Sunday Independent - Sinn Fein

Truthvader

LuasSimon wrote: »

You really are mad?? or else your Nigel Dodds or some other Unionist .....what were the people of Tyrone , Armagh etc supposed to do ??..lie down to the Loyalists and British and be treated like third class citizens??

When the British were in Dublin we fought them , cant understand why we find it strange people in other parts of Ireland would fight them ??...its not their island , fullstop. The same way Ireland shouldn't have control over Cornwall, Devon etc...

Your so right - even though the majority in Norn Iron want to be English/British or whatever sure they're protestants so they don't count.

All those teenagers with broken legs or the hooded boys lying in border ditches murdered, those persuaded to starve themselves to death for Uncle Gerry, young girls burnt to unrecognition in random pub bombings etc etc etc Solved everything. We showed them!

smurgen

Truthvader wrote: »

Your so right - even though the majority in Norn Iron want to be English/British or whatever sure they're protestants so they don't count.

All those teenagers with broken legs or the hooded boys lying in border ditches murdered, those persuaded to starve themselves to death for Uncle Gerry, young girls burnt to unrecognition in random pub bombings etc etc etc Solved everything. We showed them!

You sound ridiculous. Such was the treatment of Catholics in the North that the actual government of Ireland looked into a temporary invasion with the idea of evacuating them on mass. Have a read and educate yourself as to how bad conditions were:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

Truthvader

smurgen wrote: »

You sound ridiculous. Such was the treatment of Catholics in the North that the actual government of Ireland looked into a temporary invasion with the idea of evacuating them on mass. Have a read and educate yourself as to how bad conditions were:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

Really? Not sure why you think this fantasy is relevant.

Either you think random savagery solves anything or is justified or you dont. I dont. You think it was all worth it and all justified. I think your wrong.

Truthvader

Truthvader wrote: »

Really? Not sure why you think this fantasy is relevant.

Either you think random savagery solves anything or is justified or you dont. I dont. You think it was all worth it and all justified. I think your wrong.

Its entirely relevent

Your unease at acknowleging,how bad the situation was that it decended into civil war is quite noticible.......

Noone got up one morning and decided to bomb/shoot their way through 30 years of mayham (despite what the indo tells you).....but someone did exploit historical sectarian fears/tensions entirely for political gain and is now looked upon a moderate (ian paisley,anyone who thinks rethoric is harmless,should look at what he was upto since the tricoluer protests of the late 50s)


If you ignore your past,your doomed to repeat it

StackSteevens

LuasSimon wrote: »

When the British were in Dublin we fought them ,

Bullcrap - a handful of fanatics fought them, the vast majority couldn't have been bothered. If the Brits hadn't shot the ringleaders, then the 1916 uprising would have been a complete flop.

Truthvader

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its entirely relevent

Your unease at acknowleging,how bad the situation was that it decended into civil war is quite noticible.......

Noone got up one morning and decided to bomb/shoot their way through 30 years of mayham (despite what the indo tells you).....but someone did exploit historical sectarian fears/tensions entirely for political gain and is now looked upon a moderate (ian paisley,anyone who thinks rethoric is harmless,should look at what he was upto since the tricoluer protests of the late 50s)


If you ignore your past,your doomed to repeat it

Well confident my knowledge of history is better than yours. No-one is denying that the six Counties were an unjust and unsustainable disaster for Catholics and for working class catholics in particular. A thirty year campaign of death and thuggery has achieved what? Protestant working class areas are abandonned to Loyalist Criminal gangs and Catholic areas to their local Sinn Fein thugs. Not convinced it is any better for either side. A sad waste of life and love. The bad guys won. Paisley and McGuiness. "The chuckle brothers" . And well they might laugh

LuasSimon

Bottom line we should have never agreed to a divided island . We should have all stayed under British rule or have had a full island ireland . There would never have been any troubles or whatever else if we had one or the other .

