Golf Lockdown Discussion ** No discussion of breaking Restrictions **

opinionated3

blue note wrote: »

Have any clubs opened up their timesheets yet? Or given any indication how they plan to operate when they're allowed to open back up on 26th April? I suppose it's slightly over 2 weeks away, but I'd have expected to hear plans by now.

Think a lot of clubs are waiting on whether the nphet crowd will insist on a two households rule. If by some miracle, they didn't insist on it, it would make things a lot easier for the clubs, that's for sure.

A Shaved Duck?

opinionated3 wrote: »

Think a lot of clubs are waiting on whether the nphet crowd will insist on a two households rule. If by some miracle, they didn't insist on it, it would make things a lot easier for the clubs, that's for sure.

Yeah the 2 household rule is very difficult to understand in terms of golf, its impossible to police and doesn't really make a lot of sense as long as people travel separately.

The courses should be open now lads, the logic is so flawed.

Mantis Toboggan

Am I right in saying that the Republic is the only country in the world with golf courses closed?

If so shame on all governing parties involved.

opinionated3

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Am I right in saying that the Republic is the only country in the world with golf courses closed?

If so shame on all governing parties involved.

That is correct afaik...... And it is shameful and idiotic.

IAmTitleist

4 balls and competitions from Monday in Northern Ireland.

Sorry guys.

opinionated3

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

Yeah the 2 household rule is very difficult to understand in terms of golf, its impossible to police and doesn't really make a lot of sense as long as people travel separately.

The courses should be open now lads, the logic is so flawed.

Tbh,I believe most clubs will probably adhere to that particular rule for one, maybe two weeks tops, and then open it back up as normal when the realisation kicks in that it's unworkable and they can't keep their members happy ( who they still expect to pay full subs btw.....).

willabur

https://twitter.com/Oregonian/status/1380259108134211592?s=20

if this is true can we put to bed the risk of picking up the disease from rakes, flags etc

The risk is superlow so any action in place to mitigate the risk is simply stated an over reaction

blue note

The two household rule is for meeting up outside full stop isn't it? As in if you want to go for a walk you're allowed to do so with one other household. So the question is whether clubs will make any effort to ensure that their members are not breaking that rule while playing golf or just turn a blind eye.

I think kids can train in groups of up to 15 from 26th April and that applies to golf too.

11521323

willabur wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Oregonian/status/1380259108134211592?s=20

if this is true can we put to bed the risk of picking up the disease from rakes, flags etc

The risk is superlow so any action in place to mitigate the risk is simply stated an over reaction

There has never been any sort of significant risk associated with golf, hence why it's not closed anywhere else on the planet.

The absolute morons in charge currently don't use a drop of logic or reason when deciding measures so no amount of evidence supporting the opening of golf will affect their decision unfortunately.

opinionated3

willabur wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Oregonian/status/1380259108134211592?s=20

if this is true can we put to bed the risk of picking up the disease from rakes, flags etc

The risk is superlow so any action in place to mitigate the risk is simply stated an over reaction

Incoming from nphet to destroy that theory in 3.2,1......

willabur

11521323 wrote: »

There has never been any sort of significant risk associated with golf, hence why it's not closed anywhere else on the planet.

The absolute morons in charge currently don't use a drop of logic or reason when deciding measures so no amount of evidence supporting the opening of golf will affect their decision unfortunately.

At the start of the pandemic when so little was understood about it then restrictions make sense. Once we start to learn, from proper sources, about what is dangerous and what is harmless then not lifting restrictions on the harmless activities is just Dogma

if its not dogma then its a profound mistrust on people to understand the differences between what is dangerous and what is harmless so they go for the blanket ban approach

tayto lover

willabur wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Oregonian/status/1380259108134211592?s=20

if this is true can we put to bed the risk of picking up the disease from rakes, flags etc

The risk is superlow so any action in place to mitigate the risk is simply stated an over reaction

There were no rakes to touch, all were removed in my club as well as bins and seats. The flags were to be left in too and ball removed from the hole with gloved hand.
There is absolutely no risk from playing golf if the rules were followed and they were.
The biggest risk to people is coming from power-trippers.

RGS

We all saw NPHET poo poo the outdoor study the other day with Dr. Henry claiming there were cases in changing rooms and even dugouts.
They also brought up the usual ancillary activities that may happen as one goes to play sports: the buying of petrol, coffee etc.

