How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

downthemiddle

kingbhome wrote: »

No one is allowed to go near .my kids without my permission. If they want to take there temputure randomly, they may phone me so I can be present. That goes for pulling them aside if they they there's any suspicion about anything.

So if your child appears to be sick and the school acts in a reasonable manner they will have you to deal with.

Bananaleaf

While out in the fresh air getting a bit of exercise today, another idea popped into my head.

I know it is far from perfect, but I wonder with some work, would it be doable. There are some obvious problems with it but maybe we might be able to think around them.

So here is the plan. Post primary btw.

Schools have varying numbers of students and varying numbers of teachers, but one thing the vast majority of all schools have had (we will need to work mostly with what we already have) is enough classrooms (in some shape or form) to house the students we have in our schools (as in, there arent currently full classes of 30 being taught on corridors)

Each room in the school is assigned to a group of 30 (less if you have the space)

Each room is assigned a teacher (two if you have the staff)

That is your class. Your pod. You are with them for the day. You teach them the subject or subjects you are qualified to teach them and for the rest you act as a sub, supervising them as they complete work assigned to them by teachers in those subjects.

I know it isn't perfect. Some details:

Each subject department will have to get together and release a 'plan of work' that each year group will do. These could be done a month in advance and would be akin to you leaving 'cover work' for a class you were going to be absent for.

In some schools you could have 50 class groups of 30 students, but you have 60 teachers. Those extra 10 could either tag team with another teacher (eg if I'm French and History and an English ans Science teacher works with me, they could be getting teacher contact time in 4 subjects) or they could somehow be 'floating' teachers who might pop into the odd pod to teach a lesson in a subject area that the teacher of that pod is not familiar with.

Biggest flaw with this plan is that it would require teachers to essentially be 'on' all classes. If there are no teachers to be found (for those extra 1000 positions) I wonder if that money could transfer to teaching hours and staff could opt in to do X number of extra supervision periods with their pod, which they would be paid for, and the second teacher they are tag teaming with could step in and take the rest.

There could be scope for rotating teachers after a month to a different pod, so that the 30 who had the English contact time in Sep but no help in maths could now get a go of the maths teacher.

This is in no way suitable for exam classes. I was wondering if it would work for juniors in the morning time and maybe the seniors come in then in the afternoon for proper classes. Juniors can stay on site in the afternoon, in their pods, doing study or homework. No teaching. Supervisors will be swapped in and out as they are needed to teach their class groups.

Maybe a temporary reassignment of Croke Park hours could help with supervision hours.

I know there is loads wrong with it but in fairness I think there could be the bones of something here if we try to chip away at it

byhookorbycrook

am_zarathustra wrote: »

The guidelines state if I believe a child has symptoms they will be isolated. These are the government guidelines so if you send your child to school you are agreeing to these. I know most parents in my school wouldn't have a problem with checking a child's temperature thankfully

But then there are the parents who will give little Asbo Calpol , because "it's *just" a cold. And it doesn't pick up the asymptomatic children. I'm not sure how schools would staff this either.


This advice from the DES to staff re a suspect case doesn't exactly inspire confidence:
Isolate the suspect case in a room behind a door, make sure you keep them 2 m away from everyone. (Marquee?)

Close the door. BUT, if not in a room,let them stay in the class 2 m away from everyone until parent/s come to collect them. Because it's not spread through aerosol means. Oh- and the teacher should NOT to wear gloves.

combat14

why dont we all go back into schools and shops as normal there have been no deaths the last few days and the numbers of cases are only 50 per day which is nothing really..?

Smacruairi

Bananaleaf wrote: »

While out in the fresh air getting a bit of exercise today, another idea popped into my head.

I know it is far from perfect, but I wonder with some work, would it be doable. There are some obvious problems with it but maybe we might be able to think around them.

So here is the plan. Post primary btw.

Schools have varying numbers of students and varying numbers of teachers, but one thing the vast majority of all schools have had (we will need to work mostly with what we already have) is enough classrooms (in some shape or form) to house the students we have in our schools (as in, there arent currently full classes of 30 being taught on corridors)

Each room in the school is assigned to a group of 30 (less if you have the space)

Each room is assigned a teacher (two if you have the staff)

That is your class. Your pod. You are with them for the day. You teach them the subject or subjects you are qualified to teach them and for the rest you act as a sub, supervising them as they complete work assigned to them by teachers in those subjects.

