Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

Inspector Coptoor

blanch152 wrote: »

You are correct about the fairness of the Leaving Certificate, but it is only a limited fairness. It does not take into account the complete work done over the previous 13 or 14 years, neither does it deal with exceptional issues that happen on the day/week to individual students. It is a limited form of assessment based on performance on a single day. Yes, it has been improved with oral, aural and project/practical work also featuring as part of the assessment process, but at the end of the day it is only the most practical, least unfair method of a selection of unfair and impractical methods of assessment of such a large cohort.

But that is probably a discussion for another day on another thread.

The Leaving Cert is an assessment of a student after completing a 2 year senior cycle curriculum.
It’s not intended to cover 12-13 years of material.
The very notion that that is what the LC is meant to be there for is so wide of the mark.

Tests and exams are part of life.

Sober Crappy Chemis

km79 wrote: »

I haven’t received a clarification yet
When I do I will be sure and post it on After Hours just in case you miss it here

Erm okay. It was a serious question but obviously you've interpreted it in some offensive fashion for some inexplicable reason.

Maybe someone else can answer?

randylonghorn

Sober Crappy Chemis wrote: »

One assumes the situation right at this moment is that all schools are closed until at least 5th of May?

Given that we are on national lockdown until the 5th of May, school buildings will not re-open before then. Or probably then.

There are definitional issues about the word "closed" at the moment.

Sober Crappy Chemis

randylonghorn wrote: »

Given that we are on national lockdown until the 5th of May, school buildings will not re-open before then. Or probably then.

There are definitional issues about the word "closed" at the moment.

Thanks. I wasn't being facetious.

RealJohn

Sober Crappy Chemis wrote: »

Erm okay. It was a serious question but obviously you've interpreted it in some offensive fashion for some inexplicable reason.

Maybe someone else can answer?

Well, his answer was a bit passive aggressive, but he did answer. He said he hasn’t received an answer himself, so he doesn’t know.
That being said, if your question is if schools are to remain closed until May 5th, at least, Leo’s already answered that when he said the restrictions would be extended for a further three weeks - those restrictions include closed schools, so that brings us up until May 5th, yes.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

Teachers assumed the days they were working are being counted as days of work. The government have changed the language they used with implications they are not. There are 6 weeks of our normal school year. I asked for clarification that this work is being counted. I have received none.
But sure it will be grand . Why wouldn't we just plough on in hope and trust them

Kieran Christie confirmed to me in an email that those weeks are being counted and I'll pm you the email if you like. But if he confirmed it to me he'll confirm it to any other member who asks. Here is a copy and paste from that email:

"On a detail, the last several weeks of closure are and have been counted as tuition days as teachers were engaged in online teaching".

As well as raising that with head office I also raised it with my local TD, a former collegue. Obviously it's imperative that those days are counted.

km79 wrote: »

Really hoping for some more information before we return on Monday

Absolutely not having a go at you km [or anyone for that matter] but what's the rush for information??

It was the rush for information that led to the great information on good Friday that fcuked up everyone's Easter!
It was the rush for information that appeared to pressure the Dept into detonating their time bomb on good Friday!
It was the rush for information that lead to all the misinformation! And here we are now with far more questions than answers.

Information from the DES is almost always bad news. So it really is a case of no news is good news.

Anyway, in a constantly evolving situation like this one all news is quickly old news. I fervently wish the Dept had waited before freaking us all out with plans that may never see the light of day and I hope they might learn from it and wait from now on. I'm happy to just get on with things on Monday and I'm not going to lose sleep over how to keep the 3rd years engaged. That horse has bolted now thanks to premature "information."

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

RealJohn wrote: »

So what? My job is to do what’s best for my students, not what they want.


No, they don’t.


No, it doesn’t. In most cases, it’ll have been one teacher who marked all of those tests, and “that teacher hates me, because he taught my brother, and my brother has dyslexia, so he couldn’t do any homework”.


The people who feel they were hard done by will talk about it for the rest of their lives.


The idea of predicted grades is a complete non-runner, and we should stop entertaining it as if it’s in any way acceptable. It simply isn’t.

It’s easy to pick holes in it in fairness, but nothing you’ve said would dissuade me from using it should the s#it hit the fan in July and the exams are deemed a non-runner this calendar year.

km79

acequion wrote: »

Kieran Christie confirmed to me in an email that those weeks are being counted and I'll pm you the email if you like. But if he confirmed it to me he'll confirm it to any other member who asks. Here is a copy and paste from that email:

"On a detail, the last several weeks of closure are and have been counted as tuition days as teachers were engaged in online teaching".

As well as raising that with head office I also raised it with my local TD, a former collegue. Obviously it's imperative that those days are counted.




Absolutely not having a go at you km [or anyone for that matter] but what's the rush for information??