Its like that want to micro manage every aspect of any activity and if there is a potential risk dont allow the activity.

The government have to take significant blame for failing to push back on the banning of non contact outdoor activities.

Even the return to play protocol issued recently is a joke. No formal competitions but handicap qualifying golf allowed.
Its clear that Sports Ireland and the expert group on sport don't have a clue about the sports they are overseeing. The alleged quiet diplomacy from golf Ireland hasn't work.

ShivasIrons

11521323 wrote: »

There has never been any sort of significant risk associated with golf, hence why it's not closed anywhere else on the planet.

The absolute morons in charge currently don't use a drop of logic or reason when deciding measures so no amount of evidence supporting the opening of golf will affect their decision unfortunately.

It's completely true that there is no risk with one person getting in the car driving from home to golf, stopping nowhere and playing on their own.



However there was a significant amount of virus transmission associated with activities related to golf around Christmas, there were transmissions in clubhouses, shared car journeys and taxi journeys.



So golf is not the problem, it was what golfers were doing before and after golf that caused issues.The solutions are no clubhouses and limit the number of households that can play together. To say that there is no logic or reason behinds the decisions is false and it shows that many are not even willing to look at the decision to figure it out and would rather just shout about how decision makers are clueless.


The other reaction is to say that the 2 household rule is unenforceable but when this is said what is really meant is 'I don't like it, so it shouldn't be enforced'. It's very easy to enforce it, which is have two balls and it doesn't have to be policed.



The next reaction is we can't get enough people around the course in 2s, but an understanding of tee time management will show that there is a difference of 20-30 golfers in the day less but they will get around the course much quicker and have a nicer experience.


A further reaction is we can't have competitions so clubs will lose out on much needed revenue, what is meant by this is 'I like the competitive side of golf and I want a scorecard in my hand all the time'. There is nothing wrong with liking the competitive side of golf but it is not necessary to have an organised competition every time some one goes out. It's also easy to have a match against your playing partner or have an informal competition with the group in front or behind etc. Not having competitions for a month will not effect the finances of any club significantly.


Finally, golf has not been treated any differently to any other sport. No mass organised sport has been allowed. There is no organised sailing, kayaking, rock climbing, javelin throwing, archery or any other outdoor sport where distancing is easy. Why should golf be different?


The approach I would have taken would have been to get the sports to show that they're safe, that distancing is easy and every measure that was there for the general population, such as no unnecessary travel outside 5k and no mixing of households, would have been adhered to and the sports themselves would have given the guarantee that the rules would have been followed and they would enforce them.


Can you imagine the shouting and roaring there would have been in the last few months if golf was open but the 5k had to be observed? Maybe all the golfers who ignored the 5k rule last May should look at themselves and see why the authorities might come to the conclusion that if it was allowed there would be too much movement of people? And widespread ignoring of restrictions would lead to others ignoring restrictions. After all we did have the highest incidence of the virus in the world at the end of December, even while there were some restrictions at the time. Drastic action was needed, some might say it wasn't harsh enough, it's taken us 4 months to get back to where we were just so we had a couple of weeks of a 'meaningful' Christmas.

RGS

Its amazing that golf only closed in Scotland for 60 or so days whereas golf in Ireland will be closed around 210 days.

Do the Scottish NPHET not realise that golfers cant be trusted or is it only irish golfers cant be trusted.
NPHET appear to look at ways to close activities whereas other countries looked at ways to open activities that are deemed safer. No activity is without risk.

Construction is the same. In most countries construction stayed open we closed it and only allowed certain Public sites re open.

Pdoghue

ShivasIrons wrote: »

However there was a significant amount of virus transmission associated with activities related to golf around Christmas, there were transmissions in clubhouses, shared car journeys and taxi journeys.

Care to put figures, specific incidents on this claim?

newport2

Pdoghue wrote: »

Care to put figures, specific incidents on this claim?

Or in addition, explain why no other country in the world sees the need to have courses closed?

PARlance

RGS wrote: »

Its amazing that golf only closed in Scotland for 60 or so days whereas golf in Ireland will be closed around 210 days.

Do the Scottish NPHET not realise that golfers cant be trusted or is it only irish golfers cant be trusted.
NPHET appear to look at ways to close activities whereas other countries looked at ways to open activities that are deemed safer. No activity is without risk.

Construction is the same. In most countries construction stayed open we closed it and only allowed certain Public sites re open.

