nature of Level 5 measures and concerns some teachers may have. Indeed yesterday, the HSE’s chief clinical officer, Dr Colm Henry warned that it would be difficult to keep schools open with the rate the virus is spreading. "

It would be easier to just state the facts and numbers about schools than what they are doing, which is just pretending schools just dont exist and having meaningless age ranges for numbers.
All that effort going into hiding stats is not for nothing.

khalessi

irishblessing wrote: »

Yes those are it, thanks so much loafing oaf and khalessi! xhomelezz appreciate those articles too, great to have those from the research source.

Here's an article I read this morning from the top news section of rte.ie. It talks quite a bit about the schools:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1016/1172039-fergal-bowers-analysis/

The main difference between earlier in the year and now is that schools were shut then but have reopened now for some weeks. Their reopening must have contributed in some way to the figures today.

Saw this and thought it was interesting in relation to school reopening

https://twitter.com/diagionals/status/1317171713780711426

Beasty

Threads merged

jimmytwotimes 2013

irishblessing wrote: »

Dr. Fauci, the US's top expert on infectious diseases, disagrees with you. He wins.

Thanks for the detailed response

irishblessing

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed response

Well I did already post the link here, but here it is again for your perusal He doesn't believe schools could stay open at the highest level of restrictions.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/were-in-for-a-difficult-winter-but-dont-give-up-hope-says-dr-anthony-fauci-39608868.html

irishblessing

Teacher2020 wrote: »

The evidence seems mixed. Some recent studies saying that singing is ok in a well ventilated area with distancing like our government is recommending. Recent evidence also shows that singing isn't much more dangerous than talking when done at the same level. Northern ireland have allowed the lower classes in primary school to sing again as singing has such a huge benefit to children at that age. What level is your son at?

Then why were the bands banned from the pubs? I thought it was the danger from them singing and people singing/talking loudly with and over them.

JP100

Teacher2020 wrote: »

Singing is allowed in our school as long as the windows are open.

Nobody should be singing indoors. If they want to sing, let them go outside.

Loafing Oaf

JP100 wrote: »

Nobody should be singing indoors. If they want to sing, let them go outside.

Maria not such a problem in plague times...

wirelessdude01

irishblessing wrote: »

Then why were the bands banned from the pubs? I thought it was the danger from them singing and people singing/talking loudly with and over them.

Maybe, just maybe alcohol might also be a factor.

JP100

the corpo wrote: »

My son tells me this morning they're singing together at full pelt in the classroom, which strikes me as a big no-no.

I'm sorry but under the current climate that is pure madness.

CruelSummer

khalessi wrote: »

Here are the two studies Breda O' Brien mentioned in her IT article that the HSe seem to be selectively ignoring by reading only European research.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/b...read-1.4375795


https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...cience.abd7672 Indian Study

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...=1602702194103 article on Indian study

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-1315_article South Korean Study

NY Times article on SK study
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/18/h...il&login=email
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What do you suggest? I’m interested to hear your suggestions as you seem all ideas on how to get the schools closed.

irishblessing

CruelSummer wrote: »

What do you suggest? I’m interested to hear your suggestions as you seem all ideas on how to get the schools closed.

You first, or maybe have a read back just a handful of pages. It's been done to death. NO ONE IS TRYING TO GET THE SCHOOLS CLOSED. If you had a read of the thread even a little bit instead of trying to get a rise out of people that would be super.

CruelSummer

irishblessing wrote: »

You first, or maybe have a read back just a handful of pages. It's been done to death. NO ONE IS TRYING TO GET THE SCHOOLS CLOSED. If you had a read of the thread even a little bit instead of trying to get a rise out of people that would be super.

I've made many suggestions previously. But I haven't seen any suggestions from the people calling for the schools to close, or indeed didn't seem to want them to reopen at all in September. Here are a few of the main points I've made:
1. Keep primary level open as they transmit the virus less. Online teaching and learning for this agegroup was a failure and will not work.
2. Keep Secondary open as students will lose their minds stuck at home separated from their peers. Expect to see large gatherings congregating and drinking as a result.
3. Educational outcomes in all models show if children miss education as they have done for a long period of time, their prospects into adulthood diminish hugely. Not to mention the mental and emotional damage this may also cause.
4. Many parents will lose their jobs if schools close
5. If hospitals or ICU are becoming overwhelmed then switch to the blended learning model, keeping students connected with their teachers and schools - and on track educationally.

Now where are your suggestions, or will you just spend the next few posts criticising mine while suggesting nothing?

mirrorwall14

The guidelines and suggestions for primary school return to school included singing as far as I remember. There was a lot of confusion about it. Technically it’s not forbidden as far as I know

irishblessing

CruelSummer wrote: »

I've made many suggestions previously. But I haven't seen any suggestions from the people calling for the schools to close, or indeed didn't seem to want them to reopen at all in September. Here are a few of the main points I've made:
1. Keep primary level open as they transmit the virus less. Online teaching and learning for this agegroup was a failure and will not work.
2. Keep Secondary open as students will lose their minds stuck at home separated from their peers. Expect to see large gatherings congregating and drinking as a result.
3. Educational outcomes in all models show if children miss education as they have done for a long period of time, their prospects into adulthood diminish hugely. Not to mention the mental and emotional damage this may also cause.
4. Many parents will lose their jobs if schools close
5. If hospitals or ICU are becoming overwhelmed then switch to the blended learning model, keeping students connected with their teachers and schools - and on track educationally.

Now where are your suggestions, or will you just spend the next few posts criticising mine while suggesting nothing?

I haven't got the energy or fécks to respond to you. Every single one of those points have been done to death here already. My suggestions are all over this thread and the previous one. If you cared to read anything here you would know that. Happy reading.

niamh247

CruelSummer wrote: »

I've made many suggestions previously. But I haven't seen any suggestions from the people calling for the schools to close, or indeed didn't seem to want them to reopen at all in September. Here are a few of the main points I've made:
1. Keep primary level open as they transmit the virus less. Online teaching and learning for this agegroup was a failure and will not work.
2. Keep Secondary open as students will lose their minds stuck at home separated from their peers. Expect to see large gatherings congregating and drinking as a result.
3. Educational outcomes in all models show if children miss education as they have done for a long period of time, their prospects into adulthood diminish hugely. Not to mention the mental and emotional damage this may also cause.
4. Many parents will lose their jobs if schools close
5. If hospitals or ICU are becoming overwhelmed then switch to the blended learning model, keeping students connected with their teachers and schools - and on track educationally.

Now where are your suggestions, or will you just spend the next few posts criticising mine while suggesting nothing?

Suggestions? Fully switch to online learning like all other sensible countries do.

Your reasons are incoherent and unrelated to education or learning and invented to support the main reason of enabling parents to work.

Schools are NOT primarily meant to be some child minding centers , though we use them that way due to pathetic situation where having children at home is considered horrible.

If we can't afford or tolerate children being with family at home, that's pathetic.

Keeping teenagers disconnected with family is causing the gang culture. They need to be able interact with all age groups not just with same age groups.