Truthvader

LuasSimon wrote: »

Bottom line we should have never agreed to a divided island . We should have all stayed under British rule or have had a full island ireland . There would never have been any troubles or whatever else if we had one or the other .

Well we agree on that

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, yes, that is what the IRA did, fully supported by Sinn Fein, as Mary-Lou made clear at the weekend.

there was more than the IRA involved - they werent fighting themselves. watch that oul high horse there. you tend to fall off it quite a lot.

padd b1975

McMurphy wrote: »

She seems to be making the same progress as the rest of them are, despite leo relishing opposition.

**Scratches beard**

Any more letters from RBB reminding her that's she's supposed to be negotiating?

Zebra3

piplip87 wrote: »

Members of the US government or US forces are not trying to win votes in Ireland. The same cannot be said for Provos.

Imagine Martin Ferris as minister of defence or Pauline Tully minister for justice ? These people supported an organisation that killed Gardai and prison officers.

Imagine FF, FG or Labour in power as they let the RC church kidnap women to use as slave labour in their gulags.

Oh wait, that actually happened.

Strange how none of these victims were ever brought out before a GE and those parties made to explain themselves.

Amazing that nobody who had their family blown to pieces by US terrorists with the support of FF,FG and Labour were brought out and allowed explain their loss and have those parties explain themselves and their complicity in war crimes.

markodaly

Zebra3 wrote: »

Amazing that nobody who had their family blown to pieces by US terrorists with the support of FF,FG and Labour were brought out and allowed explain their loss and have those parties explain themselves and their complicity in war crimes.

Ill give you an A+ for effort there, in shoe-horning American Foreign policy and leaving it at the door of FF/FG/Labour (basicly anyone but SF)

But we can all play that game.

Here is Sinn Feins' Chris Andrews with War Criminal Assad.

Truthvader

markodaly wrote: »

Ill give you an A+ for effort there, in shoe-horning American Foreign policy and leaving it at the door of FF/FG/Labour (basicly anyone but SF)

But we can all play that game.

Here is Sinn Feins' Chris Andrews with War Criminal Assad.

Ah now. Poor old simple Chris. I'd say he had no idea who he was meeting. Anyway he's already arm and arm with the likes of Dessie Ellis and the crew. How is he supposed to know which murderers are the good ones all the time?

Truthvader

maccored wrote: »

there was more than the IRA involved - they werent fighting themselves. watch that oul high horse there. you tend to fall off it quite a lot.

Actually it turns out that most of the time they were fighting themselves. Stakeknife happily going about his work while Uncle Gerry hovered in the background. Not to mention all the unremembered Catholics murdered by Sinn Fein IRA for whatever they decided to find them guilty of from time to time . And of course the likes of Robert McCartney or Paul Quinn murdered just because ...….that's what they do

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Ill give you an A+ for effort there, in shoe-horning American Foreign policy and leaving it at the door of FF/FG/Labour (basicly anyone but SF)

But we can all play that game.

Here is Sinn Feins' Chris Andrews with War Criminal Assad.

Tbf to.assad...he may be murdering bastard,but he has faced down isis and won

They pissed through iraq,where american trained and equipped iraqi army literally left their posts and ran away at sight of isis.....at least syrians (and kurds)stood up for emselves

jmayo

LuasSimon wrote: »

You really are mad?? or else your Nigel Dodds or some other Unionist .....what were the people of Tyrone , Armagh etc supposed to do ??..lie down to the Loyalists and British and be treated like third class citizens??

Fair enough in the 1960s, 1970s, even early 1980s, but they just kept it going.
And for what?
They still did not get their united Ireland.
Hell they ended up in government with Paisley FFS.

They turned into just a fancy criminal organisation.
Otherwise try and explain where killing Gerry McCabe, Paul Quinn, Robert Macartney comes into freeing Ireland from the British ?

smurgen wrote: »

You sound ridiculous. Such was the treatment of Catholics in the North that the actual government of Ireland looked into a temporary invasion with the idea of evacuating them on mass. Have a read and educate yourself as to how bad conditions were:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Armageddon

Ehh that was 1960s.
Was Ireland going to invade in the late 80s or the 90s?
Were Catholics still refused the vote in the 1980s?
Were Catholics still refused public sector jobs in the 1990s ?