It was the rush for information that led to the great information on good Friday that fcuked up everyone's Easter!
It was the rush for information that appeared to pressure the Dept into detonating their time bomb on good Friday!
It was the rush for information that lead to all the misinformation! And here we are now with far more questions than answers.

Information from the DES is almost always bad news. So it really is a case of no news is good news.

Anyway, in a constantly evolving situation like this one all news is quickly old news. I fervently wish the Dept had waited before freaking us all out with plans that may never see the light of day and I hope they might learn from it and wait from now on. I'm happy to just get on with things on Monday and I'm not going to lose sleep over how to keep the 3rd years engaged. That horse has bolted now thanks to premature "information."

I meant more information from the SC meeting as to whether an agreement was now in place, if not when consultations would take place etc

I later posted about the “update “ I received from SC rep

I included K Christie in a lengthy email I sent this morning
That’s one of the questions I asked for immediate clarity on
Good to see you got it
Why can’t they just post it on the site ?
It’s something a lot of teachers are wondering /worried about since the day we closed

Bobtheman

I have not read the entire thread. Busy with kids so apologies if repeating. Are we going to hold the line on not correcting our own pupils for a state exam? I say we meaning the Asti. TUI will agree to anything.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

I meant more information from the SC meeting as to whether an agreement was now in place, if not when consultations would take place etc

I later posted about the “update “ I received from SC rep

I included K Christie in a lengthy email I sent this morning
That’s one of the questions I asked for immediate clarity on
Good to see you got it
Why can’t they just post it on the site ?
It’s something a lot of teachers are wondering /worried about since the day we closed

But that's my point! How on earth can there be any agreement this soon! It really was too soon to be making such wide reaching decisions. And look at the stress it caused! On the fightback facebook page they reckon the LC will end up cancelled.Who knows? It really is all speculation and this is a situation where we've no choice but to play a waiting game.

acequion

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have not read the entire thread. Busy with kids so apologies if repeating. Are we going to hold the line on not correcting our own pupils for a state exam? I say we meaning the Asti. TUI will agree to anything.

You're better off bobtheman Tis all very depressing and you were right in your predictions re a late summer LC. That is if it's not cancelled.

At this stage nothing would surprise me and there's a notion that we'll correct our own JC!

So rather than post here get on to the union immediately with your concerns and get on to your TD as well! [Sorry for the bossy tone but it's vital that we all raise our concerns and objections]

randylonghorn

It will be interesting to see what comes out of that NPCPP survey re: JC.

Very different perspective I know, and I expect responses re: LC to be VERY varied.

Any parents of JC candidates I have contact with though (and I seem to know more people with youngsters doing JC this year than I realised a month ago!) are echoing a lot of the comments on here:

What's the point when they're not even going to get "a proper / normal" Junior Cert / stressing the kids all summer / upsetting the start of the school year for them, etc.

Not so many mention the correcting issue, but a couple have, albeit more from the "it'll just cause issues with the unions" perspective, or as one person said "surely the priority is to get as many hands on deck to get the LC corrected quickly?".

Bobtheman

I just emailed KC Asti. On JC issue

Bobtheman

Schools won't be open May 5th as some posters seem to think. I can't see them opening until July.

Treppen

VFT is calling on exams to be cancelled now!! That would cure the uncertainty!

Bit light on suggested alternatives though. What I gathered from it was to let colleges sort it out and everyone would get their course!

I think I'd rather just wait and see. 3 months is a long way away yet.

People need to calm down and stop feeding the leaving cert hysteria.

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

VFT is calling on exams to be cancelled now!! That would cure the uncertainty!

Bit light on suggested alternatives though. What I gathered from it was to let colleges sort it out and everyone would get their course!

I think I'd rather just wait and see. 3 months is a long way away yet.

People need to calm down and stop feeding the leaving cert hysteria.

I agree at this point. Just set the date and timetable and say it is happening and exactly how unless something drastic happens with the public health. I’m already rescheduled the planning for them and what their run in will be

However the junior cert needs to go

Dylan94

Treppen wrote: »

VFT is calling on exams to be cancelled now!! That would cure the uncertainty!

Bit light on suggested alternatives though. What I gathered from it was to let colleges sort it out and everyone would get their course!

I think I'd rather just wait and see. 3 months is a long way away yet.

People need to calm down and stop feeding the leaving cert hysteria.

Where are you seeing this? I can't see anything new on VFT.

Drumpot

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The Leaving Cert is an assessment of a student after completing a 2 year senior cycle curriculum.
It’s not intended to cover 12-13 years of material.
The very notion that that is what the LC is meant to be there for is so wide of the mark.

Tests and exams are part of life.

