Amazed by people buying new oil burners right now

liamog

paleoperson wrote: »

Noone is saying the money is different because it's on an electric bill rather than at the pump. We are saying that right now it's not worth the hassle for most people.

We turned a €200 a month petrol bill into a €20 a month electric bill. If we had to rapid charge for 1 hour every 6 weeks, roughly means 9 hours of my time has given me back €2,160. I get paid a lot less than €240 an hour, so yes it was well worth the hassle.

MadYaker

Black_Knight wrote: »

Yeah but their petrol bill was zero.

EV usage is pretty simple maths. Average house using 4000 kWh a year, is 77kWh a week. Not sure what car they used, but a Kona for example will use 64kWh to travel 400km (48kWh for 300km, say 50kWh for losses). So 50-60% increase sounds about right. On a 24 hour rate (certain they'd be on that) that's about 7-9 euro. 3-4 euro on a night rate.

What's 300km in petrol? €20 at 5ltr/100km @ 1.30 per litre?

In my eyes they're saving €16 a week, not "adding 50% to their electric bill". (I know they're doing both, but my mentality sees the benefits rather than just focusing on the electric bill)

Do you factor in the relative depreciation of each vehicle?

paleoperson

liamog wrote: »

We turned a €200 a month petrol bill into a €20 a month electric bill. If we had to rapid charge for 1 hour every 6 weeks, roughly means 9 hours of my time has given me back €2,160. I get paid a lot less than €240 an hour, so yes it was well worth the hassle.

Your numbers sound suspicious to me, but I don't have access to your bills. Here it does a run-down of the costs EV vs diesel and it comes to the conclusion that electric is slightly cheaper per mile generally:

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/650/cost-of-running-an-electric-car

For that fractional saving on costs - I actually thought it would be significantly more, especially when you consider the highly generous subsidies you're getting from the government (ie. the rest of us) to use this technology - it's hardly worth all the hassle for the vast majority of people.

It may be worth it for you and if so good luck to you, but not for most people. Also I'm not sure if you can claim the moral/environmental upper ground considering you're dipping into the government climate change funding so much.

RandomViewer

Have 2 cars, 20 diesel and 13 petrol, Diesel is 30euro a fortnight as my wife uses it during the week and any running at the weekend, I use the petrol car for work and use about 20euro a month.No finance on either car and 290 and 390 tax , insurance for the two is approx 850euro altogether. Ev would be of no use to me whatsoever although I saw a hybrid 17 Ioniq that looked the part for sale today.

paleoperson

RandomViewer wrote: »

Have 2 cars, 20 diesel and 13 petrol, Diesel is 30euro a fortnight as my wife uses it during the week and any running at the weekend, I use the petrol car for work and use about 20euro a month.No finance on either car and 290 and 390 tax , insurance for the two is approx 850euro altogether. Ev would be of no use to me whatsoever although I saw a hybrid 17 Ioniq that looked the part for sale today.

Hybrid is surely the way to go in the long-term. I really don't understand the point of EV, seems pointless when you can simply keep all the benefits of gas by having a hybrid.

liamog

paleoperson wrote: »

Your numbers sound suspicious to me, but I don't have access to your bills. Here it does a run-down of the costs EV vs diesel and it comes to the conclusion that electric is slightly cheaper per mile generally:

A reasonable rule of thumb when comparing cars charged at night rate is 1c/6c/8c per km when comparing EV/Diesel/Petrol. Our electricity with Energia is 6.68c/kWh at night, the Ioniq has a rated efficency of 15.6kWh/100km meaning 100km costs us €1.04. Our Punto was fairly thirsty and was costing us around 10c/km.

Black_Knight

MadYaker wrote: »

Do you factor in the relative depreciation of each vehicle?

I have done so, but not in that calculation above. I calculated total expenditure (services, tolls, parts, fuel, depreciation, tax, insurance, nct) over the 7 years I owned my old Passat cc (3 year old when I bought it) and the depreciation, Vs total public charging costs and home charging costs and all other expenses for my current ioniq (2 years old when I bought it, have it 18+ months now). Electric works out about €70 cheaper a month so far. That €70 will only get greater as depreciation eases off year on year. Passat cc would have lost a big chunk of its depreciation before I bought it, whereas the ioniq was a bit young for me to benefit similarly.

I know 70 euro isn't much, but 1) I didn't incur any massive cost price as I bought second hand. I had a budget to change my car, I stuck to it and happened to buy an EV. 2) it's early days, and year 3 of a car is still a heavy depreciation year, so I expect to save more Vs my old cc the longer I have an EV 3) I do little mileage so I'm on the lower end of the savings scale.

liamog

paleoperson wrote: »

Hybrid is surely the way to go in the long-term. I really don't understand the point of EV, seems pointless when you can simply keep all the benefits of gas by having a hybrid.

You're missing the benefits of getting an EV, very cheap per km costs, and a car that you only have to spend 30s charging, instead of driving to a petrol station. You can gain a lot of the same benefits by purchasing a PHEV, if you can work within their limited range they can suit a lot of people, and give you the benefits of an EV.