Yes I agree the IRA/PIRA did have a time, but they just kept going in a futile so called war that really in the end achieved nothing that hadn't and couldn't be achieved much earlier with less loss of life.
Of course they spin it that they brought peace (yeah right) and that they achieved something special.
Note how the dissidents still keep going because they see that as a sham.

Granted that fooker thatcher definitely didn't help and if there had been a better leader in the UK then it could have helped end it much earlier.

maccored

Truthvader wrote: »

Actually it turns out that most of the time they were fighting themselves. Stakeknife happily going about his work while Uncle Gerry hovered in the background. Not to mention all the unremembered Catholics murdered by Sinn Fein IRA for whatever they decided to find them guilty of from time to time . And of course the likes of Robert McCartney or Paul Quinn murdered just because ...….that's what they do

then it was the brits fighting themselves and you're barking up the wrong tree.

Jinglejangle69

Does fighting the Brits justify

Robbing post offices
Killing gardai
Kidnapping innocent people for money
Kidnapping horses
Kneecappinng kids
Diesel smuggiling
Hiding child sexual abusers

The list goes on.

Does fighting the Brits justify all those acts?

FrancieBrady

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Does fighting the Brits justify

Robbing post offices
Killing gardai
Kidnapping innocent people for money
Kidnapping horses
Kneecappinng kids
Diesel smuggiling
Hiding child sexual abusers

The list goes on.

Does fighting the Brits justify all those acts?

Nothing that goes on in any war/conflict is justified JJ.

I think most reasonable people can see that northern Ireland eventually and inevitably went up in flames because of how it was being run. The simple fact of history is that the people reacted and once you allow that to happen it is next to impossible to put out the flames.

I am thankful and eternally grateful to those who worked to put the flames out and that includes the party being vilified here.
Yes they have stuff to be ashamed of and stuff to answer for, but all sides do too.

Calahonda52

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Does fighting the Brits justify

Robbing post offices
Killing gardai
Kidnapping innocent people for money
Kidnapping horses
Kneecappinng kids
Diesel smuggiling
Hiding child sexual abusers

The list goes on.

Does fighting the Brits justify all those acts?

Are most of these still not occurring?

christy c

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nothing that goes on in any war/conflict is justified JJ.

I think most reasonable people can see that northern Ireland eventually and inevitably went up in flames because of how it was being run. The simple fact of history is that the people reacted and once you allow that to happen it is next to impossible to put out the flames.

I am thankful and eternally grateful to those who worked to put the flames out and that includes the party being vilified here.
Yes they have stuff to be ashamed of and stuff to answer for, but all sides do too.

I'd broadly agree with that, and would have respect for people like Martin McGuinness in what were very difficult times. Luckily, I was well away from the troubles, but speaking to people who lived through it would give you the shivers.

I would have put Gerry Adams in the same bucket as MMcG, but unfortunately his election here was based on completely idiotic economic policies, which IMO would make any of our problems since look minor. Thankfully the electorate had the good sense to keep him out during those crucial years.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nothing that goes on in any war/conflict is justified JJ.

I think most reasonable people can see that northern Ireland eventually and inevitably went up in flames because of how it was being run. The simple fact of history is that the people reacted and once you allow that to happen it is next to impossible to put out the flames.

I am thankful and eternally grateful to those who worked to put the flames out and that includes the party being vilified here.
Yes they have stuff to be ashamed of and stuff to answer for, but all sides do too.

If N.I. had been run from 1920 onwards the same way that Wales Scotland and England were with equal access to housing, education, employment and local councils there is every chance the North would have settled down to be a sleepy backwater. Looking at the basketcase that the Republic economy was would not have encouraged any demand for unity.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nothing that goes on in any war/conflict is justified JJ.