I know it isn't perfect. Some details:

Each subject department will have to get together and release a 'plan of work' that each year group will do. These could be done a month in advance and would be akin to you leaving 'cover work' for a class you were going to be absent for.

In some schools you could have 50 class groups of 30 students, but you have 60 teachers. Those extra 10 could either tag team with another teacher (eg if I'm French and History and an English ans Science teacher works with me, they could be getting teacher contact time in 4 subjects) or they could somehow be 'floating' teachers who might pop into the odd pod to teach a lesson in a subject area that the teacher of that pod is not familiar with. Ideally those floating teachers would be chosen to get the maximum number of different subject areas (no point in 5 of your floating teachers being geography ones)

Biggest flaw with this plan is that it would require teachers to essentially be 'on' all classes. If there are no teachers to be found (for those extra 1000 positions) I wonder if that money could transfer to teaching hours and staff could opt in to do X number of extra supervision periods with their pod, which they would be paid for, and the second teacher they are tag teaming with could step in and take the rest.

There could be scope for rotating teachers after a month to a different pod, so that the 30 who had the English contact time in Sep but no help in maths could now get a go of the maths teacher.

This is in no way suitable for exam classes. I was wondering if it would work for juniors in the morning time and maybe the seniors come in then in the afternoon for proper classes. Juniors can stay on site in the afternoon, in their pods, doing study or homework. No teaching. Supervisors will be swapped in and out as they are needed to teach their class groups.

Maybe a temporary reassignment of Croke Park hours could help with supervision hours.

I know there is loads wrong with it but in fairness I think there could be the bones of something here if we try to chip away at it

I can't see the students getting 4 subjects per day. I teach maths and physics, I take them for maths, but half the class assigned are honours half are pass. OK just take the honours ones. But half do French half do spanish. OK take honours maths and Spanish, but they don't do accounting and my other teacher colleague only does Irish and accounting and they aren't in his class etc. That's before the "how come Johnny gets 3 of his teachers and my cian only gets one, I'm writing to the board" stuff.

Would be interesting for junior cycle and defo for ty, but I can't imagine many parents of 3rd Yr and leaving cert subjects happy.

Good idea though, but it illustrates why it takes our DP a month to do a timetable, and why vsware offer to do it for a fee (1.5k is what I heard but could be wrong).

byhookorbycrook

Bananaleaf wrote: »

While out in the fresh air getting a bit of exercise today, another idea popped into my head.

I know it is far from perfect, but I wonder with some work, would it be doable. There are some obvious problems with it but maybe we might be able to think around them.

So here is the plan. Post primary btw.

Schools have varying numbers of students and varying numbers of teachers, but one thing the vast majority of all schools have had (we will need to work mostly with what we already have) is enough classrooms (in some shape or form) to house the students we have in our schools (as in, there arent currently full classes of 30 being taught on corridors)

Each room in the school is assigned to a group of 30 (less if you have the space)

Each room is assigned a teacher (two if you have the staff)

That is your class. Your pod. You are with them for the day. You teach them the subject or subjects you are qualified to teach them and for the rest you act as a sub, supervising them as they complete work assigned to them by teachers in those subjects.

I know it isn't perfect. Some details:

Each subject department will have to get together and release a 'plan of work' that each year group will do. These could be done a month in advance and would be akin to you leaving 'cover work' for a class you were going to be absent for.

In some schools you could have 50 class groups of 30 students, but you have 60 teachers. Those extra 10 could either tag team with another teacher (eg if I'm French and History and an English ans Science teacher works with me, they could be getting teacher contact time in 4 subjects) or they could somehow be 'floating' teachers who might pop into the odd pod to teach a lesson in a subject area that the teacher of that pod is not familiar with. Ideally those floating teachers would be chosen to get the maximum number of different subject areas (no point in 5 of your floating teachers being geography ones)

Biggest flaw with this plan is that it would require teachers to essentially be 'on' all classes. If there are no teachers to be found (for those extra 1000 positions) I wonder if that money could transfer to teaching hours and staff could opt in to do X number of extra supervision periods with their pod, which they would be paid for, and the second teacher they are tag teaming with could step in and take the rest.

