Schools closed until February? (part 3)

wirelessdude01

LittleBrick wrote: »

Lillyfae, I remember you being very vocal against teachers and closures back in March and April too, so no surprise you are contesting them at these points as well.

We are not asking for indefinite school closures. We are asking for the government to actually look after the health and safety of the educators and children in schools. We want proper and sufficient contact tracing and testing in school. We want a "close contact" to be the same in schools as it is in all other parts of society. We want to be treated with the decency and understanding that all other workers and workplaces are being treated with in regards social distancing.

But, but, but schools closures, lazy teachers, blah, blah, blah. Everyone is an expert because they sat in a school.

I'm off for non covid reasons at the moment and would like to work but can't as there is no mechanism through which I can. Ridiculous.

SusanC10

LittleBrick wrote: »

Lillyfae, I remember you being very vocal against teachers and closures back in March and April too, so no surprise you are contesting them at these points as well.

We are not asking for indefinite school closures. We are asking for the government to actually look after the health and safety of the educators and children in schools. We want proper and sufficient contact tracing and testing in school. We want a "close contact" to be the same in schools as it is in all other parts of society. We want to be treated with the decency and understanding that all other workers and workplaces are being treated with in regards social distancing.

And rightly so imo.

irishblessing

Lillyfae wrote: »

That's true, Germany is a big country divided by provinces so there's definitely variation.

I just don't know what teachers here expect though. Closures and reopenings are happening everywhere to try and stop the spread where possible, but to achieve the total closure of schools would be more damaging to children, mental health and the economy than the virus. To eliminate any risk would require totally closing schools. Indefinitely.

This year and possibly subsequent years are going to be difficult for everyone. There are going to be disruptions and it's absolutely stressful, I appreciate that a lot is being asked of you. But the constant pearl clutching and emotional blackmail is unbelievable. The insults being thrown at working parents, the "parents are the primary educators under the constitution" comments. What do you think happens if schools close again? Working mothers become the "primary educators". These Facebook and Twitter pages are achieving nothing more than a deterrent for subs to provide cover, so that's a great own goal for them.

Remote learning might work for Secondary level. But it won't work for primary, and we know already that engagement from all sides wasn't sufficient. It might be ok for a teacher to pick up the child's learning from wherever it was left in who knows how many months/years, but that's not ok for the child's development, especially considering their peers in other countries are carrying on undeterred. The world is becoming ever more connected considering the adaptations that have been made in order to overcome the stay-at-home orders. Irish children will be left behind.

Are you having a go at me and accusing me of emotional blackmail and clutching the pearls? Wtf? I know we're all stressed out but could you tone down the drama just a wee bit.

I think you've been on this thread for a while now. Long enough to know there would be very, very few posters coming here to advocate for total closing of the schools. In fact I can't even really think of any tbh. Most of us are critical of the lack of choice and safety measures in order to KEEP schools open and safer.

It's very tiresome and disingenuous of you to equate the early closing of the schools with the real possibility of success in remote learning if done properly now. We've all already discussed this here at length. The earlier closures were very sudden and people's lives were turned upside down from one day to the next. That isn't the case now. We know what's what. Other countries spent the spring, summer and early autumn planning, preparing and executing a hybrid remote learning plan and better safety measures. That clearly didn't happen here and just a couple weeks ago if that the DES suddenly sent out a directive to schools to figure out remote learning. Wow.

So schools are now implementing remote learning plans and training their teachers and students and giving the info to parents. It's not ideal but its a vast improvement on what happened earlier this year when nothing was in place so your false equivalency about it not working in primary because of what happened in April is a non-starter.

As for their "peers in other countries carrying on undeterred," this is also disingenuous of you as it has already been discussed here and links posted about all the other countries in the EU/world who have moved/are moving to some system of remote learning to have as a tool. Irish children will not be left behind, if we properly plan a hybrid remote learning system. What was that about clutching pearls again? :rolleyes:

Lillyfae

irishblessing wrote: »

Are you having a go at me and accusing me of emotional blackmail and clutching the pearls? Wtf? I know we're all stressed out but could you tone down the drama just a wee bit.

I think you've been on this thread for a while now. Long enough to know there would be very, very few posters coming here to advocate for total closing of the schools. In fact I can't even really think of any tbh. Most of us are critical of the lack of choice and safety measures in order to KEEP schools open and safer.

It's very tiresome and disingenuous of you to equate the early closing of the schools with the real possibility of success in remote learning if done properly now. We've all already discussed this here at length. The earlier closures were very sudden and people's lives were turned upside down from one day to the next. That isn't the case now. We know what's what. Other countries spent the spring, summer and early autumn planning, preparing and executing a hybrid remote learning plan and better safety measures. That clearly didn't happen here and just a couple weeks ago if that the DES suddenly sent out a directive to schools to figure out remote learning. Wow.