The COVID19 outbreak is possibly the biggest test of our generation. Trying to shoe horn in exams in between will represent a massive failing. The lack of Vision and capacity to adapt is quite disappointing to be honest but not surprising. The only thing I will say is that they don’t necessarily have to make any calls yet but exams are not a necessity no matter how people will try to paint it. They are not life or death like the virus is, no matter how much a person values their education. Objectively exams are just a man made construct that can be changed if we want.

Quite often our society really struggles with a quite rigid mindset when it comes to this virus and what sort of policies should be considered. We need to adapt to the environment being created by the virus not just try to squeeze our normal practises around it. Realistically, this virus is going to be around for months to years with a vaccine a long time away, coming up with a better longer term solution (with so much technology available) would be a more appropriate response.

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I agree at this point. Just set the date and timetable and say it is happening and exactly how unless something drastic happens with the public health. I’m already rescheduled the planning for them and what their run in will be

However the junior cert needs to go

What we really need in the coming week or 2 is the FINAL AGREEMENT between Minister and all the relevant stakeholders. This should provide absolute clarity for all on what is planned re running of exams, class time etc etc AND most importantly what happens in the event public health dictates a complete cancellation.
The JC exams will surely go either way

Also I received a reply from Kieran Christie to his credit. Nothing from the President yet.
"I have read your submission below and the points you make are duly noted.

They also serve to inform our position, together with the hundreds of other submissions we have received, in the coming weeks and months.

On a detail, there is no compulsion on teachers to participate in the proposed July provision etc. if they are unavailable. No adverse consequence can be imposed on them by their school for not participating either."

I replied asking that they reiterate this point to all members on the website as there continues to be misinformation in the media.

pandoraj09

km79 wrote: »

What we really need in the coming week or 2 is the FINAL AGREEMENT between Minister and all the relevant stakeholders. This should provide absolute clarity for all on what is planned re running of exams, class time etc etc AND most importantly what happens in the event public health dictates a complete cancellation.
The JC exams will surely go either way

Also I received a reply from Kieran Christie to his credit. Nothing from the President yet.
"I have read your submission below and the points you make are duly noted.

They also serve to inform our position, together with the hundreds of other submissions we have received, in the coming weeks and months.

On a detail, there is no compulsion on teachers to participate in the proposed July provision etc. if they are unavailable. No adverse consequence can be imposed on them by their school for not participating either."

I replied asking that they reiterate this point to all members on the website as there continues to be misinformation in the media.

That's very interesting. I wonder how many Principals will mention that in the email we'll surely get from them on Monday morning? So say I tell management I'm unavailable in July. Will other teachers on the staff who willingly put on the green jersey have to teach the classes I'm not there to teach? Is is only the 6th years that are coming in? I'd say this will cause a lot of resentment among staff, some choosing to come in and some not. It will cause issues for management trying to manage social distancing among staff and students and if only a few teachers turn up will the school be able to function, whatever that will mean in July? I'm not saying it should be classed as compulsory, just wondering what way management will put it in their emails. Non permanent ( and permanent) staff may feel pressurised to turn up and it may make for a bad atmosphere in staff rooms in September. I'm not saying I won't do it. I'm not saying I will. I feel stressed even thinking about all this online stuff starting up again.

Treppen

Drumpot wrote: »

The COVID19 outbreak is possibly the biggest test of our generation. Trying to shoe horn in exams in between will represent a massive failing. The lack of Vision and capacity to adapt is quite disappointing to be honest but not surprising. The only thing I will say is that they don’t necessarily have to make any calls yet but exams are not a necessity no matter how people will try to paint it. They are not life or death like the virus is, no matter how much a person values their education. Objectively exams are just a man made construct that can be changed if we want.

Quite often our society really struggles with a quite rigid mindset when it comes to this virus and what sort of policies should be considered. We need to adapt to the environment being created by the virus not just try to squeeze our normal practises around it. Realistically, this virus is going to be around for months to years with a vaccine a long time away, coming up with a better longer term solution (with so much technology available) would be a more appropriate response.

So what are you proposing?

Millem

pandoraj09 wrote: »

That's very interesting. I wonder how many Principals will mention that in the email we'll surely get from them on Monday morning? So say I tell management I'm unavailable in July. Will other teachers on the staff who willingly put on the green jersey have to teach the classes I'm not there to teach? Is is only the 6th years that are coming in? I'd say this will cause a lot of resentment among staff, some choosing to come in and some not. It will cause issues for management trying to manage social distancing among staff and students and if only a few teachers turn up will the school be able to function, whatever that will mean in July? I'm not saying it should be classed as compulsory, just wondering what way management will put it in their emails. Non permanent ( and permanent) staff may feel pressurised to turn up and it may make for a bad atmosphere in staff rooms in September. I'm not saying I won't do it. I'm not saying I will. I feel stressed even thinking about all this online stuff starting up again.