There could be scope for rotating teachers after a month to a different pod, so that the 30 who had the English contact time in Sep but no help in maths could now get a go of the maths teacher.

This is in no way suitable for exam classes. I was wondering if it would work for juniors in the morning time and maybe the seniors come in then in the afternoon for proper classes. Juniors can stay on site in the afternoon, in their pods, doing study or homework. No teaching. Supervisors will be swapped in and out as they are needed to teach their class groups.

Maybe a temporary reassignment of Croke Park hours could help with supervision hours.

I know there is loads wrong with it but in fairness I think there could be the bones of something here if we try to chip away at it

In secondary, all students don't do the same subjects, so that might be a big snag.



I think a "week on /week off" would be preferable to morning vs afternoon sessions, as I outlined for primary.

Alrigghtythen

They have given detailed guidance. I think it's very clear.


Returning to school
Curriculum guidance for primary school leaders and teachers
July 2020



Schools will need to re-orientate their work with the curriculum especially during the initial weeks of the first term as they give greater time and attention to areas such as Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE), Physical Education (PE), Language and Mathematics. Gradually, as schools build comprehensive pictures of where pupils are in their learning, they will work towards more ‘typical’ curriculum plans.



3.6.5 Social, Environmental and Scientific Education (SESE) [History, Geography, Science]
In order to manage time in a meaningful manner, teachers can use a thematic, integrated and cross-curricular approach to teaching and learning that allows priority learning areas to be addressed while still maintaining the provision of a broad and balanced curriculum. Preparing for teaching and learning through local studies is supported by selecting a main subject from either History, Geography or Science and then rotating this theme-based approach among the three SESE subjects for breadth and depth. This integrated approach supports a variety of learning experiences and links the curriculum content objectives across the strands and strands units within SESE. Children could, for example, participate in local investigations through the use of trails, a combination of activities such as discussions, project work, artwork, and the use of digital technologies.

byhookorbycrook

combat14 wrote: »

why dont we all go back into schools and shops as normal there have been no deaths the last few days and the numbers of cases are only 50 per day which is nothing really..?

Erm, for the same reasons pubs haven't opened " as normal."

No deaths isn't a mark of success. There is a mounting body of evidence to show that even young and very healthy people can be left with life changing and permanent organ damage.


https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-effects-of-covid-19-infection


https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/27/covid19-concerns-about-lasting-heart-damage/
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/covid-19-children-doctors-see-link-between-virus-neurological-side-n1235501

Smacruairi

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

In secondary, all students don't do the same subjects, so that might be a big snag.



I think a "week on /week off" would be preferable to morning vs afternoon sessions, as I outlined for primary.

Funnily enough the parents on this thread don't seem to realise how much power they actually wield. If 6or 7 in a year group get their goat up they can potentially move mountains in a school, particularly if the school sees itself as progressive and up for change. And to be fair, I would for my kid too so I don't blame them at all, more power to them. The moderate parent posters here however (fortunately) don't know of that level of engagement and hassle and how it motivates all BOM decisions, often to the detriment of the moderates.

Smacruairi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

They have given detailed guidance. I think it's very clear.


Returning to school
Curriculum guidance for primary school leaders and teachers
July 2020

Schools will need to re-orientate their work with the curriculum especially during the initial weeks of the first term as they give greater time and attention to areas such as Social, Personal and Health Education (SPHE), Physical Education (PE), Language and Mathematics. Gradually, as schools build comprehensive pictures of where pupils are in their learning, they will work towards more ‘typical’ curriculum plans.



3.6.5 Social, Environmental and Scientific Education (SESE) [History, Geography, Science]
In order to manage time in a meaningful manner, teachers can use a thematic, integrated and cross-curricular approach to teaching and learning that allows priority learning areas to be addressed while still maintaining the provision of a broad and balanced curriculum. Preparing for teaching and learning through local studies is supported by selecting a main subject from either History, Geography or Science and then rotating this theme-based approach among the three SESE subjects for breadth and depth. This integrated approach supports a variety of learning experiences and links the curriculum content objectives across the strands and strands units within SESE. Children could, for example, participate in local investigations through the use of trails, a combination of activities such as discussions, project work, artwork, and the use of digital technologies.

