Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

Mardy Bum

This will be the best preparation any 6th year ever got for college if they plan on attending. Real experience of independent learning. May save lots from dropping out in the middle of first year.

r93kaey5p2izun

Mardy Bum wrote: »

This will be the best preparation any 6th year ever got for college if they plan on attending. Real experience of independent learning. May save lots from dropping out in the middle of first year.

In some ways, yes. But in my experience, colleges, particularly the ITs, and certain departments of universities, are increasingly spoon feeding and babying college students through courses. I have some involvement in a college access programme, and in working with their support services, and honestly, the level of support required by a lot of students, and provided by the colleges, is ridiculous. I'm not talking about measures to overcome disadvantage or disability, just basic "mammying". There are a lot of students not capable of coping with everyday occurrences unrelated to academic requirements, and they are mollycoddled in college to a surprising degree!

Also, I think a more significant cause of drop out is students who believe the bullsh1t that when they go to college they can just study what interests them, and won't have to suffer through those awful mean subjects like Irish that held them back and didn't suit them. The reality that just about every course requires learning material that is dull, mundane, unexciting, and seemingly irrelevant (to their specific narrow interest), comes as a great shock to them.

randylonghorn

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

The reality that just about every course requires learning material that is dull, mundane, unexciting, and seemingly irrelevant (to their specific narrow interest), comes as a great shock to them.

True.

A major factor in drop-out IMO is the number of students who choose the wrong course in the first place.

Sometimes because it turns out to be totally different to what they thought it would be, and that links at least in part to your point.

Sometimes because they chose their course for entirely the wrong reasons.

They were predicted to get X number of points, so chose a course in that points range (and sometimes were encouraged to do so), even though a course at 100 points less would match their interests and aptitudes far better.

Sometimes with too much of an eye on future salary potential.

Occasionally pressurised by parents, and went with it rather than argue, especially if they had no clear path in mind themselves.

Quite common to see students going on to college because all their friends are going that year, even though they really have no clue what they want to do, and would be far better to take time out to figure it out.

r93kaey5p2izun

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/leaving-cert-must-be-abandoned-to-ease-nations-stress-in-testing-times-39134861.html

I thought you would all appreciate the opportunity to read the thoughts of our much loved and esteemed favourite former Minister, Ruairi Quinn - that renowned champion of fairness and equality of opportunity in education. He thinks the exams should be cancelled. An argument for ploughing ahead with them if ever I heard one.

TheValeyard

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/leaving-cert-must-be-abandoned-to-ease-nations-stress-in-testing-times-39134861.html

I thought you would all appreciate the opportunity to read the thoughts of our much loved and esteemed favourite former Minister, Ruairi Quinn - that renowned champion of fairness and equality of opportunity in education. He thinks the exams should be cancelled. An argument for ploughing ahead with them if ever I heard one.

Was wondering when Lenin would emerge and give us his usual sh1te.

Isnt he a board member for the ultra expensive international school that doesnt even do a leaving cert?

mirrorwall14

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/leaving-cert-must-be-abandoned-to-ease-nations-stress-in-testing-times-39134861.html

I thought you would all appreciate the opportunity to read the thoughts of our much loved and esteemed favourite former Minister, Ruairi Quinn - that renowned champion of fairness and equality of opportunity in education. He thinks the exams should be cancelled. An argument for ploughing ahead with them if ever I heard one.

I’m sick of the speculation at this stage. On the one hand we have union bosses talking about gross misinformation and then we have the Irish Times Printing the same information. We have an announcement by the minister a full week ago that created more questions than it answered and absolutely no information since despite some glaring flaws in the plans. And an avalanche of articles picking at obvious flaws. Didn’t they all meet yesterday? Come on to hell with it.

I get that we can’t talk about specifics but some proper clarity in relation to project work for LC and the notion that 3rd years are going to sit full SEC papers in September would be helpful at least

Treppen

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/leaving-cert-must-be-abandoned-to-ease-nations-stress-in-testing-times-39134861.html

I thought you would all appreciate the opportunity to read the thoughts of our much loved and esteemed favourite former Minister, Ruairi Quinn - that renowned champion of fairness and equality of opportunity in education. He thinks the exams should be cancelled. An argument for ploughing ahead with them if ever I heard one.