Black_Knight

paleoperson wrote: »

Hybrid is surely the way to go in the long-term. I really don't understand the point of EV, seems pointless when you can simply keep all the benefits of gas by having a hybrid.

Hybrid is a stepping stone, and quickly becoming an outdated one at that. Pretty much all on this forum agree they're rarely the right option.
Lots of motorway driving? Get a diesel.
Town driving? Get a small electric
Mixed? Get electric.

Mixed but can't afford electric, ok, hybrid.

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Mixed but can't afford electric, ok, hybrid.

Isn't that where we recommend a PHEV instead, I'm basically at the point of telling people to ignore hybrids, it's just not a factor in the decision making.

garo

Edit: Deleted. No point throwing fuel on the fire.

elperello

garo wrote: »

I have to say I despair at the level of ignorance on display in this thread.

From who?

I'm finding it very useful.

paleoperson

liamog wrote: »

Isn't that where we recommend a PHEV instead, I'm basically at the point of telling people to ignore hybrids, it's just not a factor in the decision making.

A PHEV is just a hybrid you can plug in.

Black_Knight

cnocbui wrote: »

You are not making a saving unless you are spending most of your waking hours behind the wheel.

All you are doing is paying a large sum of money upfront in order to pay less at the pump or meter. For anyone doing average annual mileage they won't even break even for 5 to 7 years. It's as daft as paying thousands for solar panels on your house and then claiming you are saving on your electricity bill, when you only break even and start to make a saving 10 years later.

I agree the upfront cost can be overpriced, though VW's id3 seems decently priced for the spec car it is. It's a premium model, but doesn't carry a premium price Vs a well spec'd golf. It's a start, but prices need to drop further.

I went second hand as I don't do much mileage. 15k km, yet it saves me 80+ euro a month going EV, and I spent what I'd of spent had I gone petrol or diesel.

As for solar etc... Break even comes at some point, and if it's worth it people should do it. Every year you don't do it is a year extra you're spending money needlessly. For any purchase, do the math, it's unbiased.

garo

elperello wrote: »

From who?

I'm finding it very useful.

I just read through page 2&3 and some of the statements about EV charging and Ireland's electric infrastructure are way off mark. Someone here thinks you would need to charge at 22kW all night and that would destroy the grid. Someone else thinks batteries will explode. Someone else thinks you will have to throw away the EV (or battery) after a few years due to range deterioration.



People have really unrealistic ideas about how much driving they need to do without being able to recharge. For the vast majority a 250km range car will be more than enough. There are exceptions of course so in that sense OP is wrong about nobody needing to buy an oil burner.


Also people have really unrealistic estimates of how much electricity costs. Especially on night rate.

Gumbo

RandomViewer wrote: »

Have 2 cars, 20 diesel and 13 petrol, Diesel is 30euro a fortnight as my wife uses it during the week and any running at the weekend, I use the petrol car for work and use about 20euro a month.No finance on either car and 290 and 390 tax , insurance for the two is approx 850euro altogether. Ev would be of no use to me whatsoever although I saw a hybrid 17 Ioniq that looked the part for sale today.

For someone like you that does less than 100km a week in the car, an EV would be perfect. My tax is €120 and insurance is €283.

Herself is the same. She uses less than €20 a week diesel but she won’t swap to electric yet she drives mine every day

I wouldn’t bother with the hybrid ioniq. I’d rather keep the petrol car you already have.

Black_Knight

paleoperson wrote: »

A PHEV is just a hybrid you can plug in.

Phevs (while I'm not really a fan) have differences to hybrids.
Traditional hybrids like the Prius have a small battery which can drive the car at low speeds/power, and it's charged when the brakes are used in the car. Ultimately it's powered by the engine (engine moves car, and brakes capture some of this energy back into a battery)
MHEV (mild hybrid EV) is a new bull tech which has a battery which will only run the electrics in the car (radio, AC etc) , it never powers the wheels

Phevs can at least be run solely on electricity not generated by the combustion engine. They usually have bigger batteries too, so can travel about 50km. They do not require the combustion engine to run.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Isn't that where we recommend a PHEV instead, I'm basically at the point of telling people to ignore hybrids, it's just not a factor in the decision making.

True. Available range (models/types) of cars can limit that though.

boege

I frequently speak to experts in the field of batteries and electric vehicles. I also manage patents on new development in this space.

The general consensus is that EV's become a no-brainer once the grid becomes substantially renewable. The debate is no longer a cost one.

Honda's decision last week to pull out of F1 was a defining moment. F1 is now doomed, in its current guise, as other engine suppliers (there is only Mercedes, Renault and Fiat left) will eventually come to the same conclusion.