But you said you wanted less SPHE, PE and Pastoral care. You wanted to omit even more from the curriculum. God I can't keep up with your ramblings anymore. Has copy and paste failed you! No!

Bananaleaf

Smacruairi wrote: »

I can't see the students getting 4 subjects per day. I teach maths and physics, I take them for maths, but half the class assigned are honours half are pass. OK just take the honours ones. But half do French half do spanish. OK take honours maths and Spanish, but they don't do accounting and my other teacher colleague only does Irish and accounting and they aren't in his class etc. That's before the "how come Johnny gets 3 of his teachers and my cian only gets one, I'm writing to the board" stuff.

Would be interesting for junior cycle and defo for ty, but I can't imagine many parents of 3rd Yr and leaving cert subjects happy.

Good idea though, but it illustrates why it takes our DP a month to do a timetable, and why vsware offer to do it for a fee (1.5k is what I heard but could be wrong).

Right enough I had forgotten the levels thing. And yeah, okay there would be parents complaining about some getting more provision than others.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

In secondary, all students don't do the same subjects, so that might be a big snag.



I think a "week on /week off" would be preferable to morning vs afternoon sessions, as I outlined for primary.

Yeah fair enough, that's true. Imagine you were in a pod with the Metalwork teacher and you don't even do Metalwork


Aaaargh, see this is the thing!!!! There is literally NO ANSWER

I never wanted to be a deputy or principal anyway but Jesus lads, who would do it now?

Alrigghtythen

Smacruairi wrote: »

But you said you wanted less SPHE, PE and Pastoral care. You wanted to omit even more from the curriculum. God I can't keep up with your ramblings anymore. Has copy and paste failed you! No!

Please quote me where I said that.

Mrsmum

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But then there are the parents who will give little Asbo Calpol , because "it's *just" a cold. .

To be fair, I don't think you can judge what parents did do with what parents will do in this new Covid world. In actual fact, very few people get the flu because the flu knocks you off your feet completely so it really is colds that people have for the most part. Up to now, a child could have numerous colds per year and very few parents, including teachers, would have kept their child and therefore themselves at home for every single cold. Up to now, workplaces would have been less than understanding of their staff, including teachers being off wholesale. But things are different now. A cold now could be Covid so different precautions have to be taken.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

am_zarathustra wrote: »

You are an anonymous troll that spends all day on a teacher's forum. I am just back from sorting the school now, I've no idea what work you do that allows you to spend this much time copying and pasting to a forum

We're not on a teachers forum believe it or not.

khalessi

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Denmark used other buildings, its great they can think outside the box

Yep it was great and that idea was floated to the Deptartment months ago and again recently and basically Foley said no as I have said a load of times before.

am_zarathustra

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

We're not on a teachers forum believe it or not.

I'm aware

Alrigghtythen

khalessi wrote: »

Yep it was great and that idea was floated to the Deptartment months ago and again recently and basically Foley said no as I have said a load of times before.

Ms Foley said existing classrooms would in the first instance be “decluttered” to allow appropriate physical distancing between pupils. If that was not possible schools would then look at repurposing other rooms, or using nearby facilities such as parish halls, as a “last line” for classrooms.

Boggles

kingbhome wrote: »

No one is allowed to go near .my kids without my permission. If they want to take there temputure randomly, they may phone me so I can be present. That goes for pulling them aside if they they there's any suspicion about anything.

I imagine you will get a text saying you can collect your child from the car park.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

kingbhome wrote: »

No one is allowed to go near .my kids without my permission. If they want to take there temputure randomly, they may phone me so I can be present. That goes for pulling them aside if they they there's any suspicion about anything.

This is where schools need to be very careful not to overstep the mark. Is there anything in the guidelines about how to deal with suspected cases or other illnesses?

There's a fine line between mitigating pandemic risk and overstepping the line where a teacher has no medical qualification. The school are acting in loco parentis so not sure what the legalities will be.

I would have no problem with temperature being taken, kids are well used to it and it's a pretty normal thing for them, it's in no way distressing.

But schools will need to be cautious in how they approach things.

