What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999027#Comment_117999027

Well, I'm glad you acknowledge the mass migration policy of European governments has been made without the support of the various European peoples - indeed in the face of clear opposition - but the next question you need to ask yourself is why such policy is made, if Europe is democratic? If Europeans are against mass migration, if migrants are not welcome - then why do European governments create the conditions for mass migration?

Mass migration fails because mass migration as a rule it can only fail from the perspective of the indigenous people. Migration can be assimilated. Mass migration - by definition - cannot. Great cities with incredible cultural value and GDP output fuelled entirely by migrants and their descendants may now exist throughout America where once there was nothing but simple huts or nothing at all, but that is a cold comfort to the indigenous Americans who can only hang on to the shadows of their former traditions, culture and homelands in reservations.

I never accused you of being the victim of an enlightened ideology. I said you were the victim of intensive propaganda, which tells you that advocating for high risk, dangerous and illogical policies against the interests of your own nation demonstrates you are enlightened and high status. That you were so confused as to summarise this statement as me accusing you of being the victim of an enlightened ideology just reinforces my point. As for the propaganda I draw my conclusions from - it is a CSO report.

The rest of your post is meandering nonsense which can be best judged by how badly wrong the initial arguments were.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999138#Comment_117999138

Thats not why they went. Invading places for their own use under the cover of bringing freedom.

Point is its not all one way. We sent armed criminals.

People moving to the west are the working classes taking advantage like any of us would in their position. And have done historically and still do. We have illegal immigrants in the states and Australia.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999286#Comment_117999286

What's not credible? That I know people from other countries and lived overseas?

did you not make friends 😞

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995334#Comment_117995334

If the tables were turned, at best we would be living under the equivalent of a penal law system, at worst would be enslaved(in all but name), just like the poor lads from poor countries building the massive stadiums in Qatar. Every local family would have an Irish domestic servant to use and abuse instead of the current filipino or Ethiopian

vriesmays

My view on multiculturalism is that the more who come here the less they'll integrate.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997424#Comment_117997424

Far left loonies like PPP and Socialist Party went as far as taking seats in the Dail so maybe some balance might be beneficial.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997755#Comment_117997755

The progressives like all zealots require a bogeyman.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999245#Comment_117999245

I don’t need to ask myself that question at all, because I know already that the answer is that Ireland is a representative democracy as opposed to a country like Switzerland for example which is a direct democracy, which would be more like what you imagine Ireland should be, but in in reality it isn’t. That’s why I keep saying that the electorate elects our public representatives whom we imagine will represent our interests. Depending upon your own interests, representative democracy is either a good thing or a bad thing. In your previous posts for example you refer to “the elites” who I took to mean the people with the power to make decisions which affect the direction of Irish society.

It’s also in that context I took it that you were referring to me as the victim of intensive propaganda, which it’s only logical to presume has to be coming from somewhere? If not the people who consider themselves the enlightened, or the elites, then whom? And if that’s not an ideology which promotes mass immigration, then who do you imagine is responsible for this intensive propaganda which you claim I’m a victim of that means I would advocate against the interests of my own nation just so I too could be seen as one of these enlightened elites who I’m still not sure whether or not are responsible for the the intensive propaganda you speak of. It’s condescending on a few different levels tbh, not least because it means that anyone who doesn’t share your perspective is referred to as a victim of intensive propaganda perpetuated by the elites who you’re portraying as taking a dump on their own people. It’s why you so easily dismiss the rest of my post where I explain my motivations, as nonsense, because it doesn’t jig with your narrative you’ve built up in your own head. No matter what I say, it gets filtered through your narrative that I’m a victim of a propaganda campaign by the elites. It just isn’t possible in your mind that I was actually capable of forming an opinion of my own. I’m not the most eloquent in how I express my opinions, it’s true, but that doesn’t mean I’m incapable of thinking for myself, and that in fact I’m not the victim of any intensive propaganda whatsoever. I get it - I’m just reinforcing your point again.