So schools are now implementing remote learning plans and training their teachers and students and giving the info to parents. It's not ideal but its a vast improvement on what happened earlier this year when nothing was in place so your false equivalency about it not working in primary because of what happened in April is a non-starter.

As for their "peers in other countries carrying on undeterred," this is also disingenuous of you as it has already been discussed here and links posted about all the other countries in the EU/world who have moved/are moving to some system of remote learning to have as a tool. Irish children will not be left behind, if we properly plan a hybrid remote learning system. What was that about clutching pearls again? :rolleyes:

Irishblessing I wasn't getting at you at all. I was responding to your post, and then carrying on my tirade. Apologies if it came across that way. I very much appreciate your willingness to other views here actually, despite the fact that we often disagree. We can all learn something from each other.

I was all for the schools closing at the beginning, and I very much believe the Department of Education have let down everyone in the meantime. But while it is too little too late, they have provided both guidance and funding now. There isn't infinite funding for this stuff, so there are still going to be shortcomings along the way.

Schools to some extent have to act independently. They're going to have to work to put in place whatever they need in the event that school closes due to inadequate staffing because of Covid testing/infection, or if classes are off for same. It is inevitable, because no 2 schools are the same. And it is catered for, in that they have a person in charge in each school- the principal. Obviously some principals are well equipped to deal with the situation, and some have both hard and soft skills lacking. If a principal says a teacher is not allowed to wear a mask, they should be told where to go. But this Facebook and Twitter b*llix is helping absolutely no-one. By all means report back to the HSE if there are discrepancies in how contact tracing is taking place, but I doubt very much if the teachers on here are qualified Epidemiologists as well as teachers, despite their apparent expertise.

There is a much bigger picture than just schools, but schools affect many parts of our society. At the moment they are the front line. Teachers here seem to have difficulty in contextualizing their role. As an aside, the snide comments and clichés from the teachers here drag the thread off topic constantly. Any suggestion that they don't like is ridiculed for pages and pages until the conversation just gets silly. Unless one of them comes up with the suggestion (the great Marquee saga, anyone) and then it's the best idea that ever happened.

hello2020

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Nope not happening in most/all schools.

If they can find a loophole at all they are. Loads of stories now coming out from teacher friends of those classes/pods/staff not considered close contacts and who subsequently get a test referral through a GP as the GP considers them a close contact. I know of teachers who weren't considered a cose contzct after a few case in their class who then tested positive after the GP referral .

See if they aren't found via a test organised/recommended by the public health team then they aren't considered a school case.

We are beginning to hear stories of teachers in a certain secondary sector being told that they are expected back to school between having their test and receiving their results

My kids school had two cases so far but classes are running like normal as they think that particular child didn't come to school for some time/he was not direct contact etc..

Icyseanfitz

See articles now saying nphet are reccomending a 6 week level 5.....with schools open, wtf are the unions doing.

Loafing Oaf

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

See articles now saying nphet are reccomending a 6 week level 5.....with schools open, wtf are the unions doing.

For 6 weeks read "Until Christmas/as long as it takes"...

wirelessdude01

Colm Henry on Claire Byrne this morning said that keeping schools open at the current level will practically be impossible. Health and schools will have to curtail the services they provide is more or less how he phrased it.

Icyseanfitz

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Colm Henry on Claire Byrne this morning said that keeping schools open at the current level will practically be impossible. Health and schools will have to curtail the services they provide is more or less how he phrased it.

I just don't believe it, they won't admit they did wrong with the reopening.

Newbie20

Lillyfae wrote: »

That's true, Germany is a big country divided by provinces so there's definitely variation.

I just don't know what teachers here expect though. Closures and reopenings are happening everywhere to try and stop the spread where possible, but to achieve the total closure of schools would be more damaging to children, mental health and the economy than the virus. To eliminate any risk would require totally closing schools. Indefinitely.

This year and possibly subsequent years are going to be difficult for everyone. There are going to be disruptions and it's absolutely stressful, I appreciate that a lot is being asked of you. But the constant pearl clutching and emotional blackmail is unbelievable. The insults being thrown at working parents, the "parents are the primary educators under the constitution" comments. What do you think happens if schools close again? Working mothers become the "primary educators". These Facebook and Twitter pages are achieving nothing more than a deterrent for subs to provide cover, so that's a great own goal for them.

