2020 the battle of the septuagenarians - Trump vs Biden, Part 2

Quin_Dub

Overheal wrote: »

In other news, Michael Flynn's case is still on the books, and will be re-heard by the full bench of the DC circuit.

It's not going well for him

WASHINGTON — The entire Federal Appeals Court in Washington said on Thursday that it would take up a case involving Attorney General William P. Barr’s decision to drop the prosecution of President Trump’s former national security adviser Michael T. Flynn, erasing a split decision by a three-judge panel in June ordering an immediate end to the case.

A terse order from the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said that a majority of its members had voted to vacate a June 24 panel decision ordering the immediate dismissal of the case against Mr. Flynn, and set oral arguments before the full court for Aug. 11.

Overheal

Yep WaPo nothing this vacates the order from June to dismiss the case:

The decision to rehear the case before a full complement of judges wipes out the June ruling from a three-judge panel that ordered Sullivan to immediately dismiss the case and said Sullivan was wrong to appoint a retired federal judge to argue against the government’s move to undo Flynn’s guilty plea.

Other fun read: those FISA errors? Nothing in them, according to the FBI and the DOJ:

A review by the Justice Department and FBI of errors made in more than two dozen applications to a secret surveillance court has found that the mistakes were not so serious that they undercut the validity of the court documents, the FBI said Thursday.

The statement cited a not-yet public filing that the Justice Department and FBI have made to the court created by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The agencies filed the document in response to the department’s inspector general revealing in March that his office had found a host of errors in 29 FISA applications they examined.

As a result of the inspector general findings, the FBI and Justice Department took a closer look at those 29 applications, and has now concluded “none of the errors . . . undermined or otherwise impacted the validity” of the surveillance orders.

The bureau said the 29 documents contained approximately 6,771 factual assertions. Those assertions also contained 201 “non-material” errors, including “minor typographical errors, such as misspelled words, and slight date inaccuracies.”

A spokeswoman for the inspector general declined to comment. Back in March, the inspector general’s office said it had “identified apparent errors or inadequately supported facts in all of the 25 applications we reviewed,” the memo said, adding that in another four cases, they couldn’t even find a corresponding file meant to act as a fact-checking exercise for FBI agents seeking surveillance orders.

Thursday’s FBI statement also noted that the 29 FISA applications predated changes to the surveillance process ordered by Director Christopher A. Wray. The FBI said in its statement that the bureau “remains confident these actions will fully address the findings and recommendations” of the inspector general.

Trump is having a shyte day.

Arghus

Trump's gamesmanship is so blatant each and everytime.

Negative newstory, uh, oh, better start talking about something outrageous and get the media focused on that instead and allow everyone to forget about that first bit of bad news.

And the media just falls for it, again and again.

Montageofhell

The bookies are rarely wrong. They have Biden as a warm favourite for this. Trump is in trouble.

Overheal

Montageofhell wrote: »

The bookies are rarely wrong. They have Biden as a warm favourite for this. Trump is in trouble.

They paid out early on Trump losing in 2016.... its not over until its over.

Montageofhell

Overheal wrote: »

They paid out early on Trump losing in 2016.... its not over until its over.

That's true and I remember the election of 2004. Bush v Kerry. As I was going to bed at around 12 o clock, Kerry was 1/3. I thought, that's over anyway. Woke up in the morning and Bush had won.

My earlier point is invalid then. Carry on.

Overheal

Montageofhell wrote: »

As I was going to bed at around 12 o clock, Kerry was 1/3. I thought, that's over anyway. Woke up in the morning and Bush had won.

Exactly my experience dozing off on election night in 2016.

---

Catching up on Pompeo's hearing, it's going quite well both for Pompeo and both sides of the panel, there seems to be a lot that all parties are interested in working together on.

As for the Russian bounties, which I still think the Trump administration and campaign have bungled PR on - Pompeo nailed it in his answer to Sen. Shaheen (D-MO) who was confronting him on this issue, and upon hearing it I'm surprised this hasn't been the Trump talking point all along:

"I don't think there's any doubt in the mind of every Russian leader, including Vladimir Putin, about the expectations of the United States of America not to kill Americans. I can promise you that the 300 Russians who were in Syria and who took action that threatened America who are no longer on this planet understand that, too."

Can't fault that. This is all the American public wanted to hear, really, aside from Trump suggesting he took it seriously and would stop acting like a Russian stooge. Though TBF he is referencing a 4-hour skirmish that happened in 2018, and these revelations of bounties are far more recent.

Overheal

Trump currently delighted to have skewed media attention today on other negative press for him

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1288932940337090561?s=20

hotmail.com

Overheal wrote: »

Solely because you brought it up. Talk about a self-fulfilling strawman much. Clearly you've come in here solely with the purpose to conjure your own battle, looking for people to take the position you are itching to fight. Personally, I'm disinterested in it - and going off other comments a plurality of other contributors are as well. There's plenty to discuss even just today with the 32.9% negative GDP and Herman Cain's death that we don't IMO need to conjure an argument of 'Trump is not a dictator - change my mind' - which you appear to be doing so in bad faith. But heck if you and Leroy want to mutually hash the topic out who am I to judge, I just wish you'd stop pretending that "Trump is a dictator" posts are some widespread plague on here. It's boring and disproven.

You're resorting to repeatedly calling me strawman says a lot about your debating style.

Overheal

hotmail.com wrote: »

You're resorting to repeatedly calling me strawman says a lot about your debating style.