As for the propaganda you are attuned to (since you’re being unnecessarily picky), the CSO report you’re possibly referring to makes no mention of any “fertility crisis”. Why would it when neither of the statistics you quoted were indicative of any sort of crisis? I’m still fairly certain the conclusion of a “fertility crisis” isn’t something you came up with yourself, since I’m assuming you understand what 77% of anything means, and you’re aware that the fertility rate and replacement is calculated as a projected figure from the birth rate in any given year. It’s not so much about maintaining the existing population as it is an indication of the level at which a population would replace itself in the long term (like say over a period of 30 years), without factoring in immigration.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-plfp/populationandlabourforceprojections2017-2051/

You also made the point about how Government appears to be ignoring this “fertility crisis” and are obsessed with an artificial “housing crisis”, and asked what makes up the demand for houses in a country with less than replacement fertility? Well, the fact that the population is expected to grow is what makes up the demand for housing, and it’s not just immigrants who are creating the demand, it’s the fact that the population will experience a natural growth as life expectancy in Ireland has been steadily increasing for a number of decades now and we have the current situation where people are unable due to the rising costs of living in Ireland, to afford their own homes, and some people are even moving back in with their parents. It’s why I did a double take at the suggestion in the poll earlier that 50% of what was considered representative of the Irish people who were asked the question, imagined that €200 - €300k for a home was considered affordable! The lack of housing is also what’s limiting immigration, with it being difficult to find suitable accommodation at a more reasonable cost in urban areas like Dublin where one third of the country’s population live. The Government plan on addressing this in their 2040 plan -

By 2040 the population of Ireland is expected to reach almost 6 million with a need for 550,000 more homes and the creation of 660,000 additional jobs to achieve and maintain full employment. The need to provide in excess of half-a-million more homes over the period to 2040 corresponds to a long-term trend of 25,000 new homes every year. A higher level of output is needed in the short- to medium-term to respond to the existing deficit that has given rise to the housing crisis.

The continuation of existing patterns of development accentuates the serious risk of economic, social and environmental unsustainability through, for example, placing more distance between where people work and where people live, and increasing energy demand.

The NPF highlights the urgent requirement for a major uplift of the delivery of housing within the existing built-up areas of cities and other urban areas. It has a particular focus on brownfield development, targeting derelict and vacant sites that may have been developed before but have fallen into disuse.

https://assets.gov.ie/19240/62af938dce404ed68380e268d7e9a5bb.pdf

I’m assuming that when you refer to how bad the initial arguments were, you weren’t referring to the fair amount of odd assertions in your own previous posts which I attributed to your being attuned to propaganda which supported your already held beliefs about the effects of mass immigration, multiculturalism and so on, based upon evidence of it’s apparent failure in other countries which are very different societies by comparison to Irish society. It’s precisely for this reason that Sinn Fein are gaining in popularity by portraying themselves as “the party of the people” offering a change from “the elites” who people feel don’t represent their individual interests, even though Sinn Fein are decidedly pro-immigration -

Sinn Fein is also distinct from other populists on immigration. For right-wing populists, immigration dilutes the national character and threatens the inherited culture of a society—even left-wing populists tend to oppose immigration as a way of protecting domestic jobs. But Sinn Fein is decidedly pro-immigration; it regularly makes its progressive and multicultural views known, and anti-immigration rhetoric has never formed part of the party narrative, even when weighed against its strong adherence to Irish nationalism.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/14/ireland-elections-sinn-fein-populism/#:~:text=Sinn%20Fein%20is%20also%20distinct%20from%20other%20populists,immigration%20as%20a%20way%20of%20protecting%20domestic%20jobs.

Anyone who believes their nonsense propaganda and votes accordingly isn’t a victim, they’ve willingly chosen of their own free will to stick two fingers up to “the establishment”, thinking that the people they elected to represent them, have their individual interests in mind.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000252#Comment_118000252

I absolutely agree with this. When numbers are small, the new arrivals are so outnumbered that they have no choice but to integrate and become part of the new culture.

However when large groups arrive, they tend to cluster together and form parallel societies. Like happens in the North of England in old mill towns in Lancashire/Yorkshire - Bradford, Rotherham, Rochdale etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006006#Comment_118006006

Times have changed. With the importance and accessibility of social media, and other technologies, there's little pressure on anyone to integrate anymore, never mind, that you can find shops run by your cultural/national group, and avoid Irish people altogether.