Remote learning might work for Secondary level. But it won't work for primary, and we know already that engagement from all sides wasn't sufficient. It might be ok for a teacher to pick up the child's learning from wherever it was left in who knows how many months/years, but that's not ok for the child's development, especially considering their peers in other countries are carrying on undeterred. The world is becoming ever more connected considering the adaptations that have been made in order to overcome the stay-at-home orders. Irish children will be left behind.

I wouldn’t like to speak on behalf of all teachers but personally all I want is that they stop lying and acknowledge that schools are not very safe, that there is a risk attached for teachers and students.

I’m happier to be in school teaching than to be doing online at home. I’m just sick of this line that school is the safest place you could be. They must think everyone in the country is thick stupid. Nurses and doctors wouldn’t be long getting annoyed if the government started peddling the line that hospitals were extremely safe places to work and that nurses were likely to bring in Covid from home rather than get it in hospital. Just stop the lies and acknowledge the risks that people are taking, that’s all.

Lillyfae

Newbie20 wrote: »

I wouldn’t like to speak on behalf of all teachers but personally all I want is that they stop lying and acknowledge that schools are not very safe, that there is a risk attached for teachers and students.

I’m happier to be in school teaching than to be doing online at home. I’m just sick of this line that school is the safest place you could be. They must think everyone in the country is thick stupid. Nurses and doctors wouldn’t be long getting annoyed if the government started peddling the line that hospitals were extremely safe places to work and that nurses were likely to bring in Covid from home rather than get it in hospital. Just stop the lies and acknowledge the risks that people are taking, that’s all.

But who is saying schools are the safest place you could be? It's true that nowhere is without risk and that there are infections occurring in schools but not at a critical rate and not more than or as much as other places. It's the level of risk that needs to be looked at, in the context of every other aspect of society.

lulublue22

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

Are some schools ploughing their own furrow?

My son's class had a positive case identified on Monday evening, all the kids were told to stay home and then the HSE let the school know that they are considering all kids, the teacher the special resource teacher and the SNA all to be close contacts. We had a test on Weds evening, as did the rest of the kids and adults, and the tests came back negative.

The kids are still not allowed back until next Friday (14 days after first contact with the pos case)

Is this not happening in all schools?

Absolutely not I know of a SI teacher who was not deemed a close contact nor where children in any other pod. SI with the best will in the world have no concept of SD. There seems to be very mixed response tbh.

JimmyVik

Lillyfae wrote: »

But who is saying schools are the safest place you could be? It's true that nowhere is without risk and that there are infections occurring in schools but not at a critical rate and not more than or as much as other places. It's the level of risk that needs to be looked at, in the context of every other aspect of society.

You are barrel scraping at this point.
]I do find your posts entertaining though

SusanC10

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

We had decided that if the Country (or our County) went to Level 5, that we would keep the Kids at home.

LittleBrick

SusanC10 wrote: »

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

We had decided that if the Country (or our County) went to Level 5, that we would keep the Kids at home.

If the unions allow this to go ahead this will be my last year teaching. I have no problem coming in for children of frontline workers or if they stagger class (week on/week off or half days), I have no problem coming in to steam online for children at home. If school remain open and operating as normal with the rest of the country at level 5, I will be leaving teaching at the end of the school year and will not return.

average_runner

Yeah still happy to send the kids in. There is no issue with schools when looking at the percentage of cases etc

wirelessdude01

SusanC10 wrote: »

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

We had decided that if the Country (or our County) went to Level 5, that we would keep the Kids at home.

Will be interesting to see how this is approached. I think you'll probably see the unions advocating for a blended/hybrid approach as a minimum.

Also I would imagine you'll see a significant minority of children being pulled from school anyway.

When we had cases in our school. What we saw was that families with kids being tested as close contacts generally didn't send siblings to school either as a precaution (greatly appreciated by the school community at large).

irishblessing

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

See articles now saying nphet are reccomending a 6 week level 5.....with schools open, wtf are the unions doing.

Dr. Fauci in the states made direct comments regarding Ireland on that matter, saying in his opinion keeping the schools open at that level would not be possible.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/were-in-for-a-difficult-winter-but-dont-give-up-hope-says-dr-anthony-fauci-39608868.html

irishblessing

SusanC10 wrote: »

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

We had decided that if the Country (or our County) went to Level 5, that we would keep the Kids at home.

No, we will not keep our children in school at level 5. If cases get much higher in our area in fact we will pull before then if it comes to it.

eviltwin

SusanC10 wrote: »

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

We had decided that if the Country (or our County) went to Level 5, that we would keep the Kids at home.

I won't be sending mine in. If the risk is too high for everyone its too high for our kids and teachers.

