What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Firish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517

cant be prosperous without going extinct apparently.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993146#Comment_117993146

Yes, I must have read somewhere, there is no way I came to that conclusion myself after listening to hiphop from my early teens up to close to my middle age crisis :) But I'm not going to defend it any longer (or even listen to for that matter), especially since hiphop turned into face tattooed garbage clown music.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993663#Comment_117993663

Except large scale immigration (per the opening paragraph of the article) isn't a requirement for us to remain prosperous... since we've turned to technology, and the economy is far more reliant on services (along with R&D), than it is manufacturing, agriculture, or whatever. Even our existing manufacturing base isn't labor intensive, more reliant on machinery and skilled operators.

It's taking the needs of larger nations with long standing (historical) requirements for a large labor force, and pushing the same needs on to Ireland... and it makes little logical sense. It's easily avoided..

The current population along with natural population growth (along with natural immigration) would be enough to continue a modern economy absent the political gestures of a class based system, and the pushing of agendas to ensure support for those groups. Like in the US or Italy where manufacturing is propped up in areas where it was traditionally established, but has since lost competitive/market advantage/relevance... and so, further immigration is needed to maintain the labor supply for a range of industries, that are becoming more and more irrelevant or inefficient as time goes by. All the while such employment is no longer capable of providing a reasonable standard of living within that State, nor are the companies involved cost effective in a modern sense (look at business closures and unemployment in Spain and Italy). It's a range of logic that guarantees serious social unrest and instability, even without the problems of immigration and differing cultures clashing.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969275#Comment_117969275

There is a fair amount of odd assertions going on here. If immigrants were not welcome in the countries they were immigrating to, they would not be allowed to immigrate. Yet they were permitted - so either they were welcomed, or the mass migration policy set by European governments is not made with the support of Europeans generally. Pick one. Immigrants seek out "their own people for safety and support" because that is what all people do, including the indigenous people - hence the flight from diversity and the increasingly kafkaesque top down efforts to enforce it against the wishes of everyone involved. The reason multiculturalism has been a dismal failure in other European countries is because mass migration was permitted by European governments - there is no successful mass migration policy because the term itself is an oxymoron.

Ireland's experience of mass migration is even more rapid than other European countries, not less. 1 in 5 of Irish residents were born abroad. This does not consider the descendants of those people which were born in Ireland. So in less than 30 years, the Irish could have shrunk to just 3 in 4 of the population of their own nation-state. The CSO reported than in 2020, just 77% of babies were born to mothers of Irish nationality. The proportion born to ethnic Irish mothers would be even less than 77%. The same CSO report found that Irish fertility dropped to 1.6, far less than the 2.1 required to maintain the existing population. Yet the Irish government ignores this fertility crisis amongst Irish people, and is instead obsessed with solving the entirely artificial "housing crisis" by building more houses (entirely contradictory to the claimed environmental aims) despite there being less and less Irish people to live in them. What makes up the demand for new houses in a country with less than replacement fertility? Mass migration by non-Irish people into the Irish homeland.

As for not suggesting a Star Trek utopia, what other argument is there for mass migration? Why should Irish people gamble with the future inheritance of their descendants by opening up their homeland to mass migration if not for some promised utopia? Even you sound unconvinced of any potential benefits, whereas I can point out the negative consequences.

Ultimately, what you present is you place zero value on Irish people or their future. You think it makes you seem enlightened and high-status to support high risk, dangerous and illogical policies like mass migration. This is not your fault - you are the victim of an intensive propaganda campaign. But it really is the equivalent of trying to persuade people to douse themselves in petrol and light a match...what are they afraid of, right?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974003#Comment_117974003

This is a key statement. In the minds of advocates of open borders, the issue is not mass migration. The issue is the indigenous people who are reluctant to surrender their homelands to waves of mass migration. So the indigenous people becomes the enemy of their own government, media and business class.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995267#Comment_117995267

Nope. It's just a factual statement.

kind of like this statement; the rise of the far right in Ireland, is far scarier prospect then any immigration.

Parachutes

Do you think if the tables were turned we would be allowed to move to Syria or Afghanistan, have our entire existence subsidised by them and also allowed to live in Irish ghettos where we continued to live exactly the same way we lived in Ireland?

Seriously doubt it for some reason.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995281#Comment_117995281

The rise of mass migration in Ireland far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far...[repeat to infinity]...far exceeds the rise of the "far right" in Ireland. But thanks for confirming my initial statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yy6Kn5gVh4

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/details-of-proposal-to-raise-state-pension-age-published-by-ministers-1195911.html

Migration hasnt prevented the retirement age going up

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2021/1007/1252390-housing-crisis-gaeltacht/

another fun one - "The in-migration of non-Irish speakers is also contributing to the fall in the proportion of Irish speakers living in the Gaeltacht. Just like An Rinn, this is an issue in Conamara (Connemara), the largest and most populous Gaeltacht.