I got an email from my principal saying the two weeks of July are for “all staff”!
Basically the 6th year classes will be divided up.
No mention of voluntary.

The 15th June - 15th July is for 6th year teachers only....to engage in remote learning and teaching.

Unbelievable.

km79

Millem wrote: »

I got an email from my principal saying the two weeks of July are for “all staff”!
Basically the 6th year classes will be divided up.
No mention of voluntary.

The 15th June - 15th July is for 6th year teachers only....to engage in remote learning and teaching.

Unbelievable.

This is what’s being reported by the media
This is what the Minister has proposed
This is exactly why I want clarity immediately before morale in schools is affected

km79

Millem wrote: »

I got an email from my principal saying the two weeks of July are for “all staff”!
Basically the 6th year classes will be divided up.
No mention of voluntary.

The 15th June - 15th July is for 6th year teachers only....to engage in remote learning and teaching.

Unbelievable.

Kchristie@asti.ie
President@asti.ie

Might make them realise what the reality is and why they need to communicate clarifications on some issues immediately

jayo76

Yeah I really think the period from the middle of June to the middle of July we need immediate clarity on and that the ASTI should be seeking clarity and giving direction on. Making myself available for the two weeks in July I can make my peace with but I am not engaging in any "teaching and learning remotely" from the 15th to June to 15th July. I will make myself available to "support" my LC between those dates but to me that support means answering queries, maybe correcting extra essays they have done, offering guidance and I would expect to make myself available for this on clearly defined days and times during this period. I will not and really think we shouldnt be asked to be teaching classes in that period. I really would like the Union to have a position on this before individual managements start issuing their expectations.

pandoraj09

jayo76 wrote: »

Yeah I really think the period from the middle of June to the middle of July we need immediate clarity on and that the ASTI should be seeking clarity and giving direction on. Making myself available for the two weeks in July I can make my peace with but I am not engaging in any "teaching and learning remotely" from the 15th to June to 15th July. I will make myself available to "support" my LC between those dates but to me that support means answering queries, maybe correcting extra essays they have done, offering guidance and I would expect to make myself available for this on clearly defined days and times during this period. I will not and really think we shouldnt be asked to be teaching classes in that period. I really would like the Union to have a position on this before individual managements start issuing their expectations.

Totally agree with the above. My LCs are quite helpless. They need to be spoon fed in the classroom and have been sending me endless messages about not being able to access audio files etc from the phones they're using for remote work. I can imagine the constant stream of messages I'd be getting in June/July. I'm getting anxious just thinking about the email from management.

Bobtheman

I'm a bit surprised by some of the posts here. It's all voluntary. From the end of May until mid July its suggested you keep in touch with pupils but they can't force you to do that either.
Its up to each teacher to decide what's fair.
As to the JC that's a lifetime away. September.
I can't see the Asti agreeing to us correcting students for exam purposes. State exams
Principals can write whatever they like . Its up to you to decide yourself. But for some on the career ladder or without a backbone it's roll over time.

Bobtheman

pandoraj09 wrote: »

Totally agree with the above. My LCs are quite helpless. They need to be spoon fed in the classroom and have been sending me endless messages about not being able to access audio files etc from the phones they're using for remote work. I can imagine the constant stream of messages I'd be getting in June/July. I'm getting anxious just thinking about the email from management.

It's all voluntary. It's up to you to set the parameters of what happens after June. Completely
If you can't say no to pupils then that's your issue. Completely. But you can't blame the ASTI or your management

jayo76

Bobtheman wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised by some of the posts here. It's all voluntary. From the end of May until mid July its suggested you keep in touch with pupils but they can't force you to do that either.
Its up to each teacher to decide what's fair.
As to the JC that's a lifetime away. September.
I can't see the Asti agreeing to us correcting students for exam purposes. State exams
Principals can write whatever they like . Its up to you to decide yourself. But for some on the career ladder or without a backbone it's roll over time.

Do totally agree with you that its up to people to have backbone, to decide for themselves what is reasonable and fair in terms of support and availability for the month. In my submission though to my SC rep the expectations for June and the need for clarity was one of my key points and i know it was for many others. Many management teams, parents and as mentioned above some students will have very different interpretations of what availability for that month means.

I myself will stick to what I deem fair and reasonable for me, many teachers however will feel pressured if there are no clear guidelines.

jayo76

Bobtheman wrote: »

It's all voluntary. It's up to you to set the parameters of what happens after June. Completely
If you can't say no to pupils then that's your issue. Completely. But you can't blame the ASTI or your management

Again I have to say to you I will hold my ground and do what I deem fair and reasonable for me and the students. Many non permanent teachers its not so easy to do if management say this is what you should be doing. Many of the non permanet teachers in my school as an example were willing to attend SLAR meetings outside school hours as management asked them to do so and to keep onside and protect job possibilities they had no choice.