How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Murple wrote: »

I’d be interested in reading more about this- studies, evidence, facts and figures etc.
Can you provide any links as I can’t find anything on it?

Linked a few articles from scientists and infection specialists in a previous post.

xhomelezz

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

Difficulties with children managing masks v an adult, children wearing masks regularly for prolonged periods v adults wearing masks for few hours every few weeks.

Risks v benefits, don't understand why you can't see the difference between maybe a 13 year old boy and perhaps a 23 year old man.

Add to that the fact that there's a massive question over the efficacy of masks right now and speculation that they are actually causing more infections than they prevent through incorrect use.

Some logic behind that, seriously. Beats me, so put more pressure and risk on secondary, while making safer rules for third level. Yup makes sense.

And please stop posting misinformation around masks, these arguments got beaten so many times.

byhookorbycrook

I agree re gloves not being changed and used correctly. However , if I’m in close contact with a suspect case , I want to be able to use gloves when dealing with them .

iamwhoiam

Murple wrote: »

There’s many a storage closet that’s been cleared (and sometimes left full) and being used as a support teaching room.
Despite a lot of what has been said, I still don’t think people have a proper grasp on how poor the facilities in a great many schools are.

I am not a teacher but from a family of teachers . I was the only one that wasn’t a teacher and they also married teachers !
I have three nieces and two nephews who are teachers and understand the difficulties
That said , in my opinion using a cupboard as an isolation room for young children must be an absolute last resort and every other alternative explored .

downthemiddle

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

Don't worry that won't happen, huge repercussions for a school even attempting something like that.

If there is no designated room they'll be brought to an area to wait (similar to what happens now anyway just with some extra precautions).

Isolation area needs to be accessible to staff and pupils with disabilities, plus contingency for the fact that there may be several students who require isolation on any given day.

A small storage closet would not be suitable for any of the isolation requirements never mind the fact that it's basically child abuse.

I find this post abhorrent. There was institutionalised child abuse in this country for far too long.As a child I witnessed some of my classmates being abused on a daily basis. Some of the people I grew up with are dead because they never recovered from the abuse they suffered.
To trivialise their suffering because of your need to attack teachers is something you should reflect upon.
Your tirade against teachers has never been about what’s best for children. You have no interest in the discrimination that children with additional needs will suffer when schools reopen. You view that as a price worth paying.
Thankfully the days of institutionalised abuse appear to be in the past. If you genuinely believed that schools are capable of institutionalised abuse why are you so keen to send your children back?
You crossed a line with this post. I genuinely feel sorry for you.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

xhomelezz wrote: »

Some logic behind that, seriously. Beats me, so put more pressure and risk on secondary, while making safer rules for third level. Yup makes sense.

And please stop posting misinformation around masks, these arguments got beaten so many times.

If face coverings aren’t used properly, they can have the effect of increasing the risk of transmission.

Go look it up.

khalessi

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I agree re gloves not being changed and used correctly. However , if I’m in close contact with a suspect case , I want to be able to use gloves when dealing with them .

https://www.hse.gov.uk/skin/posters/glovesingleuse.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nncHYHZOKmA HSE removal of gloves

in case this helps

xhomelezz

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

If face coverings aren’t used properly, they can have the effect of increasing the risk of transmission.

Go look it up.

Nah don't need to, you might jump in to Masks thread and get educated, plenty of studying there for you.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

If face coverings aren’t used properly, they can have the effect of increasing the risk of transmission.

Go look it up.

And if face coverings, with no SD for 7 hours a day, aren't used at all?

iamwhoiam

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

My friend, if you can find me a tent and an appropriately vetted person to supervise kids in it, my principal will bite your hand off for it! :pac: Tent would probably be entertaining for them alright but the supervision is as much of a problem as the location.

As I feel asleep last night thinking about the tent and other possibilities I thought of a little caravan or a smal wooden kids house ! Of course its only musing and trying to find suitable alternatives to isolate a child in . Our own local school has loads of outside space bit of course not all do

ldy4mxonucwsq6

downthemiddle wrote: »

Thankfully the days of institutionalised abuse appear to be in the past. If you genuinely believed that schools are capable of institutionalised abuse why are you so keen to send your children back?
You crossed a line with this post. I genuinely feel sorry for you.

People are concerned about the closet being mentioned as an isolation area.

I said myself that thankfully those days were no more in another post, and if you read the first line of my post that you quoted I said don't worry it won't happen.

I am saying that kids need to be treated sensitively, that's not trivialising things that happened which never were and never will be acceptable, I genuinely apologise if you feel that I was trivialising those events it wasn't intended that way at all.

Boggles

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

Add to that the fact that there's a massive question over the efficacy of masks right now and speculation that they are actually causing more infections than they prevent through incorrect use.

How scientific.

:rolleyes:

alroley

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

If face coverings aren’t used properly, they can have the effect of increasing the risk of transmission.

Go look it up.

