Can we have some fcuking control on the airports from high risk countries please?

Danno

faceman wrote: »

People really have the horn for this topic.

Not quite, but you really have a badger up your pipe about any form of restrictions on incoming passengers. I presume from your profile pic that you are somewhat involved in aviation and are looking at another few months of PUP and thus are suffering serious financial shortcomings because of this kunt of a virus.

However, I present the following facts:

Late June and Early July 2020 we had cases down in single figures here. However, airlines resumed flying Irish people out for their "hols" as soon as school term ended. The result: https://www.newstalk.com/news/coronavirus-60-irish-cases-traced-one-strain-spain-1099162

There were 1.45 million passenger movements through our airports during this time. (July, August, September) https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/as/aviationstatisticsquarter32020/

After all that virus was imported AGAIN, we had another lockdown in late October as you well know. With Christmas coming, our glorious leaders decided to leave airports open to anyone who wished to come. The result: https://www.newstalk.com/news/coronavirus-51-further-virus-related-deaths-and-2608-new-cases-announced-1138838

We are still awaiting the Q4 data from the CSO, but rest assured it won't be pretty.

Already we know the south African strain is here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-south-african-strain-detected-for-first-time-in-ireland-1.4453160 and it sure didn't swim here.

We also know that 1,500 passengers arrived here from the South American continent: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/concern-over-covid-19-variants-prompts-call-for-recent-arrivals-from-brazil-to-seek-a-test-1.4460650

It is POINTLESS asking Irish people to suffer a third (in some cases a fourth) lockdown.

We as a nation done very well getting cases down to low single figures by the start of July. Going back to the well and asking us all to keep restrictions going gets very tiresome, wrecks the economy and public morale - especially while we have wide open borders.

Fcuk the EU, Fcuk Arelene Foster, Fcuk Borris Johnson and most importantly Fcuk Michael O Leary.

The following actions must take place:
* Phonecall to Stormont and ask them to pick one - join the Dublin Govt in an all-island approach to keeping Covid19 out or face a border seal from Donegal to Louth. No ifs buts or ands. Anyone employed in NI but living in the ROI will get €700-€1000 per week PUP payment.
* Trucking companies to be encouraged to arrange drop at port/border and have internal Irish trucking companies complete the last mile of the trip. Government could temporarily refund excise and carbon tax fees on fuel to encourage co-operation for truckers.
* Anyone essential travelling here must provide a negative PCR test and mandatory quarantine here for four or five days until a second negative PCR test is obtained.

These measures would pretty much rule out any further importation of the virus.

Once these measures are in place turn to the Irish Public and guarantee them that four weeks of strict restrictions followed by four weeks of lighter restrictions will be followed by a complete relaxation of all restrictions.

In this eight-week period, test and trace the fcuk out of this virus. 7am-11pm teams working on this. Ditto for the vaccine - 7am-11pm roll out seven days a week.

By St. Patrick's Day we'd be pretty much home and dry with our own country back. Keep international restrictions painfully severe until the rest of the EU is sorted.

Anything else is going to be an utter and complete failure.

Either get rid of the virus now or let it fcuking rip. This one foot in, one foot out pussying about is nauseating.

UDAWINNER

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/13838970/covid-quarantine-hotels-uk-arrivals/

I know its the Sun, but if it is put in place in the UK, we surely have to do the same, lets see how many selfish pricks travel when they have to for fork out for this as well as 2 tests.

maestroamado

Tenzor07 wrote: »

That's just for PR, won't stop anyone leaving the country and won't stop anyone arriving....

Wasn't a single checkpoint anywhere near the airport all 2020 when it may have made sense back in March/April...

There is absolutely no need for Gardai be involved in this.
There are Airport police at the Airport and this is their purpose.
If there not enough it may be an option to second some of the new Garda recruits.
I was at Dublin Airport last week and it was very quiet.
Now the Gardai in their wisdom have decided to disrupt traffic around the Airport and only ba small percent of cars on-route to Airport. CRAZY STUFF

Also the powers that be that said 10 days ago was compulsory to enter this country are now saying that if people have not proper test stay in hotel for 5 nights. WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS?

Gradius

Either do a blanket ban or don't bother.