As my old geography teacher used to ask .... You know what he can go do with himself now? :pac:

I bet they'll have him on a radio and he'll start waxing lyrical about Le Bac... Cos that's his business now.

Next we'll have Bertie in the kitchen cabinet speaking about the Leaving Cert.

rainbowtrout

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/leaving-cert-must-be-abandoned-to-ease-nations-stress-in-testing-times-39134861.html

I thought you would all appreciate the opportunity to read the thoughts of our much loved and esteemed favourite former Minister, Ruairi Quinn - that renowned champion of fairness and equality of opportunity in education. He thinks the exams should be cancelled. An argument for ploughing ahead with them if ever I heard one.

That’s exactly what I thought when I saw the headline this morning!

km79

Really hoping for some more information before we return on Monday

acequion

Treppen wrote: »

Next we'll have Bertie in the kitchen cabinet speaking about the Leaving Cert.

lol :pac: Needed a laugh in this disaster. :D

RealJohn

km79 wrote: »

Really hoping for some more information before we return on Monday

No doubt Joe McHugh will give us our instructions this evening or tomorrow.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Here’s a plan ..
5th yr Christmas -62%
5th yr Summer. 53%
6th yr Christmas. 65%
6th yr Pre 68%

Take the average grade of these 4 exams & add 10%

62 % & 10% = 72%

Is it flawed? Deeply. Is it fair? Not particularly.

Would 80% of students/parents tear your arms from your shoulder sockets if you offered it to them right now? Absolutely.

Every school has a computer record of these exams. It completely removes any accusation of teacher bias that undermines the ‘predictive’ grade idea.Yes, people will point out the myriad flaws, but this won’t result in dunces becoming doctors or geniuses missing the boat...Once the inevitable hullabaloo dies down, do you think anyone
will be talking about this solution in three years time?

The remarkable species of student who makes a pig’s ear of house and pre exams and then lands 550 in August may not be happy, though these students are not as plentiful as some would have us believe.

This would provide clarity and put everyone out of their misery.

rainbowtrout

Not every school does tests/mocks.

Students that repeat externally/mature students sitting Leaving Cert wouldn't have any grades to go on.

TheDriver

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not every school does tests/mocks.

Students that repeat externally/mature students sitting Leaving Cert wouldn't have any grades to go on.

Plus absenteeism, medical certs for Xmas 5th Year etc etc. Plus the "I didn't get primary teaching because you marked my son down" etc etc.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not every school does tests/mocks.

Students that repeat externally/mature students sitting Leaving Cert wouldn't have any grades to go on.

Other graded work could be used for this very small percentage of students....as I said, the idea is deeply flawed.I still think it's an idea that will become more credible with every passing week.

TheValeyard

km79 wrote: »

Really hoping for some more information before we return on Monday

Management told us to expect emails on Monday with a plan.

km79

TheValeyard wrote: »

Management told us to expect emails on Monday with a plan.

If that’s the case and an agreement is in place I expect it will be out before Monday
I hope we hear it from the union first and not in the Sunday Indo as usual

rainbowtrout

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Other graded work could be used for this very small percentage of students....as I said, the idea is deeply flawed.I still think it's an idea that will become more credible with every passing week.

How would you have graded work if you are repeating externally? If I sign up to do the LC this year and study at home, where are my grades?

ooter

TheValeyard wrote: »

the ultra expensive international school that doesnt even do a leaving cert?

i'd love to hear more about this?

r93kaey5p2izun

ooter wrote: »

i'd love to hear more about this?

Nord Anglia

km79

Got an update from SC rep
They have come up with a "series of questions" for the Dept". Keep an eye on the website.

So there you go now
Work away next week and hope for the best from there on in terms of everything

Sober Crappy Chemis

km79 wrote: »

Really hoping for some more information before we return on Monday

One assumes the situation right at this moment is that all schools are closed until at least 5th of May?

RealJohn

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Would 80% of students/parents tear your arms from your shoulder sockets if you offered it to them right now? Absolutely.

So what? My job is to do what’s best for my students, not what they want.

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Every school has a computer record of these exams.

No, they don’t.