I think most reasonable people can see that northern Ireland eventually and inevitably went up in flames because of how it was being run. The simple fact of history is that the people reacted and once you allow that to happen it is next to impossible to put out the flames.

I am thankful and eternally grateful to those who worked to put the flames out and that includes the party being vilified here.
Yes they have stuff to be ashamed of and stuff to answer for, but all sides do too.

And we're off! "We've all suffered etc etc...….."

I am not "thankful and eternally grateful" to Gerry Adams and his Merry men for eventually abandoning a sick and useless campaign after 30 years when they were thoroughly beaten and compromised in a trade off with the thugs and conspirators on the other side to divide power and run their own little empires- which apparently they cannot even manage

Agreeing not to kill people at random (though they still retain the right to kill you if they really want you dead) in a sick trade does not make you a "peacemaker". It makes you a sociopath who "won".

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

And we're off! "We've all suffered etc etc...….."

Everybody did..undeniable fact of history and an inevitable consequence of conflict/war.

I am not "thankful and eternally grateful" to Gerry Adams and his Merry men

I am and I am also grateful that an assembly of like-minded men and women from all sides sat around a table and ignored the naysayers and those who would prefer war/conflict to swallowing hard and admitting that there was wrong on both sides and putting in place a vision for a shared future.
They didn't 'ignore' it and sit back moralising from the higher moral ground.

blanch152

jmayo wrote: »

Fair enough in the 1960s, 1970s, even early 1980s, but they just kept it going.
And for what?
They still did not get their united Ireland.
Hell they ended up in government with Paisley FFS.

They turned into just a fancy criminal organisation.
Otherwise try and explain where killing Gerry McCabe, Paul Quinn, Robert Macartney comes into freeing Ireland from the British ?



Ehh that was 1960s.
Was Ireland going to invade in the late 80s or the 90s?
Were Catholics still refused the vote in the 1980s?
Were Catholics still refused public sector jobs in the 1990s ?

Yes I agree the IRA/PIRA did have a time, but they just kept going in a futile so called war that really in the end achieved nothing that hadn't and couldn't be achieved much earlier with less loss of life.
Of course they spin it that they brought peace (yeah right) and that they achieved something special.
Note how the dissidents still keep going because they see that as a sham.

Granted that fooker thatcher definitely didn't help and if there had been a better leader in the UK then it could have helped end it much earlier.

The terrorist campaign was never justified in my opinion, but once Sunningdale happened, there was no possible understandable rationale for it. Before that, I can understand why some people were silly enough to be taken in by the IRA, but after that, there is no understanding possible of the people who continued the campaign.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The terrorist campaign was never justified in my opinion, but once Sunningdale happened, there was no possible understandable rationale for it. Before that, I can understand why some people were silly enough to be taken in by the IRA, but after that, there is no understanding possible of the people who continued the campaign.

Sunningdale failed for the exact same reason the statelet failed. Unionist belligerence and British supported refusal to give parity of esteem and equal rights to Irish citizens.

It would be another 20 years before the British copped on to their responsibilities and delivered the Anglo Irish Agreement...delivered btw, not because of any belief in the rights of all, but because they thought the SDLP were about to be eclipsed by Sinn Fein and they would have to concede more.
And concede more they did with the GFA and the string of apologies for their actions - from Bloody Sunday to internment and more no doubt.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sunningdale failed for the exact same reason the statelet failed. Unionist belligerence and British supported refusal to give parity of esteem and equal rights to Irish citizens.

It would be another 20 years before the British copped on to their responsibilities and delivered the Anglo Irish Agreement...delivered btw, not because of any belief in the rights of all, but because they thought the SDLP were about to be eclipsed by Sinn Fein and they would have to concede more.
And concede more they did with the GFA and the string of apologies for their actions - from Bloody Sunday to internment and more no doubt.

Have to agree with you there re Sunningdale, though I think you are wrong about British support. The Brits wanted nothing to do with Norn Iron and would have sunk it under the sea and forgot about it if they could.