That does nothing to refute anything I said of yours.

hotmail.com

Overheal wrote: »

That does nothing to refute anything I said of yours.

It's Trumpian style, name calling, over and over again.

Overheal

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's Trumpian style, name calling, over and over again.

What name calling?

Timberrrrrrrr

hotmail.com wrote: »

You're resorting to repeatedly calling me strawman says a lot about your debating style.

No one has called you a strawman.

ohnonotgmail

hotmail.com wrote: »

It's Trumpian style, name calling, over and over again.

it is really simple. you have come in here with your people are calling trump a dictator nonsense. nobody has said he is. if you want to continue with your nonsense then quote where posters have done that otherwise you are just strawmanning.

4068ac1elhodqr

Montageofhell wrote: »

The bookies are rarely wrong. They have Biden as a warm favourite for this. Trump is in trouble.

Clinton was much more of a favourite in the run up to 2016.

Overheal wrote: »

They paid out early on Trump losing in 2016.... its not over until its over.

Technically... they paid out on Hilary winning early (all bets on HC paid), not a a 'lay' market as such.
The paid out again on all bets for the Donald when he won.

A (Live)Trader dangled the low-fruity price of 9.0 (or so) at me on election night, which was gladly accepted in the wee small hours.

Still to early to call this one, the single largest factor is if elderly Joe runs out of steam pre-November (health failure), and is replaced suddenly by someone with little media exposure.

hotmail.com

Oh maybe strawman wasn't name calling. I happily retract that. I can't keep up with these American terms and language.

Overheal

I should explain: straw man fallacy "is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be attacking a straw man." It is not calling the person engaged in the straw man, the straw man.... Which, saying that I called you the straw man, in and of itself is either an honest misunderstanding of what I wrote or... a straw man argument

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I didn't think this was an Americanism, these are just logical fallacies, of which there are many, the common ones usually referenced here:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Many moons ago I became intimate with the idea of argumentum ad hominem as a fallacy for instance, because I came across it in forms like this:



And I find being aware of the fallacies makes one refine better, more constructive arguments. But yes, my debate style is often to call these fallacies out when I see them - which itself is a fallacy if used as the sole reason to undermine someones otherwise-valid argument In this case I'm not saying nobody calls Trump a dictator or is dictator-y I'm just saying we hadn't been engaged in that here on this forum, broadly across the internet yeah its been seen.

engleburt

Joe really got the people all fired up to vote for him

https://www.settleforbiden.org/

Overheal

engleburt wrote: »

Joe really got the people all fired up to vote for him

https://www.settleforbiden.org/

Don't care if satire or not that's hilarious.

Overheal

The White House reportedly scrapped a nationwide testing plan for Covid-19 because the outbreak was affecting Blue states disproportionately, and Kushner and other decision-makers felt that helping those states did not politically benefit them

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-wh-reportedly-ditched-national-testing-plan-in-april-because-virus-was-only-hitting-blue-states-hard/

threeball

ollkiller

Overheal wrote: »

The White House reportedly scrapped a nationwide testing plan for Covid-19 because the outbreak was affecting Blue states disproportionately, and Kushner and other decision-makers felt that helping those states did not politically benefit them

https://www.mediaite.com/politics/trump-wh-reportedly-ditched-national-testing-plan-in-april-because-virus-was-only-hitting-blue-states-hard/

If that's true it really shows how they put no value on human life whatsoever. Disgraceful.

ohnonotgmail

ollkiller wrote: »

If that's true it really shows how they put no value on human life whatsoever. Disgraceful.

that really should not come as a surprise to anybody.

threeball

ollkiller wrote: »

If that's true it really shows how they put no value on human life whatsoever. Disgraceful.

Its been that way in America for years. Dick Cheney started a war in Iraq so his buddies in Halliburton and Lockheed could cash in which in turn he made a mint off the back of. No regard for the Americans, Iraqis or any other country that lost people in that sh1tshow. Over 2million dead so he and his mates could get richer.

ExMachina1000

ollkiller wrote: »

If that's true it really shows how they put no value on human life whatsoever. Disgraceful.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mediaite/

A horrendously poor news news "organisation "
Blatantly biased with a very poor record on reporting facts.

Lefty version of Breitbart

MisterAnarchy

Overheal wrote: »

Meanwhile Obama spoke less than an hour ago at Lewis' Funeral where he fired shots at Trump without naming him. #classact

Obama cynically used a funeral eulogy as a campaign speech .
Thats a really low thing to do .

ExMachina1000

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Obama cynically used a funeral eulogy as a campaign speech .
Thats a really low thing to do .

If Trump did that...... you know the rest

ohnonotgmail

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Obama cynically used a funeral eulogy as a campaign speech .
Thats a really low thing to do .

i wasnt aware that obama was up for election.

Igotadose

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mediaite/

A horrendously poor news news "organisation "
Blatantly biased with a very poor record on reporting facts.

Lefty version of Breitbart

Look at the original article (mediaite is an aggregator, unlike lying nazi-sympathisizing scum like Breitbart, founded by criminal Andrew Breitbart and routinely caught out lying.) It's from Vanity Fair. It's factual. Equating Mediaite with Breitbart is intellectually lazy. Work harder

Cody montana

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Obama cynically used a funeral eulogy as a campaign speech .
Thats a really low thing to do .

Campaign speech?
You know he’s not running, right?