"There is certainly a problem with estates being built in Gaeltacht areas which attract in young families and a lot of children who are not Irish speakers going to the local schools," said Donncha Ó hÉallaithe, a Gaeltacht community activist from Conamara.

"All in one bang, you could change the language of the community quite dramatically. And that's something that has to be guarded against."'

................imagine RTE or the Irish Times running an article warning of the dangers of people from a different culture arriving into an area? And those new arrivals threatening the existence of the long term inhabitants?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995347#Comment_117995347

It may exceed it, it is far less dangerous however.

riddles

The affordability of the old age pension is an ongoing discussion. The affordability and ease of Ongoing access to welfare is not- why?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995389#Comment_117995389

Well, thanks for acknowledging that the rise of mass migration is far greater than the media scare story of the "far right". It does beg the question of why the media focuses dismisses one, while amplifying the other. I would consider however that mass migration is far more dangerous to the indigenous population than is the so called "far right". When it comes down to it, the "far right" amounts to some of the indigenous population politely expressing the view that mass migration into their own homeland may possibly be not in their own interests.

The rise of the far right turning out like 1930s Nazi Germany sounds far fetched. It has happened before so it would be prudent to be wary.

Its not any less likely that a country in Europe could shift demographics to a ratio that led to the disastrous genocidal wars in Lebanon and, if we want an example in Europe, the former Yugoslavia. So why is it wrong to be wary of that?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996185#Comment_117996185

Yep - the blind spot advocates have is that they would consider the entirely predictable reaction to mass migration to be the problem. Not the mass migration that they themselves create. Everyone can point to the inter-ethnic mess of Yugoslavia, or the post colonial borders of the Middle East and Africa which ignored ethnic realities and wonder how did the planners fail to spot the obvious conflicts to follow. Yet the highly educated, enlightened and high status ideology is to create the same ethnic division within European countries. What else could follow, except bitter conflict?

It would be black comedy without the avoidable and grim atrocities against the indigenous people that have followed. In this very thread, one of the prime cheerleaders for open borders begged me not to draw attention to the inter-ethnic atrocities because it was too disturbing for them to contemplate. Yet, despite that, their fervour for open borders remains undimmed. No one can suffer too much for the utopia of open borders, least of all the innocent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996178#Comment_117996178

It's an extension of the adoption of foreign interests and concerns. Ireland doesn't have and has never had a serious far right movement. At best it's a watercolored religious conservatism with some nationalism added in. Some dabbling with racial superiority, but few Irish would be able to resist laughing at the idea of Irish people being racially superior.

The far right in Europe and the US, has a long established history through nationalism, and racial/cultural superiority. In Europe, they're a threat because we've been going through an extended period where socialism and socialist leaning political parties have had the most influence. The far right being their ultimate boogeyman, who actually exist within their borders. With Ireland though... we don't. It's a boogeyman for our socialist leaning parties because they've adopted the fears, and scare tactics of our European neighbors. The Nazi's will come and take over. Meh. Smoke and mirrors to distract the general population from the failures and corruption of the political parties.

The far right are no threat to Ireland. Unless we want to consider the range of immigration from Eastern Europe or S.America who are more likely than Irish people to appreciate the beliefs of the far right. But I guess that wouldn't mesh with the desire for more immigration.

Actually, I have to laugh when I hear about the fears regarding the far right, especially when it comes from advocates of mass immigration. Where do the majority of those immigrating to the west come from? Africa, M.East, and S.America. All are continents where center-right and right wing political parties are commonplace and widely popular. With Africans tribalism is a definite factor, which pushes a degree of superiority based along racial lines, and the M.East has a wide range of peoples who believe in their superiority along religious lines. A honest consideration of non-western nations, will notice that the "Right" is very popular throughout the world, in one form or another, and what? All these immigrants are coming to Europe because they don't agree with such considerations? Can people really be that naive?

We have a native population that is resistant to right wing beliefs... but that should be diluted with peoples who have a long history of supporting/enabling right leaning politics?

Unfortunately, there are many far right groupings in Ireland at the moment, and they are increasing in size.

A worrying development.