Nphet is not the problem, it's doing its job based on the remit given to it.

The problem is a weak Government allowing nphet to run the entire show.

11521323

Pdoghue wrote: »

Care to put figures, specific incidents on this claim?

My guess is there is no evidence to support that.

That whole post is full of whataboutery.

Lip Out

Pdoghue wrote: »

Care to put figures, specific incidents on this claim?

It is the 2nd time he has spouted that nonsense and he didn't back up his claims on the previous occasion when questioned on it.

Pdoghue

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can you imagine the shouting and roaring there would have been in the last few months if golf was open but the 5k had to be observed? Maybe all the golfers who ignored the 5k rule last May should look at themselves and see why the authorities might come to the conclusion that if it was allowed there would be too much movement of people? And widespread ignoring of restrictions would lead to others ignoring restrictions. After all we did have the highest incidence of the virus in the world at the end of December, even while there were some restrictions at the time. Drastic action was needed, some might say it wasn't harsh enough, it's taken us 4 months to get back to where we were just so we had a couple of weeks of a 'meaningful' Christmas.

I remember there was a time when NPHET allowed members to travel to their clubs across county boundaries.

You really don't think people can apply common sense and safety measures themselves can you? Most sensible golfers wouldn't have been or won't be packed into a car with a load of others travelling to their club.

And how can you expect the clubs to police how people travel to and from their clubs?

h2005

ShivasIrons wrote: »

It's completely true that there is no risk with one person getting in the car driving from home to golf, stopping nowhere and playing on their own.



However there was a significant amount of virus transmission associated with activities related to golf around Christmas, there were transmissions in clubhouses, shared car journeys and taxi journeys.



So golf is not the problem, it was what golfers were doing before and after golf that caused issues.The solutions are no clubhouses and limit the number of households that can play together. To say that there is no logic or reason behinds the decisions is false and it shows that many are not even willing to look at the decision to figure it out and would rather just shout about how decision makers are clueless.


The other reaction is to say that the 2 household rule is unenforceable but when this is said what is really meant is 'I don't like it, so it shouldn't be enforced'. It's very easy to enforce it, which is have two balls and it doesn't have to be policed.



The next reaction is we can't get enough people around the course in 2s, but an understanding of tee time management will show that there is a difference of 20-30 golfers in the day less but they will get around the course much quicker and have a nicer experience.


A further reaction is we can't have competitions so clubs will lose out on much needed revenue, what is meant by this is 'I like the competitive side of golf and I want a scorecard in my hand all the time'. There is nothing wrong with liking the competitive side of golf but it is not necessary to have an organised competition every time some one goes out. It's also easy to have a match against your playing partner or have an informal competition with the group in front or behind etc. Not having competitions for a month will not effect the finances of any club significantly.


Finally, golf has not been treated any differently to any other sport. No mass organised sport has been allowed. There is no organised sailing, kayaking, rock climbing, javelin throwing, archery or any other outdoor sport where distancing is easy. Why should golf be different?


The approach I would have taken would have been to get the sports to show that they're safe, that distancing is easy and every measure that was there for the general population, such as no unnecessary travel outside 5k and no mixing of households, would have been adhered to and the sports themselves would have given the guarantee that the rules would have been followed and they would enforce them.


Can you imagine the shouting and roaring there would have been in the last few months if golf was open but the 5k had to be observed? Maybe all the golfers who ignored the 5k rule last May should look at themselves and see why the authorities might come to the conclusion that if it was allowed there would be too much movement of people? And widespread ignoring of restrictions would lead to others ignoring restrictions. After all we did have the highest incidence of the virus in the world at the end of December, even while there were some restrictions at the time. Drastic action was needed, some might say it wasn't harsh enough, it's taken us 4 months to get back to where we were just so we had a couple of weeks of a 'meaningful' Christmas.

Is there data available on the significant amount of transmissions?

RoadRunner

Pdoghue wrote: »

Care to put figures, specific incidents on this claim?

The duration of time we've been in forced locked down now a percentage of people will exhibit symptoms of stockholm syndrome a response that occurs when hostages or abuse victims bond with their captors or abusers.

opinionated3

Pdoghue wrote: »

Care to put figures, specific incidents on this claim?