Is your job posting in this thread? Every time I check it there's so many posts from you.

am_zarathustra

Masks are only effective at stopping others getting it not preventing you becoming infected. They point is if everyone wears one if dramatically decreases aerosolized particles in poorly ventilated rooms. This does decrease peoples risk. There are plenty of peer reviewed journal articles about this. It's also logically true if you think about it.

Gloves are a different game, they are sometimes a better surface than skim for comogenic transfer and are really one and done measures. As the previous poster said, I would wear them in the room with the student if I needed to touch them, I shouldn't but at primary I assume you might need to help them out a jumper on or something! The gloves should only be worn in the room, out on and taken off and disposed of all within the same space. It's like labcoats, they only work if the stay in the lab.

All PPE required a training, at least schools can provide good training. I have kids wear mask, full cover goggles, lab coats, gloves all the time, it's fine. They get used to it. Sometimes they do it wrong but they learn eventually.....almost like it my job to know how to help them!

wirelessdude01

Quite how my posting regarding how my school intends to use an emptied storage closet as one of our isolation rooms led to comparisons to historical abuse in schools shows the levels of certain posters on here. This is below contempt.

If we had any other option we would use it. We have identified three spaces for use as isolation areas, away from others. Comments along the lines of"they'll have to deal with me" inflame things in a hysterical way. People really need to grab a hold of themselves and cop the flip on and possibly step away from boards if they are getting triggered that much.

iamwhoiam

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Quite how my posting regarding how my school intends to use an emptied storage closet as one of our isolation rooms led to comparisons to historical abuse in schools shows the levels of certain posters on here. This is below contempt.

If we had any other option we would use it. We have identified three spaces for use as isolation areas, away from others. Comments along the lines of"they'll have to deal with me" inflame things in a hysterical way. People really need to grab a hold of themselves and cop the flip on and possibly step away from boards if they are getting triggered that much.

People also must be aware of the anxiety and worry out there among parents and children .This is a public forum read by many who never post and wording should be careful and not cause more upset to people . I know how very important little sentences or words can be to a worried and anxious parent . I dont have a school going child but do have grandchildren and the very thought of a closet for a 5 year old makes me shudder . I am sure I am not alone in this to be honest .
Just as nurses and doctors and frontline staff, teachers have a huge roll to play in this hugely stressful time . Reassurance , calmness and working together for the good of the kids is vital at this moment in time.
This is not actually meant as a criticism but as a pointer that often we all can forget how important a roll that educators and carers of young children play .

ldy4mxonucwsq6

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Quite how my posting regarding how my school intends to use an emptied storage closet as one of our isolation rooms led to comparisons to historical abuse in schools shows the levels of certain posters on here. This is below contempt.

If we had any other option we would use it. We have identified three spaces for use as isolation areas, away from others. Comments along the lines of"they'll have to deal with me" inflame things in a hysterical way. People really need to grab a hold of themselves and cop the flip on and possibly step away from boards if they are getting triggered that much.

I think putting a child in a closet is wrong, that's all that I meant. That has been twisted around into something it's not.

I have apologised to the poster who felt that I was trivialising historical abuse, that absolutely was not my intention at any point and I am really sorry if anyone took it that way.

I do think you're right about taking a break from here, I've been under a lot of pressure lately and I think this is probably unhealthy for me.

Best of luck with whatever September brings.

MickeyLeari

The reality in the current climate is that there cannot be a full reopening of schools. Like other countries there will need to be 50% occupancy so that either means week on week off or a split week - a split week is probably better as all kids will go to school every week. The exception to this rule may need to be leaving cert but even then it may be better to keep things the same for everyone. Teachers will need to be protected (ie masks are needed) but they will be in the classroom every day (otherwise it will not work). Combine this with temperature checks and families being honest in terms of any illness and this is workable. Tell people now and families can plan.

ax530

my children are in a school identified many years ago as not fit for purpose however the process to a new building is very slow.
storage closets have for the past few years being used as resource teaching rooms there is not a space unused in the building and no more room for porta cabins outside either.
So to me the use of a traditional cleaning storage space as a classroom is not unusual and I think it would work fine as an isolation space, preume any parent who gets a call about child going into isolation will arrive asap.
The concept of teaching a child in a closet is not new to the department as I gather from the department view point any space (that includes corridors) can be to teach children in.
Classrooms always seem very cluttered teachers have lots of resources which will need to find a new 'home' to make space for SD.
I just hope schools are working to identify other available space close by to use come Sept community buildings, church buildings, function rooms, empty retail spaces ect these will not be required just to teach children in but also for storage of school suppiles possibly have admin and non teaching staff off site.

morebabies

Do you remember how the schools' reopening was part of Phase 5, yet at the moment due to rising cases we can't proceed to Phase 4... So we're just leapfrogging Phase 4 basically to get the schools open?

Just wondering if cases keep increasing does anyone think they'll do a u-turn and postpone the opening?

wirelessdude01

morebabies wrote: »

Just wondering if cases keep increasing does anyone think they'll do a u-turn and postpone the opening?