Kaybaykwah

Eric Zemmour, a very highly visible TV personality, political commentator and polemicist is about to enter the presidential race in France. He has been advocating very restrictive immigration measures, and radical policies favo(u)ring assimilation. One of these is to bring back a policy that states children should bear French/European first names. He is considered more to the right of Marine LePen, and has a slight advantage in the polls. He has been sounding the demise of France for a long time especially as it relates to the invasion of Muslim and African populations, who he deems incompatible with French culture and republican ideals. He is also, in his latest polemics stating that Petain saved the Jews in WWII, and wants to unite the right wing parties to effectively oppose the Left and Center forces.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997568#Comment_117997568

He said that Petain gave up Foreign Jews in France to save French Jews, which is a bit different but equally controversial. Worth noting that he is a Jew and the son of Algerian immigrants, and has already outstripped LePen in polling. What the French establishment are really afraid fo is that he's driving the agenda and making cadidates nail their colours to the mast on issues they'd rather not touch

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997613#Comment_117997613

Yes, he is a North African Jew, who grew up in the same suburbs that are now the target of his ire. He certainly has given a bigger window of opportunity for those who restrained their opinions on the subject of nationality. The mostly left leaning media are cornering him into that section of his Political preoccupations, and of course he complains about that, but he doesn’t have a team yet, nor a programme to speak of.

Parachutes

The “Far right” in this country is so minute it’s not even worth talking about. We don’t even have a major political party that is right wing or centrist, no matter how they describe themselves. Fine Fail and Fine Gael are left wing, Labour and Sinn Fein are far left.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997424#Comment_117997424

If a few hundred or so racists in a country of over 5million have you worried, i feel sorry for you.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997568#Comment_117997568

Been reading up about Zemmour recently

Comes across as eminently reasonable for the most part

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997802#Comment_117997802

Their worry is nearly always performative. We know who wields the axes in this country, and they aren't far right, so to me, it's pure deflection: "Look over there at those evil Nazis" who've zero effect on policy, all while their own side is passing devastating legislation left right and centre.

Kaybaykwah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998003#Comment_117998003

Well, a lot of what he goes on about is grounded in fact.

There really are “territoires perdus de la république”, where there indeed are thousands of cars burnt to a cinder on New Year’s eve for the better part of thirty years now. The banlieues of many majorcities have progressively been taken over not only by a disturbing populace, but to gangsters that have become top apparatchiks of council governments. The latter have hardened the attitudes of the anti-social, anti-republican elements. The council jobs were handed by mayors in very weird tractations meant to buy the peace. France is in a very awkward juncture.

My son had a Belgian girlfriend visit us last month who told us that she doesn’t feel like she is living in “her” country anymore. She works as a social worker with problem immigrant youth, and so is rather more aware of the situation.

Then, a week later, I listened to a two-part series on France Culture radio channel about Belgium’s King Léopold’s personal empire in the Congo. There was a segment about how the native Congolese were punished for not harvesting enough rubber from the plantations by severing their hands, or the hands of their children. All this was part of the colonial recipe for a well managed success.

What goes around, comes around, in a very big way.

Sand

Eric Zemmour at a superficial level seems a sensible option for the French. But surely its telling of how things have gone in France - and by extension Europe - that the saviour of the French people, the only one willing to defend them, is an ethnic North African? Is no ethnic French person willing or able to speak in their own defence and that of their children? Or must migrants do the jobs the French are unwilling to do themselves?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998578#Comment_117998578

Re: What goes around, comes around...

Imperialism has certainly been a poisoned chalice, but it hasn't been an trade off with mass migration/globalism. Mass migration is a policy - not an inevitable consequence or a law of nature. At its height, imperialism benefitted the elites at the expense of the lower classes who suffered most, and gained least as minimum wage footsoldiers and functionaries. In the present day, imperialism has been made obsolete by globalism, but it is still the elites who benefit and the lower classes who suffer most - the British schoolgirls who were targeted, tormented and raped by the imperial leftovers were not the daughters of the UK elite. Imperialism made sense for the UK/French/Belgian elites then. Globalism and mass migration makes sense for the UK/French/Belgian elites now. It is chosen policy, not a morality tale.

But it is true to say that post-imperialist European countries have been left most vulnerable to mass migration. Ideologically, the British and French find it hardest to identify their interests of their own people as being separate to the interests of the long dead empires. Which leads them to some really dumb conclusions, such as an Englishman thinking he has more in common with an Indian or a Frenchman believing the same of an African than they do with each other. To their mutual detriment.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998954#Comment_117998954

For balance we must mention western forces raping and murdering their way through the middle east.