I quizzed him on that already and he wouldn't give a definitive answer.
He also wants the sport to basically "prove" itself to be safe. Even people who never swung a golf club in their life, know this sport to be safe as houses. He also seemingly has a problem with a quick return to fourballs, claiming a two ball scenario is better. I have no idea what club he's a member of, or if he is trolling, but I'm certain if our club was to persist with that sort of foolishness we would inevitably lose members.
Bottom line, golf is safe, open it up FULLY.

Lefty2Guns

Got an email from our club (Arklow) to say 2-balls to start off with. Competitions at the weekend only.

Pdoghue

opinionated3 wrote: »

I quizzed him on that already and he wouldn't give a definitive answer.
He also wants the sport to basically "prove" itself to be safe. Even people who never swung a golf club in their life, know this sport to be safe as houses. He also seemingly has a problem with a quick return to fourballs, claiming a two ball scenario is better. I have no idea what club he's a member of, or if he is trolling, but I'm certain if our club was to persist with that sort of foolishness we would inevitably lose members.
Bottom line, golf is safe, open it up FULLY.

Agreed.. and it does look like tolling.

Kingswood Rover

From the Golf Ireland FAQ on the return of golf in the Rep of Ireland.
Q. Whose role is it to monitor members coming to our club?
A. It is the responsibility of individuals to observe society-wide public health
guidelines. Whilst golf clubs must ensure that the game is played safely, it is not the
responsibility of golf clubs to ensure that members adhere to the laws of the land.

Q. How many people can I play golf with?
A "In the initial phase of reopening in Level 5, the Irish Government have decided that
participants in sport and exercise activity must be from no more than two
households. Therefore, groups playing on golf courses during this initial phase must
be confined to a maximum of two households. This means that all tee times must
be either two- balls, or alternatively three-balls and four-balls where players in the
group are from no more than two household"

So its up to the Members to stick to public health advice which atm on the 26th is people from two households can meet outside. 3 Balls at 9 minute intervals probably the way to go Mum or Dad and son or daughter with a pal of either.

ShivasIrons

Pdoghue wrote: »

Agreed.. and it does look like tolling.

It's not trolling, there was a golf club in the south which had a function before Christmas, one of the members got the virus at the function and unfortunately passed away.


I am not going to name specific clubs or incidents. I think that is inappropriate. There are more then a few.

ShivasIrons

opinionated3 wrote: »

I quizzed him on that already and he wouldn't give a definitive answer.
He also wants the sport to basically "prove" itself to be safe. Even people who never swung a golf club in their life, know this sport to be safe as houses. He also seemingly has a problem with a quick return to fourballs, claiming a two ball scenario is better. I have no idea what club he's a member of, or if he is trolling, but I'm certain if our club was to persist with that sort of foolishness we would inevitably lose members.
Bottom line, golf is safe, open it up FULLY.

I am trying to explain to you why the 2 household rule is there and also how it is possible to get golfers around a course efficiently in 2 balls but to be honest you don't seem to be interested in any explanations.


No golf club will lose members, the experience worldwide and in Ireland too is that golf is going through it's biggest boom ever with players flocking to clubs.



I also have never said that golf isn't safe. It is, but as NPHET have stated they are worried about activities around sport. Don't you think if clubs were willing to show that they would put in measures to mitigate against these that we might have been back to playing sooner?


Why not take a little paired back version to get to play sooner? Is really no competitions and 2 balls only that harsh? Would golfers have accepted 2 balls only, no competitions and no travelling beyond 5ks back in January if it meant they could play?

blue note

I can imagine clubs ignoring this and members too. So courses effectively being full of fourballs from 4 different households. Which could be a problem if the papers / government take an interest. So like the GAA sanctioning the GAA teams who trained in breach of the restrictions, Golf Ireland could have to sanction clubs. If golfers can't be trusted to adhere to the restrictions on a voluntary basis they might force clubs to make it two balls only. Which actually wouldn't inconvenience the majority of members if they are to play adhering to the rules. I virtually never play with people who live together. And in reality the vast majority of people play with people from different households. So if people adhere to the restrictions and clubs set up for 4balls you'll have mainly two balls out at 4ball intervals. Whereas if they set up for twoballs you'll get more people onto the course.

The support bubble is completely misunderstood too. Most people seem to just think of their bubble as the circle of people they interact with. So if they're doing the shopping for their parents and their siblings are too they regard all of those people as their bubble. But a support bubble is for the likes of someone living on their own - they can join another household for covid restriction purposes. I expect golf clubs to be full of people who are in their support bubbles if asked, but in reality just people from other households.