What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118025714#Comment_118025714

Re: Undermining the legitimacy of democracy

From what I’m reading, it’s only yourself is attempting to undermine democracy when you disagree with the outcome.

Re: Your observation that I am the victim of intensive propaganda

It doesn’t appear to have occurred to you that I may not even unconsciously absorb the modern mainstream media narrative, that my views regarding multiculturalism (which I regard as the existence of multiple cultures in any given society), have been formed on the basis of my own experiences of having been raised in a culture which I regard as stifling, rigid, and a representation of the lack of freedom of people to exercise their right to self-determination?

Re: The possibility that you might be the victim of intensive propaganda and the notion of a fertility crisis

You’re right, I won’t find anything in mainstream media which explains your opinions, but you didn’t get them from nowhere, and I figured for a while that maybe you were a member of our defence forces or the Gardaí who had done a few tours abroad and witnessed some horrible shìt, but when you came out with those statistics I couldn’t ignore the distinct whiff of Gript off the way you phrased it -

https://gript.ie/irish-births-down-6-4-in-2020-huge-drop-of-25-in-over-ten-years/

https://gript.ie/the-handmaids-tale-and-our-own-fertility-crisis/

Re: Sinn Fein

Yep, it’s fair to say that anyone voting for Sinn Fein is also voting for mass immigration, but if we also take your own fair point that democracy grants legitimacy to Governments that broadly represent the wishes and interests of the general population, the outcome is still the same as I suggested earlier - Sinn Féin’s rise in popularity is surely a demonstration that people are voting with their own self-interests in mind, not yours or anyone else’s, which is the epitome of democracy in action.

I don’t want to see Sinn Fein in Government, I don’t support their leftist, socialist policies or their attempts to be all things to all people, because I think it will lead to a nation even greater dependent on a Welfare State than we are already, and when the money dries up we’ll be like the Danes pointing fingers at immigrants as though they’re to blame for us not being a prosperous little Island nation any more. It won’t be immigrants fault that Sinn Fein, much like previous Governments, has no idea how to integrate (not assimilate) immigrants into Irish society, and the best they could come up with was to spend horrific amounts of money to try to keep them out of sight of the general population.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018172#Comment_118018172

Just tried looking up the police stations in malmo. Reports of gun and bomb attacks against main station....cannot use street view to see it as the building is all blurred out .... suspect to make it dificult to plan attacks....must look like a 1980s RUC station

https://worldcrunch.com/special-series/terror-in-europe-1/norway-attack-terrorism-mental-health

The bow-and-arrow murder of five people in the small Norwegian city of Kongsberg this week was particularly chilling for the primitive choice of weapon. And police are now saying the attack Wednesday night is likely to be labeled an act of terrorism.

Still, even though the suspect is a Danish-born convert to Islam, police are still determining the motive. Espen Andersen Bråthen, a 37-year-old Danish national, is previously known to the police, both for reports of radicalization, as well as erratic behavior unrelated to religion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027051#Comment_118027051

There are 3 year old videos of him pledging allegiance to Islam online. His gun was taken off him 1 year ago because of threats against his father. I suspect once the call on police radio went out, half the uniform officers and all the detectives guessed it was this guy

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974234#Comment_117974234

Let's put this into perspective Migrant crime in Sweden has soared .

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12115-019-00436-8

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118026092#Comment_118026092

When policies permitting or encouraging mass migration are set by a government completely at odds with the views of the electorate, then it is the government that is undermining its own democratic legitimacy. For an Irish example, the Greens have spent much of their time in government attempting to cynically undo the very clear rejection of birthright citizenship by Irish voters in the last referendum.

As regards you being immune to mainstream media: I guess all those billionaires, governments, NGOs and corporations who spend so much on controlling mass media narratives are the fools because it has completely no effect, right? You just believe and regurgitate the exact same establishment talking points, but that is just entirely coincidental, completely unrelated to to the media they pay for.

As for your guesswork on where I got my views: The (wholly mistaken) conclusions you jump to betray the media narratives you've absorbed. Disagreement with mass migration = violent/dangerous/authoritarian = military or law enforcement. As for Gript, I've never heard of the site tbh, and from the front page it doesn't seem interesting.

Re Sinn Fein support: People vote for what they perceive their interest to be. People are not self interested rational actors. Most people are not well informed actors in the political sphere anymore than they are in the economic sphere. 38% of registered Irish voters were not motivated to vote for anyone in the last General Election. Of the 62% who votes, I think only a tiny, tiny fraction actually read and objectively evaluate the manifestoes of all the parties and independents. So they vote on media fuelled perceptions of politicians and parties.