What happened to Afghanistan was a colluded form of imperialism.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979280#Comment_117979280

I meant to come back to come back to this earlier than by now, but honestly I’d been thinking about it and I still can’t get my head around your thinking at all. Between yourself and @Sand you speak of “the enlightened ones”, but there’s nothing particularly enlightened about treating people as equals on the basis that we’re all human beings. It really doesn’t get any more basic than that. Our freedoms and rights didn’t come about through fighting, they came about through dialogues and discussions that were the basis of both Western and Christian philosophy. It’s often a mistaken belief that civil law was borne of religion, but it was actually the other way round. In Ireland you’ll probably have heard of Brehon law, which predates Christianity, and would be considered progressive even by todays standards. You asked how Ireland came about? That’s how. No force involved or any of the rest of it -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

I know you said you have enough cop on that you imagine you could reason with an IRA or a Basque terrorist where you couldn’t reason with an Islamic terrorist, but they wouldn’t be engaging in terrorism if they could be reasoned with, so I’m a bit lost as to why you’d even make the distinction, as though you imagine someone willing to kill for an ideology would spare you on the basis that you’re a sound skin really, g’wan, you get a pass… as though they could possibly be placated!

I’m honestly just stumped as to how you could possibly think such a thing, let alone the idea of placating terrorists, while at the same time condemning people you see as pissing in the tent. I’m trying to put it all together and it just makes no sense. The fact that you’d piss your pants and kiss arse while at the same time complaining about people who won’t stand with you suggests that I would be foolish to imagine I, or anyone for that matter, could possibly trust you to provide protection.

I’m fortunate enough that I don’t need your protection. I’m also not in the habit of placating or negotiating with terrorists in any circumstances, though I sincerely doubt it would ever come to that. That’s not arrogance, it’s confidence, as opposed to being controlled by paranoia and fear that I would ever need to defend myself against an invented enemy. Tbh mate you just sound like a fella that’s spoiling for a fight, and anyone will do, doesn’t matter whether they’re Irish or foreign or anything else, because your conception of a “way of life” that has to be defended ultimately by force is only an excuse to start a fight. It bears no relation to any way of life I’ve ever lived or the concept of a “way of life” I would wish on anyone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995158#Comment_117995158

Of course they would be allowed immigrate to the countries they immigrated to, that doesn’t have anything to do with whether they’re welcome or not. I don’t have to pick one when you’ve already pointed out that both statements can be true - Governments do indeed make unpopular decisions, and the people who elected them will often feel as though their individual interests aren’t being served.

Mass immigration has been a dismal failure in other European countries not because of European Governments permitting mass immigration. It’s been a dismal failure because the people who elected Governments were just as resentful of actually having to live up to their ideals as everyone else. It’s easy be idealistic if your ideals are never actually challenged.

You’re maintaining that I’m somehow the “victim” of some enlightened ideology (I tried to think of any occasion before I’d been accused of being enlightened, couldn’t think of any tbh 🤔), but I’m fairly certain you didn’t come up with that “fertility crisis” idea all by yourself. It’s undoubtedly the product of whatever propaganda you’re attuned to, though I don’t buy the notion of a housing crisis either.

My argument against the idea of being against multiculturalism or mass immigration is a pretty simple one that’s as old as humanity itself - I see it as a moral obligation to provide assistance to people in need. We have plenty, and there’s no doubt there’s plenty of room for plenty more people in Irish society. I just don’t make any distinction between the indigenous population as you put it, and the non-indigenous population. It doesn’t make anyone any less Irish to be charitable.

My way of thinking is rather the opposite of what you’re suggesting - that I place no value on Irish people or their future. In terms of how I raised my own child for example, I’ve always taught him the value of giving, over hoarding and assuming the worst in people. It’s not a risk when he has so much that it would’t hurt him in the slightest to give to other people who have nothing, and it’s neither dangerous nor illogical - it’s how a society flourishes, as opposed to the idea of hoarding something for fear of being deprived of anything.

That’s not to say I don’t get what you’re afraid of, I do - the Irish native indigenous population being in a minority in their own homeland. It strikes me as somewhat unusual then that given you’re of that particular belief, you wouldn’t be front and centre defending and supporting the decisions of the few Irish women who are bringing up the numbers of Irish natives, so to speak 😏

It’s as though your concerns for the Irish indigenous population only come up when they’re a useful argument against mass immigration, those natives and indigenous population who agree with your ideas at least, which I don’t imagine exist in any great numbers, certainly not in sufficient numbers to present a credible threat to the Irish society you’re so keen to protect while condemning Irish people at the same time for not adhering to your ideals for Irish society.

Parachutes

Do you honestly think said people would help us if we were in need?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999011#Comment_117999011

More globalism than imperialism. 19th century imperialists were not fighting for Afghan girls to have access to liberal educations or teaching the population that toilets were actually high art. British involvement in Afghanistan in the 21st century and Afghanistan in the 19th century was both times for the interests, benefit and morality of the British elite, and at the bloody cost of the British lower classes who lost lives and limbs in conflicts that did not and could not ever benefit them.

This is what I meant - mass migration/globalism is not a balancing of the books for imperialism. It is a simple continuation of the same old story. The elites continue to reap the benefits. The lower orders continue to bear the costs.