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

It completely removes any accusation of teacher bias that undermines the ‘predictive’ grade idea.

No, it doesn’t. In most cases, it’ll have been one teacher who marked all of those tests, and “that teacher hates me, because he taught my brother, and my brother has dyslexia, so he couldn’t do any homework”.

Nalani Hissing Appetizer wrote: »

Yes, people will point out the myriad flaws, but this won’t result in dunces becoming doctors or geniuses missing the boat...Once the inevitable hullabaloo dies down, do you think anyone
will be talking about this solution in three years time?

The people who feel they were hard done by will talk about it for the rest of their lives.


The idea of predicted grades is a complete non-runner, and we should stop entertaining it as if it’s in any way acceptable. It simply isn’t.

blanch152

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Actually you didn't say that. In one of your more recent posts you said that your daughter couldn't get a job because she didn't have a LC. It was implied from your first post that your daughter intended on going to college. It makes no difference to me if you daughter goes to college or goes working. But it is a bit astonishing that you were suggesting that students who are going to go straight into the world of work after school be given a Leaving Cert that amounted to a certificate of attendance and then followed it up with the fact that your daughter can't get a job without a Leaving Cert.

This is the point I was trying to make. A student will need their Leaving Cert even if they aren't going to college. The jobs market is competitive and LC is seen as the most basic qualification these days.

There are lots of students like your daughter (health issues aside) that find it hard to be motivated and are finding it difficult now. Teachers on here are largely in agreement that whatever solution is presented is that it be as fair as possible on students. Mock results are not fair, predicted grades are not fair. The actual LC exam is fair in that it's anonymous and it represents what the student was able to do in the exam.

You might not be able to sit down and teach your daughter at home, but even sitting down and going through what resources are available to her and helping her get some little bit of work done might be useful. Even if it is setting her a small target for doing a couple of exam questions each day.

We have no idea where we will be in a month's time let alone August but the exams probably will go ahead in August to try and get as many students through the LC and out working/college etc.

It might be worth sitting down with her and having a chat about it in the greater scheme of things. As she does have a health issue that would put her at risk if she was to contract corona virus when more details are provided by the Dept - that would be the time to find out from the school if she would be able to sit her exams in a special centre on her own. Then you will know how to proceed.

You are correct about the fairness of the Leaving Certificate, but it is only a limited fairness. It does not take into account the complete work done over the previous 13 or 14 years, neither does it deal with exceptional issues that happen on the day/week to individual students. It is a limited form of assessment based on performance on a single day. Yes, it has been improved with oral, aural and project/practical work also featuring as part of the assessment process, but at the end of the day it is only the most practical, least unfair method of a selection of unfair and impractical methods of assessment of such a large cohort.

But that is probably a discussion for another day on another thread.

Iamabeliever

Is there any point in having state exams this year. What one year? Like just send them to do a trade or hair dressing course. Couldn't hurt

TheDriver

Iamabeliever wrote: »

Is there any point in having state exams this year. What one year? Like just send them to do a trade or hair dressing course. Couldn't hurt

Why stop there, conscription could be a suitable suggestion. Or fruit picking.

RealJohn

TheDriver wrote: »

Why stop there, conscription could be a suitable suggestion. Or fruit picking.

Bring in national service, and they can do their leaving cert at the end of it, if they like.

km79

Sober Crappy Chemis wrote: »

One assumes the situation right at this moment is that all schools are closed until at least 5th of May?

Teachers assumed the days they were working are being counted as days of work. The government have changed the language they used with implications they are not. There are 6 weeks of our normal school year. I asked for clarification that this work is being counted. I have received none.
But sure it will be grand . Why wouldn't we just plough on in hope and trust them

Sober Crappy Chemis

km79 wrote: »

Teachers assumed the days they were working are being counted as days of work. The government have changed the language they used with implications they are not. There are 6 weeks of our normal school year. I asked for clarification that this work is being counted. I have received none.
But sure it will be grand . Why wouldn't we just plough on in hope and trust them

Is that a yes or a no?

km79

Sober Crappy Chemis wrote: »

Is that a yes or a no?

I haven’t received a clarification yet
When I do I will be sure and post it on After Hours just in case you miss it here