Sinn Fein trade on the militant Irish nationalist violence of the 20th century. They sell merchandise celebrating Irish nationalist violence. The excuse and defend without reservation any atrocity carried out by militant Irish nationalism. The mainsteam media reinforces this. So your average uninformed voter might be taken in by the claim that they prioritise the interests of the Irish people - support of violence of course giving them a credibility that civic Irish nationalism can not match. But voters taken in by that perception are being deceived. Sinn Fein is ludicrously for mass migration, which is inherently against the interests of the Irish people. If they manage to fool voters, that doesn't suddenly grant them democratic legitimacy to carry out policies against the interests of their voters. A conman isn't absolved of guilt because his story fooled his "investors". The idea that it does is why governments are undermining their own democratic legitimacy. Increasingly, people are spotting that their government isn't representing their interests which leads to mistrust and dissent.

What you have to ask yourself is why you continue to advocate for mass migration when you acknowledge that governments dont know how to integrate or assimilate migrants, with the best hope being huge money being spent to create ghettos. So even you know there is no positive outcome possible. So why continue to agitate for a policy which is wholly against the interests of the indigenous people? You've come up with your own ideas - no one gave them to you - so explain it.

Lemon Davis lll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974225#Comment_117974225

Uniformed Swedish Police have openly shared their concerns on Newsnight, who have produced a couple of very balanced reports on the issue of immigrant crime (and the coverage and perception of it) in the likes of Stockholm and Malmo

https://youtu.be/ORl7l-7_YMQ

https://youtu.be/dzeb92-rPwI

rgossip30

I am still trying to find out if Turas Nua/Community Service Employment

figures are added to the live unemployment figures??

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046926#Comment_118046926

That’s a bit left-of-field for this thread, but no, they’re not. I’m not saying the entire purpose of CE schemes is to massage the unemployment figures to make it appear as though they are less than they are in reality, but that’s certainly one of it’s effects 🤨

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043973#Comment_118043973

Wow, stunning large figure and for a country with a population only slightly bigger than Ireland. No wonder they are tightening their borders and processes so much.

Their taxpayers must be seething to see such waste but at least now they can see some light at the end of the tunnel and the beginning to the end of mass migration policies that they've had to endure for the last two decades.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045887#Comment_118045887

The police in those videos stated facts, no hysteria. I didn't see them sharing concerns about immigration?

Interesting viewing thanks

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045321#Comment_118045321

Your point about a Government undermining the legitimacy of the democratic process by making decisions which it knows are unfavourable among the electorate is the difference between a representative democracy, and a direct democracy - by your understanding, the decision taken by Government to introduce new taxes or to raise existing tax rates is a Government undermining democracy. In reality it’s no such thing. Our political leaders who are democratically elected form a Government which represents our interests as a nation. It’s why up to a couple of weeks ago, I’d forgotten the Greens even existed, never mind even being unaware of their position on immigration.

With regard to my position on immigration and it being coincidental that my opinions coincide with the opinions of billionaires and Governments and so on manipulating mass media - I’m not going to argue against the idea that it IS a coincidence, seeing as we’re coming at it from very different viewpoints. It was religious mass manipulation which informed my opinions, and you won’t find too much of that in modern liberal mass media. The reason I don’t really bring it up, and try to frame my argument in a more secular context is because I’m thinking you’re likely to say “Oh fcuk, he’s one of those!” 😂

But it’s because I don’t have any issues with religion that I don’t have any issues with Islam either. Your guess as to where I got my views is far wider of the mark than my impression (which was wrong, clearly!) - Gript have plagiarised your homework which was informed by a CSO report. You don’t provide a source for the report, still haven’t, but if it’s the one I’m thinking of, it’s a report which was commissioned by the CSO, written by people who are unlikely to share your views on immigration which informs your rather curious interpretation of the data -

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-plfp/populationandlabourforceprojections2017-2051/appendix3-expertgroupmeetingsandmembership/

It’s a fair point you make about a politically apathetic electorate, but to suggest that people are informed by mainstream media and that people are not self-interested rational actors, ignores the reality that people have been curating their own perceptions of reality for at least the last decade - fuelled by social media, as opposed to mainstream media. That’s how billionaires became, well, billionaires - it wasn’t because they imagined people were altruistic, it was because they fed peoples egotistical thinking - the idea of themselves at the centre of their own universe, surrounded only by people who reinforce their beliefs.

It’s precisely for this reason that Sinn Fein had to dial back on their nationalist rhetoric down south, because it doesn’t appeal to the majority of people who don’t particularly care much either for nationalism, or for immigrants. Anti-immigration rhetoric appeals to a tiny, tiny fraction of the electorate, and they are represented by the likes of the Nationalist party. It’s YOUR view that immigration isn’t in the interests of Irish people, but the Irish people themselves have other more pressing and immediate concerns than the idea of a great replacement of Irish indigenous/native population at some at some point in the next millennium.