Anecdotal, a bloke wants to go to Asian country but was told he can't because that country has banned all people from Ireland.

However, if he travels to certain European country's, then the Asian country WILL allow him in.

Ridiculous

Danno

maestroamado wrote: »

WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS?

Vested interests, especially those who donate handsomely to certain political parties. These types usually have ministers on speed dial and thus dictate policy. Most of our politicians are under the whip from the party and will toe-the-line.
Then we have the journalists, who are either owned or rely heavily on advertising by vested interests, that won't call out the ministers on their policies.
She's a tight ship and anyone rocking the boat will be quickly thrown overboard.
This is how Ireland operates.

Tenzor07

maestroamado wrote: »

There is absolutely no need for Gardai be involved in this.
There are Airport police at the Airport and this is their purpose.
If there not enough it may be an option to second some of the new Garda recruits.
I was at Dublin Airport last week and it was very quiet.
Now the Gardai in their wisdom have decided to disrupt traffic around the Airport and only ba small percent of cars on-route to Airport. CRAZY STUFF
Also the powers that be that said 10 days ago was compulsory to enter this country are now saying that if people have not proper test stay in hotel for 5 nights. WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS?

While I agree, the public roads into and through the airport are considered "Public areas" where the Gardai have jurisdiction... It's only the internal roads and passenger areas where the AP have any powered... They certainly don't have the powers to stop the public entering or leaving, they have to call the Gards for that..though there is a Garda station at the airport and many of them working there...

DraftDodger

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Israel to ban all commercial passenger flights for two weeks. Then review.

We need to follow suit here. No more faffing around

faceman

Danno wrote: »

Not quite, but you really have a badger up your pipe about any form of restrictions on incoming passengers. I presume from your profile pic that you are somewhat involved in aviation and are looking at another few months of PUP and thus are suffering serious financial shortcomings because of this kunt of a virus.

However, I present the following facts:

Late June and Early July 2020 we had cases down in single figures here. However, airlines resumed flying Irish people out for their "hols" as soon as school term ended. The result: https://www.newstalk.com/news/coronavirus-60-irish-cases-traced-one-strain-spain-1099162

There were 1.45 million passenger movements through our airports during this time. (July, August, September) https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/as/aviationstatisticsquarter32020/

After all that virus was imported AGAIN, we had another lockdown in late October as you well know. With Christmas coming, our glorious leaders decided to leave airports open to anyone who wished to come. The result: https://www.newstalk.com/news/coronavirus-51-further-virus-related-deaths-and-2608-new-cases-announced-1138838

We are still awaiting the Q4 data from the CSO, but rest assured it won't be pretty.

Already we know the south African strain is here: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-south-african-strain-detected-for-first-time-in-ireland-1.4453160 and it sure didn't swim here.

We also know that 1,500 passengers arrived here from the South American continent: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/concern-over-covid-19-variants-prompts-call-for-recent-arrivals-from-brazil-to-seek-a-test-1.4460650

It is POINTLESS asking Irish people to suffer a third (in some cases a fourth) lockdown.

We as a nation done very well getting cases down to low single figures by the start of July. Going back to the well and asking us all to keep restrictions going gets very tiresome, wrecks the economy and public morale - especially while we have wide open borders.

Fcuk the EU, Fcuk Arelene Foster, Fcuk Borris Johnson and most importantly Fcuk Michael O Leary.

The following actions must take place:
* Phonecall to Stormont and ask them to pick one - join the Dublin Govt in an all-island approach to keeping Covid19 out or face a border seal from Donegal to Louth. No ifs buts or ands. Anyone employed in NI but living in the ROI will get €700-€1000 per week PUP payment.
* Trucking companies to be encouraged to arrange drop at port/border and have internal Irish trucking companies complete the last mile of the trip. Government could temporarily refund excise and carbon tax fees on fuel to encourage co-operation for truckers.
* Anyone essential travelling here must provide a negative PCR test and mandatory quarantine here for four or five days until a second negative PCR test is obtained.

These measures would pretty much rule out any further importation of the virus.

Once these measures are in place turn to the Irish Public and guarantee them that four weeks of strict restrictions followed by four weeks of lighter restrictions will be followed by a complete relaxation of all restrictions.