It's not that hard. I did it in China for years until I made a serious effort to pick up the language and mingle with others... however, I know plenty of people who have lived there for years, and haven't done much beyond their immediate circle of friends. And that's in a country that's more difficult/intolerant towards foreigners. For immigrants in Ireland, it would be quite easy to avoid integrating if they wanted their lives to be that way.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006219#Comment_118006219

What are they integrating into? Irish people are thin on the ground in a lot of circles in Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006264#Comment_118006264

Ahh well, I've previously spoken about the dilution of Irish culture, and I'm not going to rehash those points again. In this case, i was taking my line from others posts, and using that as the basis for a response.

tdf7187

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997755#Comment_117997755

FF, FG, Labour, the Greens and (post 1994) SF are all right wing parties in that they support the neo-liberal pro-big business capitalist system. The differences between them are simply hair splitting. It is true that there are currently no significant mainstream conservative traditionalist anti-multicultural parties in the ROI. There is certainly nothing for the section of the electorate who are left of centre economic issues and traditionalist on social issues.

Parachutes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006294#Comment_118006294

Economically they may be centre or centre-right at a push but socially they are very liberal.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006294#Comment_118006294

Perhaps Aontu ?

My mother is socially right but very left economically , kind of person who used to vote FF , she votes for Aontu now

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997424#Comment_117997424

Yes and you are always championing the members of the largest growing right wing movement in this country, muslims.

Anyone that seriously analyses muslims that take their religion anyway seriously can only come to one conclusion that they are extremely right wing in social outlook.

Of course you will do your usual shytetalk about conservative catholics, but yet totally ignore how much very conservative catholics have in common with even moderate muslims.

Even worse islam has the more conservative fundamentalist adherents, which is probably fastest growing branch of islam over recent decades, that would be akin to catholics in 14th century Spain rather than Justin Barrett and his ilk.

And please don't give us some shyte about how there are no real fundamentalist muslims in Ireland when the muslim brotherhood have been based in Clonskeagh for years.

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009144#Comment_118009144

Where do you find these hardcore Irish Catholics? I'm not jesting, I'm completely serious. I know they exist, but I've rarely meet one in my life. Even most older Catholics that I know aren't very strict; they often support gays rights and abortion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009216#Comment_118009216

You can find them just about anywhere in Ireland, although in my experience, they're far more likely to be represented in the rural areas. I have a variety of family members who would fall into this kind of hardline religious grouping, and they're not supportive even slightly of anything that deviates from traditional Ireland and the values/beliefs of the RCC.

Still.... they all vote FF.. because they've always done so, just as their parents did. This is what you'll find with the traditional types... they won't be out voting for the new parties, but will stick to the parties they've previously voted for.. and that's often dependent on traditional geographical loyalty.

Which is why all these claims about the far right are such a joke. Any support that they're likely to get will be coming from our young people, and those middle aged, who have become so dissatisfied with the mainstream parties. Even then, though, the numbers are likely to be low considering the support that SF receives. There would need to be a drastic change to how people view the parties for "the far right" to gain any kind of traction, and even then, I seriously doubt that many of the Irish electorate would be able to stomach such a stance, at least one that reflected the viewpoints of the far right abroad...

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009934#Comment_118009934

RE. "The all vote FF because their Parents did" I'm not so sure about that being the case as much nowadays, if the results of the last GE are anything to go by. Lots of the "old reliable's" took 4th, 5th, 6'th and 7th. counts to get in. And for sure, no one in FFG are looking forward to the next GE, when ever it will be held. The times they are a changing.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009144#Comment_118009144

The mistake people make with Islam is that the majority think of it as just a "Religion" with the same definition of any other "Religion", but it's more. Much more, Islam controls every facet of a practicing Muslims life,, from the time he wakes up, until he / she goes to sleep again. And this is what separates it from other Religions, especially where Sharia law is in play.

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011364#Comment_118011364

You never met my old aunt Lena the nun.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011392#Comment_118011392

Oh, I met much worse than your old Aunt Lena, the Nun. I met her brothers !!! And for many years too, but even at that, they were not all of them the bad bastards that they were made out to be.....unfortunately, too many were. But that time is long gone now, Thank God.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011364#Comment_118011364

But it’s no different for a practicing Christian (and within Christianity there are denominations the same as there are sects and sub-sects in Islam), same as there are plenty of Muslims who don’t take their faith seriously, there are Christians who are liberal, conservative, progressive, etc.