I don’t need to ask myself why I continue to advocate for mass migration when I’ve never advocated that position in the first place. You acknowledged as much when you correctly observed that I’m ambivalent about multiculturalism and immigration. I said as much myself earlier in the thread when I pointed out that there is nothing inherently good or bad about multiculturalism, but that Governments policies with regard to immigration so far have been poor. It’s clear from evidence so far that successive Governments the best idea they came up with was to continue to isolate immigrants from the general population, until the situation became untenable and a different approach was required. The money wasn’t even spent on creating ghettos, it was spent on creating poorhouses, and I’m sure I don’t need to explain the effects they had on Irish society and why I am opposed to them? It’s why I thought it was a good idea to allow asylum seekers and refugees to apply for work permits in order to gain employment as one means of integrating into Irish society. Integrating refugees and asylum seekers into the local community is also something I think is a far better approach than the idea of what was called direct provision -

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Irish_Refugee_Protection_Programme_%28IRPP%29

I’m fully supportive of any initiatives by which immigrants can provide for themselves, as opposed to being provided for poorly by the State.

Does anyone have any links on the current status of the State of Emergencies that were declared due to illegal immigration by Poland, Latvia and Lithuania in the last couple of months? Are the state of emergencies still in place?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118055295#Comment_118055295

they are still holding the line

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118055581#Comment_118055581

Good to hear, it's hard to get any accurate information and statistics on the current state of affairs, although I have read that even Merkel isn't happy with the situation, will wonders ever cease 😀

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118048522#Comment_118048522

I have had a number of e mails on this with the CSO and they avoided the question . The reason being is that I have seen claims that Ireland needs more foreign workers ? How can the employment numbers be greater now than before Covid ? Likewise unemployment was higher .

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-lfs/labourforcesurveyquarter22021/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118056321#Comment_118056321

The most obvious explanation that immediately comes to mind is that in the last two years some employment sectors experienced unprecedented growth, while other employment sectors experienced a significant shrinking effect. There weren’t enough qualified people could be got to fill the gaps in areas which experienced growth, so employers had to look abroad for suitably qualified personnel with the effect that the figures for employment increased, while the figures for unemployment also increased.

People have had almost two years to reskill, or gain new educational qualifications... That's going to change the employment market. Simple enough.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118056551#Comment_118056551

This would appear to be the case . I guess covid related jobs increased . In the link below scroll down to Table A3 and see unemployment sept 2019 = 183,783 and compare sept 2021= 162,161 . They claim to have included the PUP payments . The number on the PUP at present is 93,399 why is it lower now , massaging of figures ?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-lfs/labourforcesurveyquarter22021/

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118056770#Comment_118056770

I’m on mobile* so I can’t see the tables, but it gives some explanation alright as to how they calculated the figures in the section on ‘Covid-19 Supplemental Analysis’ -

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-lfs/labourforcesurveyquarter22021/covid-19supplementalanalysis/

I don’t think the CSO were massaging the figures so much as they were working off having to make a lot of estimates.

*tbh I can only use the mobile site, I looked at the new desktop site once… holy shìt 😳

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118049016#Comment_118049016

Re: Undermining of democratic legitimacy. You're straw-manning. It is not the difference between direct or representative democracy. It is not a false choice between reckless populism (ending mass migration) or tough but necessary (encouraging mass migration) decisions. It is governments pursuing policies which have no democratic legitimacy and which do not represent the best interests of the nation. They fail on both tests.

Re: Your religious views. You speak as if religion is a monolith which has not itself been reshaped and reformed by media narratives. Official Christianity these days is little more than a NGO trying to shrug off the embarrassing baggage of the Bible. I'd note a couple of points though: 1) Jesus sacrificed himself for others. He did not sacrifice others for his own beliefs as do advocates of mass migration. 2) When God wished to punish and destroy an overmighty human civilisation he cursed them with diversity.

I don't particularly have any issues with Islam either for the record. I know a lot of the contributors to the thread do focus on Islam, and criticise it as if the issue was Islam, and mass migration would be okay if they were all libertarians. I don't because I view it as incidental. The issue is mass-migration against the interests of the indigenous people, not what the migrants believe.

Re CSO report: The reason I like referring to "establishment" information sources like the CSO is because they are written by people who hold wholly different views to me. Hence their bias if anything works to my advantage - the alarming stats can only be read as deliberately obfuscating the real situation.

Re politically apathetic electorate: I'll just step over the self defeating claim that "the reality [is] that people have been curating their own perception of reality". People are not well informed, self interested actors. Else we would not have drug addicts, or alcoholics, or medically obese people. People can be presented with all the information, yet make decisions against their own self interest. As you yourself highlight with the concept that the indigenous Irish people will become a minority in their own homeland within the next millennium - I've given you the information and you still think its somewhere off in the realms of science fiction.