In this eight-week period, test and trace the fcuk out of this virus. 7am-11pm teams working on this. Ditto for the vaccine - 7am-11pm roll out seven days a week.

By St. Patrick's Day we'd be pretty much home and dry with our own country back. Keep international restrictions painfully severe until the rest of the EU is sorted.

Anything else is going to be an utter and complete failure.

Either get rid of the virus now or let it fcuking rip. This one foot in, one foot out pussying about is nauseating.

Good post Danno and deserved of a response.

I do have a particular bee in my bonnet for a variety of reasons. I am not however affiliated with the aviation or travel industry. My profile picture is of Templeton Peck (Dirk Benedict) in a sailor's hat I currently reside in Spain and have been here for most of the past year. I have experience travel and restrictions in both countries. I travelled to Ireland twice last year, one of which was essential travel when Ireland was in lockdown number 2 for a family funeral.

Despite what you think, I have always been supportive of measures around travel. I posted this in another thread but I dont think I posted it in this thread:

There are numerous studies on travel and the impact on virus etc. The controls in place Europe now and a lot more stringent than they were last year. Nothing is foolproof, but the notion that people are heading off on a week's holiday or short break in their swimming trunks is a myth. Its just not happening.

The travel issue needs to be addressed from a few perspectives.

* Intra EU travel - we have greater controls and centralised data to allow for greater freedoms here where appropriate.

* Travel from outside the EU (including UK) - This needs to continue to be curtailed with the exception of essential travel. We dont have the same controls and consistency with data that we have with the EU.

* Defining essential travel. This is not so easy. Its clearly not as simple as saying people travelling on compassionate grounds and supply chains. The other reasons, personal to individuals that may be justified as essential travel. I dont support people fecking off for a week's holiday or a city break but then again given the scale of restrictions in other EU countries, its a huge deterrent anyway. I dont have an issue with people taking extended stays abroad and working remote working. I know a few people who are doing it, not for a few weeks but for at least 1-2 months. Some people are doing it for mental health reasons, some are doing it because they have ties in other countries. I wouldn't begrudge that. People taking extended trips away from Ireland and having to adhere to testing requirements travelling are not contributing to transmission in Ireland while they are away and the risk is minimal on return (from an EU perspective) given the EU wide measures.

* Moving away from punitive enforcement to supportive isolation. Studies in Australia, China and New Zealand show that without the infrastructure to support Covid-19 measures, punitive measures dont work. WHO has been pushing this approach with countries for months and its mostly falling on deaf ears in Europe, although the UK has changed its approach. Ireland on any issue always takes either punitive approach or none at all. We need a total culture change to stop treating people like potential criminals and focus on positive psychology.

In addition, there needs to be greater controls on domestic measures. This is where the real issue is. Even if we close the borders completely, Covid will still circulate and recirculate in Ireland over and over.
For example. The current expectation is Gardai will do house calls on travellers to make sure they are isolating. I support this measure. However this approach also needs to be carried out with people who have tested positive unrelated to travel and close contacts. A study in the UK found that c. 80% of people dont self isolate as required be it travel, or a confirmed case of covid or close contact. I cant imagine Ireland is any different. Text messages and phone calls dont cut it. (I didn't even get 1 text message when I returned to Ireland for the funeral)

Similar when hospitality. re-opens stricter enforcement of social distancing, capacity and mask wearing is essential. Many venues took the piss in Ireland, particularly over Christmas, and bar a token media focus on a pub in Waterford, there was no repercussions. Contrast that with the Spanish experience and police are spot checking hospitality venues once and in some cases twice a day. Owners live in fear of breaking the rules as the cops have the power to close you without a court order.

You make some good points and suggestions but the practicality isn't not so easy. No matter what the border with NI is not going to close nor is Ireland going to close the mainland UK border. Unless the government pays for your suggested changes, companies won't adapt them. We will to look at alternatives

Finally, from what Im hearing travel restrictions will remain in Ireland till the summer of 2022. This hasn't been published in the media yet as far as I know. These could become the most punitive measures in the EU and the harm it will do goes way beyond people missing out on holidays. I dont think most people realise the extent of how for a country like ireland, people have family in other countries, or work in other countries etc etc. Also if we have strict controls on travel beyond what other countries do, it will also impact existing and future FDI.

maestroamado

Tenzor07 wrote: »

While I agree, the public roads into and through the airport are considered "Public areas" where the Gardai have jurisdiction... It's only the internal roads and passenger areas where the AP have any powered... They certainly don't have the powers to stop the public entering or leaving, they have to call the Gards for that..though there is a Garda station at the airport and many of them working there...