Teacher2020

SusanC10 wrote: »

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

It doesn't matter if teachers are willing or not. We don't have a choice. I don't really mind being in even in Level 5 as long as the public are following the recommended restrictions at the time. I won't be providing online teaching while I am also classroom teaching though. It just wouldn't be possible. Have no issue with webcams being used for people to tune in - don't know if our school internet would be capable of running one for every class however.

Bot1

SusanC10 wrote: »

If the Government do follow NPHETs advice and move the entire Country to Level 5 for 6 weeks with Schools to remain open, are Teachers willing to stay teaching and are Parents willing to send their Kids in ?

We had decided that if the Country (or our County) went to Level 5, that we would keep the Kids at home.

It's about risk and importance.

Somethings are so important that they must remain open.

Schools are one of these things.

Teachers are frontline workers in these times and a bloody great job they are doing too!

wirelessdude01

Bot1 wrote: »

Teachers are frontline workers in these times and a bloody great job they are doing too!

Are we though?

When it comes to the likes of the flu vaccine we aren't considered to be.

LittleBrick

Bot1 wrote: »

It's about risk and importance.

Somethings are so important that they must remain open.

Schools are one of these things.

Teachers are frontline workers in these times and a bloody great job they are doing too!

Fine, we're frontline.
Give us proper PPE. Give us proper social distancing. Give us the same definition of a "close contact". Give us flu vaccines. Give us fast tracked testing. Give us weekly in school testing like in meat plants.
Stop giving us nothing and telling us we're frontline. Thanks, I'll just tell the virus I'm frontline and can't get sick.

niamh247

Bot1 wrote: »

It's about risk and importance.

Somethings are so important that they must remain open.

Schools are one of these things.

Teachers are frontline workers in these times and a bloody great job they are doing too!

I'm sorry - what is so sacrosanct and secret reason which makes schools so important when parents are forced to work from home? Are we still considering that schools are places of learning, or did they become hubs for a secret scheme towards herd-immunity?

thomasdylan

LittleBrick wrote: »

Fine, we're frontline.
Give us proper PPE. Give us proper social distancing. Give us the same definition of a "close contact". Give us flu vaccines. Give us fast tracked testing. Give us weekly in school testing like in meat plants.
Stop giving us nothing and telling us we're frontline. Thanks, I'll just tell the virus I'm frontline and can't get sick.

There's a huge shortage of flu vaccines. Hospital staff are struggling to get them as well. Only high risk people are getting them from their GPs now.

There's no fast tracked testing in most places. Most people should be able to get a test in 48 hours and a large proportion will be able to get one in 24 hours.

There's no weekly testing in meat plants anymore.

LittleBrick

thomasdylan wrote: »

There's a huge shortage of flu vaccines. Hospital staff are struggling to get them as well. Only high risk people are getting them from their GPs now.

There's no fast tracked testing in most places. Most people should be able to get a test in 48 hours and a large proportion will be able to get one in 24 hours.

There's no weekly testing in meat plants anymore.

You have made a lot of excuses, but offered no solutions. If we are frontline, and it is so vital for schools to remain open, then they need to, at the very least, have fast tracked testing for teachers. Also, you say "any more". Meaning there was, so it can be done. And it should be done.


The only reason there is no uproar is because of the begrudgery of teachers purported in the media over the last number of year. Any and all valid points mentioned by unions and teachers are ignored, and we are told to "get on with it" because, you know, our holidays.

average_runner

LittleBrick wrote: »

Fine, we're frontline.
Give us proper PPE. Give us proper social distancing. Give us the same definition of a "close contact". Give us flu vaccines. Give us fast tracked testing. Give us weekly in school testing like in meat plants.
Stop giving us nothing and telling us we're frontline. Thanks, I'll just tell the virus I'm frontline and can't get sick.

Plenty of frontline out there that don't have PPE. Shops assistants going around the shop for example. People doing building work in people houses dont have PPE but are frontline.

irishblessing

average_runner wrote: »

Plenty of frontline out there that don't have PPE. Shops assistants going around the shop for example. People doing building work in people houses dont have PPE but are frontline.

I have yet to see shop assistants going without PPE, as it's now required everywhere.

Tradesmen in other people's houses are not essential "frontline," are they? They are not working around covid positive sick people or small rooms packed with students nor dozens of employees on a building site.

Perhaps their expenses for masks and sanitiser could be tax write-off's anyway.

HerrKuehn

LittleBrick wrote: »

The only reason there is no uproar is because of the begrudgery of teachers purported in the media over the last number of year. Any and all valid points mentioned by unions and teachers are ignored, and we are told to "get on with it" because, you know, our holidays.

I think it is more like the boy who cried wolf. We are so used to the annual complain fest at easter, that maybe when we hear complaints its a case of here we go again.