Personally I have never had anyone refuse a temperature check yet, it's part of our procedures and if they were to refuse they'd be asked to leave. We have to log our temperatures twice a day in work, get used to it fairly quickly.

khalessi

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

This is where schools need to be very careful not to overstep the mark. Is there anything in the guidelines about how to deal with suspected cases or other illnesses?

There's a fine line between mitigating pandemic risk and overstepping the line where a teacher has no medical qualification. The school are acting in loco parentis so not sure what the legalities will be.

I would have no problem with temperature being taken, kids are well used to it and it's a pretty normal thing for them, it's in no way distressing.

But schools will need to be cautious in how they approach things.

Personally I have never had anyone refuse a temperature check yet, it's part of our procedures and if they were to refuse they'd be asked to leave. We have to log our temperatures twice a day in work, get used to it fairly quickly.

Most schools have parents sign a permission slip to allow medical treatment be given in an emergency including dressing of wound, band aids and temperature taking can be done without touching the child, so it could come within this remit. As stated elsewhere people have to adapt.

jrosen

There is nothing invasive about a temp check, any parent objecting is being difficult for the sake of it.

Bananaleaf

kingbhome wrote: »

No one is allowed to go near .my kids without my permission. If they want to take there temputure randomly, they may phone me so I can be present. That goes for pulling them aside if they they there's any suspicion about anything.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

jrosen wrote: »

There is nothing invasive about a temp check, any parent objecting is being difficult for the sake of it.

Especially the infrared no contact ones, even make it a bit of a novelty for the smallies.

Would be great to get the thermal tablets at every entrance but there's no way it would be considered due to cost and current demand (and probably some mad Gdpr reason because it uses facial recognition, but also doubles as an attendance register).

I'm old enough to remember mercury thermometers, not pleasant :eek:

iamwhoiam

Alden Loose Squid wrote: »

Especially the infrared no contact ones, even make it a bit of a novelty for the smallies.

Would be great to get the thermal tablets at every entrance but there's no way it would be considered due to cost and current demand (and probably some mad Gdpr reason because it uses facial recognition, but also doubles as an attendance register).

I'm old enough to remember mercury thermometers, not pleasant :eek:

I am old enough to remember them breaking on the floor of a ward and chasing the mercury around to catch every bit !!

wirelessdude01

Blondini wrote: »

I'm calling it now.

With the current numbers, and the pattern of spread across the country, I think the decision on FULL reopening will be reconconsidered by the experts.

Politically they can't do this unless medically things go totally to the dogs.

am_zarathustra

90% of parents are absolutely unreal, helpful, responsive, doing their best and raising pretty great humans but there are always a few that will be awkward for awkward sakes. I've seen some mad interactions with parents and downright scary ones. There's a reason you have to buzz into some schools.

I think most parents will be supportive of the protocols put in place and schools should certainly be communicating with parents to give them as much information as possible. I know a lot of parents will go above and beyond with regards to supports. Maybe this will put pressure on the fringe element to think about their actions and reassess their priorities not only for their own kids but for the whole community

wirelessdude01

kingbhome wrote: »

No one is allowed to go near .my kids without my permission. If they want to take there temputure randomly, they may phone me so I can be present. That goes for pulling them aside if they they there's any suspicion about anything.

So you are saying that a school can't put your kids in the isolation room as mandated by the guidelines issued by the department? That is such a selfish way of thinking if so.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I am old enough to remember them breaking on the floor of a ward and chasing the mercury around to catch every bit !!


Still flabbergasted that any parent would object to a childs temperature being checked . We are in a pandemic and honestly some people need to get a grip !

All the little grey balls going everywhere so dangerous and really not very hygienic when you think about it now

I'll never take the handheld zapper for granted, some of the private hospital are using thermal scanners at entry, fantastic things, no human intervention needed you're either OK to enter or not.

Would be great to have them installed permanently at schools and the likes of nursing homes/hospitals or large indoor settings but they'd be very expensive about 3k each.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

am_zarathustra wrote: »

fringe element

wirelessdude01

Our school is on about getting 8 of the handheld thermoscanners, one for each mainstream class. Plan is for all staff to have temp.taken and then as the children arrive in temps to be taken at the gate.

Not quite sure which policy is being written/amended to take account of this.

Temps to also be taken as the children go out for lunch and all staff temps to be taken at the lunch break as well.