The checkpoint i seen was presented on the media as a checkpoint to monitor Air Travel, i am pretty sure it was on the route where Blue car park is.
My point if it was just a Gardai checkpoint its ok, for me the Airport is already pretty well policed and the Gardai need not go there, its just the information is being falsly presented, i went out and into Dublin in last 2 weeks.
It may be i am wrong but i think the travel is being over-policed and instead of putting trust in people people are being delayed unnecesserly when most people are doing their very best to do the right thing, its trust and support our people need instead of being held up for no reason. "i think the carrot better than the stick"
There is technology for plate recognition and in my view it should be used to monitor this instead of delaying people in these dificult times.
If there is a serious offended then use the STICK..

Danno

faceman wrote: »

We need a total culture change to stop treating people like potential criminals and focus on positive psychology.

Thank you for the well reasoned reply, I don't have time right now to respond to each point - I hope to do so later this evening or by midweek.

Just one point really quick: The above piece I have quoted from your response - The virus doesn't care about positive psychology. Humans carry the virus, to time to treat humans like the virus: remove all opportunities it to spread.

The Irish people living here are sick of rolling lockdowns - we get the numbers down and once opened back up again there seems to be another variant arrive here off the back of a flight. See my linked news articles above - I thought I laid this out in my timeline above quite well.

We are trying to empty the bathwater of Covid19 in Ireland, first job should be to turn off the taps (incoming virus and variants). Only when the taps are off is it fair to ask the Irish public to go again and drain the bath via stringent lockdowns.

Danno

maestroamado wrote: »

The checkpoint i seen was presented on the media as a checkpoint to monitor Air Travel, i am pretty sure it was on the route where Blue car park is.
My point if it was just a Gardai checkpoint its ok, for me the Airport is already pretty well policed and the Gardai need not go there, its just the information is being falsly presented, i went out and into Dublin in last 2 weeks.
It may be i am wrong but i think the travel is being over-policed and instead of putting trust in people people are being delayed unnecesserly when most people are doing their very best to do the right thing, its trust and support our people need instead of being held up for no reason. "i think the carrot better than the stick"
There is technology for plate recognition and in my view it should be used to monitor this instead of delaying people in these dificult times.
If there is a serious offended then use the STICK..

If you are trusting people then you are trusting the virus.

How many more lockdowns until people stop trusting the virus.

The "ah shure it'll be grand" attitude in Ireland can really come to bite us in the a$$ in times like this. There was none of this attitude in 2001 for fcuking cows and foot-and-mouth cause the politicians knew the farmers would be livid if the industry collapsed over it. Even the NI border was sealed then. Why not now

ShineOn7

Danno wrote: »

There was none of this attitude in 2001 for fcuking cows and foot-and-mouth cause the politicians knew the farmers would be livid if the industry collapsed over it. Even the NI border was sealed then. Why not now

Excellent point

Tenzor07

maestroamado wrote: »

There is technology for plate recognition and in my view it should be used to monitor this instead of delaying people in these dificult times.
If there is a serious offended then use the STICK..

Yes of course there's ANPR cameras, but what are you suggesting? Placing them at the entrance to the Airport, what then? Automatic €100 fine in the post? How does that work for Taxi's and Busses?

maestroamado

Danno wrote: »

If you are trusting people then you are trusting the virus.

How many more lockdowns until people stop trusting the virus.