Even where Sharia IS in play, how it manifests itself can vary greatly depending upon a number of factors, because it’s manifestation is influenced by culture and politics and attempts to maintain traditions or revive traditions that had died out as a sort of a return to the old ways when things are presented as being morally superior to the new ways or influences brought about by changes in any society.

Parachutes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118008374#Comment_118008374

Maybe Renua also. Even parties that are considered economically right wing in Ireland would be considered left wing by international standards.

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011457#Comment_118011457

Yeah! Definitely not all bad. Laffs.

I mean, in the case of my old aunt Lena, long gone, her discourse was totally peppered with excessive religiosity. It was just as damning as a river of swear words.

jmreire

Yes, there is various "branch's" and interpretations of Christianity just as there are of Islam. But nowhere can you find in Christian teaching the blood and death passages that are to be found in the Quran and Sharia Law. And while its very true that its a not all Muslims who are engaged in these atrocities, its still legal within Sharia Law. And that is the reality, does not matter which Islamic sect follows their own interpretation of the Shar. Just ask isis, taliban, al-quaeda, al-shabab etc. They are all firm believers too.

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011792#Comment_118011792

The old testament is full of that stuff. You want incest, fratricide, infanticide, torture of all kinds, you’re more than welcome to all of it in the old book.

In spite of what we think is a brotherly love admonition from christian societies, we have witnessed a feast of violence wreaked on some muslim countries that had nothing to do with 9-11, but all to do with petroleum, and a prolonged deployment of weaponry that fuels a huge part of the US economy.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011792#Comment_118011792

They must be fairly bloody and gory if they can outdo some of the crackers in the Bible 😁

I can’t say because I know nothing of the Islamic texts, but I doubt they diverge all that much from Christian texts which are choc-a-bloc full of all sorts of blood and death and genocidal atrocities. There are plenty of verses in the Bible where killing is justifiable by virtue of being either commanded to do so by God, or sanctioned by God -

The Bible And Genocide

“This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ “

1 Samuel 15:2–3

The Old Testament serves as a laundry list of the worst crimes humanity can commit, up to and including genocide. These atrocities are often justified, or even commanded, by God. It’s no surprise, then, that people invoke the book to rationalize the widespread murder of others.

Europeans quoted the above verse to excuse the murder of Native Americans. Catholics and Protestants have each quoted it in their violence against the other. Preachers quoted it to support the 1994 genocide in Rwanda. Some Christians are still quoting it today to teach that the murder of men, women, and children is the righteous reaction to disbelief in God. And they’re teaching it in US schools.

The Good News Club is a project of the Child Evangelism Fellowship, which provides after-school Bible study classes to around 100,000 American schoolchildren each year. The teachers’ instruction manual for the lesson on the verse says teachers should make it clear that genocide was justified because “the Amalekites refused to believe in God, and God had promised punishment.” Teachers should also make clear that King Saul was wrong to stop short when “he kept the king and some of the animals alive.”

Taken from here:

https://listverse.com/2014/03/20/10-religious-verses-used-to-justify-terrible-atrocities/

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012036#Comment_118012036

You got it 100% right when you mentioned "all to do with Petroleum and arms sales." And that has absolutely nothing to do with religion,,, do not be in any doubts about it,, but if say Ireland ( for example) suddenly discovered massive quantities of (insert name of current priceless and dwindling commodity ) under ground, would be treated any differently??? If the Govt could not be manipulated to their way of thinking, that a good reason to overthrow them would not be found? Control of assets and wealth is the real religion for these people. And that knows no boundary's.

Sure the Old testament contained all of the horror stories you mentioned, but then 2'000 years ago, Jesus arrived and changed all of that to the new, everlasting and final covenant between God and Man. He specifically removed all the eye for an eye, chopping off of hands and feet, stoning to death for adultery, throwing gays off tall buildings etc. Then 6oo years later, Mohammad, after having visitations from the Angel Gabriel, introduced Islam, which is based for the most part on the old testament. And it is still in use in Islam today, and cannot be changed, ever because it is the word of God, and only he can change it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010436#Comment_118010436

I meant in relation to the hardline catholic types, who will stick to those parties they've always considered representative of their values. Just used FF as an example, because they are who my own extended (nutty) family tend to go for.