Think all posters agree;

1. Northern Ireland was a vile prejudicial dump for Catholics in 1969
2. The Unionist/Protestant majority could not be persuaded to offer a fair society
3. The Civil Rights movement were beaten off the streets by Unionist thugs supported by a biased RUC followed by a campaign to ethnically cleanse Norn Iron of Catholics
4. The British Government sent in troops to protect the Catholic population from mobs and local state forces

Agreed?????

Thereafter the various posters part company. On one side there are people like me who believe that an indiscriminate campaign of murder and thuggery was not only unnecessary but has not actually produced a better society for either side and left a legacy of criminality and thuggery that continues to this day on both sides of the border

On the other side are those who think the "armed struggle" was worth it and justified and that the world is a better place for it. And that people who are viewed by those supporters of the paragraph above as sociopathic criminals are in fact international statesmen and peacekeepers.

Fair enough????

Zebra3

markodaly wrote: »

Ill give you an A+ for effort there, in shoe-horning American Foreign policy and leaving it at the door of FF/FG/Labour (basicly anyone but SF)

But we can all play that game.

Here is Sinn Feins' Chris Andrews with War Criminal Assad.

It's nothing to do with American foreign policy and is about the policy of FF, FG and Labour supporting America's war crimes. But you don't want to discuss these crimes and their victims.

Do you want me to post a photo of Irish leaders shaking hands with the various hangmen of Riyadh from down the years?

I noticed you also dodged talking about the support FF, FG and Labour gave to the RC church with regard to their kidnapping and slavery.

Only some Irish victims count, I guess.

FrancieBrady

Truthvader wrote: »

has not actually produced a better society for either side

Have you lost the run of yourself with that one?

The north is un-recognisable now for a nationalist from what it was.

The simple fact of the matter was that Sunningdale and those involved in it's failure and the attempt to impose a settlement without everyone involved in it, made the problem worse and more intractable.

It was another 20 years before the British were made to realise that everyone had to be at any table that negotiated a settlement.
They simply were not going to allow that at the time of Sunningdale.

The failure to recognise that everyone had to be at the table was the tragic mistake, it was never going to go any other way but into bitter war/conflict.

There was nothing only Unionist belligerence that was stopping the British from delivering what was in the GFA in '39 '49 '59 and '69.

But they didn't and the rest is tragic history.

Truthvader

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have you lost the run of yourself with that one?

The north is un-recognisable now for a nationalist from what it was.

The simple fact of the matter was that Sunningdale and those involved in it's failure and the attempt to impose a settlement without everyone involved in it, made the problem worse and more intractable.

It was another 20 years before the British were made to realise that everyone had to be at any table that negotiated a settlement.
They simply were not going to allow that at the time of Sunningdale.

The failure to recognise that everyone had to be at the table was the tragic mistake, it was never going to go any other way but into bitter war/conflict.

There was nothing only Unionist belligerence that was stopping the British from delivering what was in the GFA in '39 '49 '59 and '69.

But they didn't and the rest is tragic history.

Well lets think about whether society in the North is better now than it was pre 1969.

Firstly rich/ upper middle class Catholics were largely unaffected by the unionist state and prospered anyway despite the injustices

Poor working class people on both sides of the divide are accordingly the point to measure

About half the population are loyalist. In 1969 they got the best public housing and the pick of the public jobs. Plus they had a reliable and accepted police force and professional system of justice. They have now lost the unfair advantages they had but in addition have been abandonned to paramiltary thugs who control the working class estates . I dont think now is better for them. Do you?

The nationalist population pre 69 lived as second class citizens in a sick society where they got the **** houses and any **** jobs the prods didnt want. There was a functional ststem of justice (as long as it did not have operate accross the divide

Now they have equality and considerable investment etc BUT again the working class estates are controlled by thugs and bullies. Cross them or disrespect them and you can be killed, maimed or banished. There is no law and no justice save what the local hard man decides suits him. Its different but is it better. It seems to me that one set of overlords have been traded for another much more cruel a capricious mob.