The "ah shure it'll be grand" attitude in Ireland can really come to bite us in the a$$ in times like this. There was none of this attitude in 2001 for fcuking cows and foot-and-mouth cause the politicians knew the farmers would be livid if the industry collapsed over it. Even the NI border was sealed then. Why not now

Its only people can stop it "ah sure it will be grand" thats what we have being doing.
(ie) up until 15 Jan anyone could drive from NI to Dublin Airport, get on a plane and fly to Spain without test, if they flew from Belfast had to be tested.
We changed the day it was announced we were highest in the world by WHO.
Its not the responcibility of Government/Gardai, its the responcibility over 12 years old.
I think this messagbe was sent out people would take charge of themselves and if people were not behaving their peers would have a friendly word. For me enforcement not the way to do ADVISE/EDUCATE and thank tjhe people with message each day for efforts...

maestroamado

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yes of course there's ANPR cameras, but what are you suggesting? Placing them at the entrance to the Airport, what then? Automatic €100 fine in the post? How does that work for Taxi's and Busses?

There is no problem within Airport as only people there are travelling and Airport police/security/customs have all under control or thats what i see.
For me the checkpoints have nothing to do with Air Travel so it should not be stated as Air Travel excercise. Dublin airport is running less than 10% and there is no problem inside, why are the Government saying the Airport police not doing job?
I do not think we ar allowed drive to Airport drop-off/collect anymore but i could be wrong as i use one of the car parks...

Tenzor07

maestroamado wrote: »

There is no problem within Airport as only people there are travelling and Airport police/security/customs have all under control or thats what i see.
For me the checkpoints have nothing to do with Air Travel so it should not be stated as Air Travel excercise. Dublin airport is running less than 10% and there is no problem inside, why are the Government saying the Airport police not doing job?
I do not think we ar allowed drive to Airport drop-off/collect anymore but i could be wrong as i use one of the car parks...

Well, get ready for even harsher penalties if found to be traveling to the Airport without having reasonable ground to do so...

https://www.independent.ie/news/much-stricter-sanctions-for-breaching-5km-travel-limit-on-the-cards-warns-ryan-40007810.html

fly_agaric

Danno wrote: »

If you are trusting people then you are trusting the virus.

How many more lockdowns until people stop trusting the virus.

The "ah shure it'll be grand" attitude in Ireland can really come to bite us in the a$$ in times like this

In fairness it is more than the cultural Irish "ah shure" attitude to rules and plans.

At the core of all this is the thorny problem of moving to impose authoritarian measures on a very free society where people & businesses are accustomed to doing what they want, and the state takes a very light hand.

It is a problem for all liberal, democratic societies in this crisis.

When countries are as interconnected as UK/Ireland and Ireland/rest of EU imposing strong travel restrictions is a very painful move (moreso than in countries like NZ/Australia) as you see from the angry posts on this thread.

IMO government here (like rest of Europe) decided this crisis is not quite serious enough to effectively move to a war footing & start to force unpleasant measures on the population to attempt to eliminate the virus so we had "living with Covid" plan here etc. and many government "recommendations" on public health with little enforcement.
They weighed preserving the liberal/consensual way that this country is governed against tackling the threat posed by the virus and the first came out heavier in the balance.

They've believed mass vaccination will solve the problem well before public runs out of patience with the rolling lockdowns/restrictions policies, or the ECB runs out of road for buying up government debt.

Given potential delays to vaccination and evidence emerging that virus is perhaps not as stable to mutation as was hoped, it is looking more likely they got this wrong.

Tenzor07

fly_agaric wrote: »

In fairness it is more than the cultural Irish "ah shure" attitude to rules and plans.
At the core of all this is the thorny problem of moving to impose authoritarian measures on a very free society where people & businesses are accustomed to doing what they want, and the state takes a very light hand.
It is a problem for all liberal, democratic societies in this crisis.
Government here (like rest of Europe) decided this crisis is not quite serious enough to effectively move to a war footing & start to force unpleasant measures on the population to attempt to eliminate the virus so we had "living with Covid" plan here etc. and many government "recommendations" with little enforcement..

Ah the Irish, the joke of Europe is it then?

So we should take a few pages from the books of the PRC or the DPRK? Those guys really know how to look after an unruly populace...

I guess imposing "Stay at home" orders across the EU population of 448 million people, Curfews, border closures, testing requirements isn't harsh enough for some people...

fly_agaric

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ah the Irish, the joke of Europe is it then?

So we should take a few pages from the books of the PRC or the DPRK? Those guys really know how to look after an unruly populace...

I guess imposing "Stay at home" orders across the EU population of 448 million people, Curfews, border closures, testing requirements isn't harsh enough for some people...