Re you not advocating for mass migration: If you're not advocating for mass migration, then why object to a prevention of mass migration? You claim you're ambivalent on mass migration so why be worried if mass migration is prevented? Mass migration, no mass migration - it is all the same to you, right?

Forgive me for thinking your claimed ambivalence is just tactical, to avoid having to justify mass migration.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118056899#Comment_118056899

Playing with the PUP figures .

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118059898#Comment_118059898

I’m not gonna go over everything that’s already been established Sand, we’re not likely to find any agreement on the main point of contention either, but I figured if you at least understood where I’m coming from it might dispel some of those ideas you have which is somewhat of an ironic position given your point about lack of trust earlier. It does stand to reason though that you don’t trust people who don’t trust that you have their best interests in mind, regardless of whether they’re native/indigenous or otherwise.

I’m quite aware that religion, any religion, isn’t a monolith that isn’t subject to change over time, because it’s passed down through people, who invariably put their own spin on it, and that can either be a good thing or a bad thing. For me growing up, it was used as a punishment, cruel and unforgiving, and I knew there was a disconnect between the way it was being practiced by some people, and the way that it was written. Their behaviour is what made me question the whole idea, similar to the way in which you questioned the data from the CSO report based upon your perception of how it was written.

We would have drug addicts, homeless people and alcoholics regardless of whether they had all the information or not. I should know, I was all three 20 years ago before I ever became medically obese following a decade of living an alternatively unhealthy lifestyle 😂 But seriously though, I do understand where you’re coming from, and where I’m coming from is that I acknowledge the fact that other people do not share my vision for society, they have their own world views and beliefs and values and indeed culture.

If you think about mass migration in terms of religion, apart from the fact that religions don’t concern themselves so much with geographic and political sovereignty as much as imagining that everyone belongs to a kingdom depending upon your religious persuasion or none, then there are people who are ambivalent to immigration in the same way as there are people who are ambivalent to religion - they don’t care much for the idea one way or the other. These are not the same people as people who are anti-theists, or anti-immigration.

I don’t care much for anti-theists either, but I do wonder about people who are anti-immigration, especially those people who wouldn’t be out of place in Nostradamus’ time predicting all sorts of doom and gloom as if it were an inevitability at some point in the future, like in the way, way off distant future. Chances are their predictions are at least likely to be more accurate than the chances of Jesus making a comeback, but like I said earlier - people have more immediate and pressing concerns in the meantime, and the idea that your predictions are something they should be concerned about just don’t actually register all that high on their priority list above people who are homeless, drug addicts, alcoholics, or indeed asylum seekers and refugees. I don’t imagine there are all that many people who are concerned about people who are morbidly obese, with the lockdowns we’re not as visible in society, but I still get out for a daily waddle to try and get my weight down because I’m aware of the more immediate health implications. The implications of mass immigration at some point in the far off distant future though? Not so much.

rgossip30

I guess this will only encourage others 4 days hunger strike for leave to remain .

https://www.joe.ie/news/nadim-hussain-hunger-strike-734005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061361#Comment_118061361

Hmm hunger strike for 9 days and in hospital. Hmm has pancreatitis, hmm treatment of pancreatitis includes bowel rest, hmm main causes of pancreatitis are too much alcohol, gallstones. Hmm had to flee because parents died. Hmm also had to flee intercommunal violence which is usually muslim mobs attacking non muslims hmm is he facing jail in india? Hmm. India is a big place. Hmmm. Pakistan and bangladesh are next door. Deport please

TLDR : the illness he is being treated for(pancreatitis), is treated with fasting(among other things). He is not on hunger strike.

The_Kew_Tour

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061361#Comment_118061361

If his story is true and he be some prick to make that up than I don't have a problem with him staying as I think anyone coming here in fear for their life deserve status here.

I do think his story is true and happy see him stay.

Mad_maxx

Multiculturalism is a key tenet of progressive left politics.

It's so ingrained as an article of faith that nobody ever dare ask .

Why we must support or even desire it in the first place ?

In truth there is nothing wrong with opposing it yet not one mainstream party in Ireland does

corks finest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118045321#Comment_118045321

You’re correct ref SF( ex shinner here)

they worry more about the popoulist vote than national interest, policies have drastically changed for the worst in my personal opinion,

they bow to Europe first and foremost and will grab a huge young vote next time out , long term they’re bad for the country but short term to stop the FF/G monopoly I’ll certainly give them my vote , know it sounds mad but we need to shift Leo and MM ASAP , i foresee FF being a junior coalition partner to SF and independents

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061526#Comment_118061526

They don't need to - and can't act against it.

As members of the European Union, we are compelled into freedom of movement - so there is no political reason why any party here would voice against it.

The only alternative is that a mainstream party turns Eurosceptic, and that will never take root here.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118061707#Comment_118061707

Freedom of movement for EU citizens , unless you want to advocate for it worldwide .