Politically they can't be seen to row back on this. Schools will be fully opening is their mantra and come hell or high water they will be sticking to it.

Theboinkmaster

morebabies wrote: »

Do you remember how the schools' reopening was part of Phase 5, yet at the moment due to rising cases we can't proceed to Phase 4... So we're just leapfrogging Phase 4 basically to get the schools open?

Just wondering if cases keep increasing does anyone think they'll do a u-turn and postpone the opening?

phase 4 - mainly pubs, concerts etc. not a requirement

phase 5 - schools re-opening absolutely a requirement

requirement being a fully functioning economy.

the only reason phase 4 is before phase 5 is timing of when schools usually go back anyway.

MickeyLeari

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Politically they can't be seen to row back on this. Schools will be fully opening is their mantra and come hell or high water they will be sticking to it.

I see them having to look at a partial reopening perhaps up until October initially but likely until the end of the new school year. I have been on the relaxing restrictions side of things (and indeed thought the leaving should have gone ahead with a bit of creativity) but it has to be in all cases where there can be a safe environment - with schools you also need a level playing field so that means a partial reopening may be the most sustainable solution.

wirelessdude01

MickeyLeari wrote: »

I see them having to look at a partial reopening perhaps up until October initially but likely until the end of the new school year. I have been on the relaxing restrictions side of things (and indeed thought the leaving should have gone ahead with a bit of creativity) but it has to be in all cases where there can be a safe environment - with schools you also need a level playing field so that means a partial reopening may be the most sustainable solution.

Respectfully disagree that they will do that. They will reopen fully but the chances of them having to row back and go to partial opening are quite high.

vid36

MickeyLeari wrote: »

I see them having to look at a partial reopening perhaps up until October initially but likely until the end of the new school year. I have been on the relaxing restrictions side of things (and indeed thought the leaving should have gone ahead with a bit of creativity) but it has to be in all cases where there can be a safe environment - with schools you also need a level playing field so that means a partial reopening may be the most sustainable solution.

I agree. you get the primary school students in school as much as possible. Secondary school students can do blended learning, in schools on alternative days or weeks.That is what Professor Neil Ferguson suggests. He always states that reopening secondary school will rise the R number.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/05/neil-ferguson-predicts-r-number-rise-if-secondary-schools-fully-reopen

MickeyLeari

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Respectfully disagree that they will do that. They will reopen fully but the chances of them having to row back and go to partial opening are quite high.

Indeed you are probably right that they have nailed themselves to that mast but let’s see the messaging over the next few weeks.

xhomelezz

MickeyLeari wrote: »

Indeed you are probably right that they have nailed themselves to that mask but let’s see the messaging over the next few weeks.

Think they after digging a hole for themselves. Should've put two or three scenarios up depending on situation at the end of the month.

Lyle

Covid-19 may spread more easily in schools than thought, US report warns (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/covid-19-may-spread-more-easily-in-schools-than-thought-us-report-warns-1.4323634

Equally troubling, according to the report, was the fact that – contrary to earlier theories about the spread of the disease in children – younger children, as well as those who spent longer at the camp, appeared more likely to be infected.

The CDC report said: “The findings demonstrate that Sars-CoV-2 spreads efficiently in a youth-centric overnight setting, resulting in high attack rates among persons in all age groups, despite efforts by camp officials to implement most recommended strategies to prevent transmission.”

The report added: “Asymptomatic infection was common and potentially contributed to undetected transmission, as has been previously reported. This investigation adds to the body of evidence demonstrating that children of all ages are susceptible to Sars-CoV-2 infection and, contrary to early reports, might play an important role in transmission.”

A friend just sent me that, their child is in boarding school and they are now even more up in arms than they were up to this point. I hadn't even considered what happens to boarding schools in this environment. Presumably they simply can't operate?

As for everyone else; what have we, three and a bit weeks until opening? Examples like the above will have to enter the conversation... I know the government won't want to roll back on their full re-opening nonsense but as a parent you'd be sick with worry over this stuff, the joke that is the "plan", and now there's scenarios and evidence arising that shows that the virus does impact children, that it spreads from children and that there's a higher probability that it's airborne and that aerosol spread isn't just happening in aerosol-shedding medical procedures. (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-69286-3 / https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.03.20167395v1).

Who needs to acknowledge airborne/aerosol transmission for NPHET/Government to consider it? Does it have to be WHO/ECDC approved logic before it enters the conversation here? I'm getting more and more nervous about all this with every passing day.

wirelessdude01

Lyle wrote: »

Who needs to acknowledge airborne/aerosol transmission for NPHET/Government to consider it? Does it have to be WHO/ECDC approved logic before it enters the conversation here? I'm getting more and more nervous about all this with every passing day.

ECDC are due to be releasing something about school reopenings this week or early next week.

SusanC10

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Respectfully disagree that they will do that. They will reopen fully but the chances of them having to row back and go to partial opening are quite high.

Agree with this.

Also Question - if my Primary School child wants to wear a Mask in the Classroom, will this be allowed ?