My post was the opposite message really.

We are not the joke of Europe, we have the same "problems" here.

The rest is just, well a sort of argumentum ad Hitlerum (using CCP and North Korea instead of Nazi Germany).

Yes, what has been done already is harsh, but key pieces are voluntary (as I'm sure you're keenly aware given I think you oppose most of it) and it has not worked.

maestroamado

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well, get ready for even harsher penalties if found to be traveling to the Airport without having reasonable ground to do so...

https://www.independent.ie/news/much-stricter-sanctions-for-breaching-5km-travel-limit-on-the-cards-warns-ryan-40007810.html

i wouldn't have too much faith in Mr Ryan.
I was on a plane a couple of Months ago from Dublin.
More than half of the passengers were from NI.
This was before mandatory testing here and testing in NI.
He was missing from his desk for awhile...

Tenzor07

fly_agaric wrote: »

My post was the opposite message really. We are not the joke of Europe, we have the same "problems" here.
The rest is just, well a sort of argumentum ad Hitlerum (using CCP and North Korea instead of Nazi Germany).
Yes, what has been done already is harsh, but key pieces are voluntary (as I'm sure you're keenly aware given I think you oppose most of it) and it has not worked.

Well anyhoo, the opposite of restrictions being voluntary is for the state and its security forces to take control and impose Wartime style Martial law and curfews etc. which I am sure many people would welcome....

Tenzor07

maestroamado wrote: »

i wouldn't have too much faith in Mr Ryan.
I was on a plane a couple of Months ago from Dublin.
More than half of the passengers were from NI.
This was before mandatory testing here and testing in NI.
He was missing from his desk for awhile...

Ah the poor guy must be exhausted from all the work he does... :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/green-party-leader-eamon-ryan-caught-sleeping-during-dail-vote-39374326.html

saabsaab

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well anyhoo, the opposite of restrictions being voluntary is for the state and its security forces to take control and impose Wartime style Martial law and curfews etc. which I am sure many people would welcome....

It may come to that but hopefully not. The vaccines if rolled out soon enough and enough should sort it. Until then non essential flights should stop.

faceman

Danno wrote: »

Thank you for the well reasoned reply, I don't have time right now to respond to each point - I hope to do so later this evening or by midweek.

Just one point really quick: The above piece I have quoted from your response - The virus doesn't care about positive psychology. Humans carry the virus, to time to treat humans like the virus: remove all opportunities it to spread.

The Irish people living here are sick of rolling lockdowns - we get the numbers down and once opened back up again there seems to be another variant arrive here off the back of a flight. See my linked news articles above - I thought I laid this out in my timeline above quite well.

We are trying to empty the bathwater of Covid19 in Ireland, first job should be to turn off the taps (incoming virus and variants). Only when the taps are off is it fair to ask the Irish public to go again and drain the bath via stringent lockdowns.

Just to clarify what I mean by positive psychology - its how we influence the behaviour of people

dok_golf

Does anyone know, who pays for the quarantine in the hotel for these travellers?

Gradius

China, by all right.

Ireland, by all wrong.

wheresthebeef

The traveller pays. Assume it’ll be a fixed price negotiated by government with the hotel to include the cost of security, meals etc...

TheCitizen

Why has the Irish government been so slow to introduce quarantine at airports. By all means try to to get the Brits to do the same so that the Unionists in the North are prevented from playing silly politics with it but that should not stop us quarantining at our own ports. Also everyone should be quarantined not just Brazil and S Africa.

Our government seems to have lost control of this in a big way since December.

dobman88

dok_golf wrote: »

Does anyone know, who pays for the quarantine in the hotel for these travellers?

Mandatory quarantine at the travellers cost

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1353814855002828800?s=19

Damien360

wheresthebeef wrote: »

The traveller pays. Assume it’ll be a fixed price negotiated by government with the hotel to include the cost of security, meals etc...

Did that deal with City West ever happen? It was discussed very early on.

Let's say someone arrives and do we also transport that person to the hotel? Or do they get a taxi? So now you potentially have another person with the virus.

Are these people under arrest? If not, will they get a free lawyer to sue the state when they refuse to abide by this instruction or is it law?