It may take another 20-30 years and people will continue buying petrol/diesels for some time yet but a tipping point will come.

elperello

garo wrote: »

I just read through page 2&3 and some of the statements about EV charging and Ireland's electric infrastructure are way off mark. Someone here thinks you would need to charge at 22kW all night and that would destroy the grid. Someone else thinks batteries will explode. Someone else thinks you will have to throw away the EV (or battery) after a few years due to range deterioration.



People have really unrealistic ideas about how much driving they need to do without being able to recharge. For the vast majority a 250km range car will be more than enough. There are exceptions of course so in that sense OP is wrong about nobody needing to buy an oil burner.


Also people have really unrealistic estimates of how much electricity costs. Especially on night rate.

I didn't know from your other post who you were giving out about.

I think this thread illustrates the journey we are on.

People are at different levels of knowledge and the more the options are debated the better.

If this thread was out in the general motors forum rather than EV & Hybrid it might have reached more of the sceptics out there who are numerous.

Black_Knight

elperello wrote: »

If this thread was out in the general motors forum rather than EV & Hybrid it might have reached more of the sceptics out there who are numerous.

And numerous they sure are. Only problem reaching a large number of sceptics is they herd together. Any factual information falls on deaf ears.

RandomViewer

Gumbo wrote: »

For someone like you that does less than 100km a week in the car, an EV would be perfect. My tax is €120 and insurance is €283.

Herself is the same. She uses less than €20 a week diesel but she won’t swap to electric yet she drives mine every day

I wouldn’t bother with the hybrid ioniq. I’d rather keep the petrol car you already have.

Would never pay, debt averse, wouldn't buy it unless I could pay for it in full, was thinking of either 14 Mercedes or newer Hyundai to replace Auris but Covid has somewhat foiled my finances and wouldn't risk buying anything until next summer

Gumbo

RandomViewer wrote: »

Would never pay, debt averse, wouldn't buy it unless I could pay for it in full, was thinking of either 14 Mercedes or newer Hyundai to replace Auris but Covid has somewhat foiled my finances and wouldn't risk buying anything until next summer

I’m the same. Mortgage aside of course.

I don’t “need” a fancy car as I’m on different building sites every day of the week but I’m a car person. Was a petrol head, still am to a certain extent after owning many different cars, barges, sports cars, fast saloons etc

Something electric with nearly 500bhp was the next logical step. I’ll also always have “that car fund” and tomorrow I could be in a Mk5 GTi and the next, an M3 although I’ve owned the M3 already, twice infact but I’ll still buy a golf gti at some stage in the future. Had a mk4 for 24 hours but hated that!

RandomViewer

Gumbo wrote: »

I’m the same. Mortgage aside of course.

I don’t “need” a fancy car as I’m on different building sites every day of the week but I’m a car person. Was a petrol head, still am to a certain extent after owning many different cars, barges, sports cars, fast saloons etc

Something electric with nearly 500bhp was the next logical step. I’ll also always have “that car fund” and tomorrow I could be in a Mk5 GTi and the next, an M3 although I’ve owned the M3 already, twice infact but I’ll still buy a golf gti at some stage in the future. Had a mk4 for 24 hours but hated that!

Only Golf that would interest me is a Mk1 or a Caddy pickup but could never justify it

Idbatterim

meeeeh wrote: »

The last car I bought new I kept for 10 years. If you do that price drop really doesn't matter. Unless you need to change cars every 3 years because what would neighbours think otherwise.

This keeping up with the jones bs! 99 percent of new cars sold are unimpressive cars...

RandomViewer

Idbatterim wrote: »

This keeping up with the jones bs! 99 percent of new cars sold are unimpressive cars...

There's a lot of bland out there

murphyebass

graememk wrote: »

The Pickup, Big SUV, Saloon ie passat, avensus etc, People Carrier, Van market still has to be addressed.

This. +1

If you want a piddly little go cart or a small mid size run around an ev might suit.

Personally I want the big fook off people carrier and most others want big SUV’s.

I’ll be keeping my ugly but huge Ford Galaxy for a long time yet I’d say. 2ltr diesel and €280 tax.

Considering we’re not driving very far these days as well it makes sense to hold what ya have.

liamog

murphyebass wrote: »

This. +1

If you want a piddly little go cart or a small mid size run around an ev might suit.

Personally I want the big fook off people carrier and most others want big SUV’s.

We're seeing a big move towards hybrids and plug in hybrids in the larger car space, they have the space to fit in the electronics alongside the combustion engine. The main reason we're seeing so many supermini's and compact crossovers is they don't have enough room for partial electrification.

murphyebass

liamog wrote: »

We're seeing a big move towards hybrids and plug in hybrids in the larger car space, they have the space to fit in the electronics alongside the combustion engine. The main reason we're seeing so many supermini's and compact crossovers is they don't have enough room for partial electrification.

Pfft hybrids are a half way house of no use to anyone.

Full ev or no point imo

Gumbo

murphyebass wrote: »

Pfft hybrids are a half way house of no use to anyone.

Full ev or no point imo

That’s my moto too.
But, I do understand that some people are still afraid and they are a stepping stone.