Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

Mardy Bum

The Junior Cert plan has to be a cover to keep students studying for 6 weeks. Who in their right mind thought it was viable.

RealJohn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Junior Cert plan has to be a cover to keep students studying for 6 weeks. Who in their right mind thought it was viable.

Telling them that the exams would be on at the same time as the leaving cert, or immediately after, might have kept them studying. Nobody in their right mind would think most third years would continue working for six weeks towards exams that have been cancelled.

Benicetomonty

https://t.co/eGYxxz9vhV?amp=1

The NAPD nailing their colours to the wall, retweeting this article.
Not that I totally disagree with him.
Just to ask the question: if it was decided that the LC cannot go ahead in july/august, how can the educational calender of 2020/2021 be saved unless predictive grades are used?

History Queen

Benicetomonty wrote: »

https://t.co/eGYxxz9vhV?amp=1

The NAPD nailing their colours to the wall, retweeting this article.
Not that I totally disagree with him.
Just to ask the question: if it was decided that the LC cannot go ahead in july/august, how can the educational calender of 2020/2021 be saved unless predictive grades are used?

Very disappointing to see a principal advocating such an unfair system but worse, to be adding to the media fanfare around the issue. It is the constant near hysterical faux concern and hangwringing that is adding to the misery of our students.

Saying that I can't offer an alternative if July/Aug doesn't go as planned, although it must be remembered that right now, we don't need one. The Leaving Certificate is going ahead at this moment in time. And the people who need to make a decison on a plan B are no doubt doing so.

Surely in the interests of our students we should be reminding them of this and telling them to work towards a new deadline not worry themselves pointlessly about 'ifs' and 'buts'. Focus on the task at hand and control what is controllable in their world right now. I could be wrong but this is the attitude I am taking and the message I am going to try to give my students.

Treppen

acequion wrote: »

What are you implying by this? That on top of working from mid June to the end of July we'll all be in invigilating in August? And then back in September correcting our own JC?

Have people gone totally crazy or is there really no limit as to what teachers are expected to do?

Yes

And

Yes

Treppen

Benicetomonty wrote: »

https://t.co/eGYxxz9vhV?amp=1

The NAPD nailing their colours to the wall, retweeting this article.
Not that I totally disagree with him.
Just to ask the question: if it was decided that the LC cannot go ahead in july/august, how can the educational calender of 2020/2021 be saved unless predictive grades are used?

Any whiff of risk to health in August LC then predicted grades it is.

r93kaey5p2izun

The people who need to make a decision on Plan B should be consulting officially with all stakeholders on that plan. It's not good enough to just do it in secret and roll it out at the last minute. That leads to situations like the unfair mess of the practicals. And definitely not good enough to operate on the basis of hope that it will go ahead. It should go ahead if possible, I agree with the postponement, but a clear Plan B should also be outlined for if we reach a new academic year without LC complete.

acequion

Treppen wrote: »

Yes

And

Yes

Sure throw in xmas as well while you're at it :rolleyes::rolleyes:

There isn't a hope in hell that I'd be prepared to "help" with the August LC if I've just spent the previous 6 weeks working.

Teachers needs to start getting more vocal about their limits before all this hysteria goes any further.

RealJohn

Benicetomonty wrote: »

https://t.co/eGYxxz9vhV?amp=1

The NAPD nailing their colours to the wall, retweeting this article.
Not that I totally disagree with him.
Just to ask the question: if it was decided that the LC cannot go ahead in july/august, how can the educational calender of 2020/2021 be saved unless predictive grades are used?

Literally anything else.
I’ve said before (not sure if it was this thread or another one), letting students award their own grades, with schools having the ability to reject the students’ decisions, and make them do it again if they’re too generous to themselves, would be better than predicted grades by teachers.
I’ve half a mind to award all of my students H1s if they try to force that upon me.

Postponing the exams further would be better.
Allowing them to do the exams online, from home, would be better.
Taking their junior cert results and extending them to the leaving cert would be better.
Literally, almost anything would be better.

km79

km79 wrote: »

Hope we get a report back from SC today with some clarity around a few of the issues/serious concerns they intend to address

https://www.asti.ie/news/state-exams-2020-notice-to-members/

If this is all we are getting I’ll be absolutely raging
I am not willing to blindly walk through the next 6 weeks hoping the work we are doing is even being counted due to it not being the newly coined “classroom instruction “
There better be more info coming

Benicetomonty

RealJohn wrote: »

Literally anything else.
I’ve said before (not sure if it was this thread or another one), letting students award their own grades, with schools having the ability to reject the students’ decisions, and make them do it again if they’re too generous to themselves, would be better than predicted grades by teachers.
I’ve half a mind to award all of my students H1s if they try to force that upon me.

Postponing the exams further would be better.
Allowing them to do the exams online, from home, would be better.
Taking their junior cert results and extending them to the leaving cert would be better.
Literally, almost anything would be better.

Postponing not going to be an option I dont think.
Online exams not a runner. Broadband too poor in too many places.
Junior Cert descriptors you mean, as they would be for several subjects? Junior Cert/Cycle is done. There will be no Junior Recycle.

Im thinking most schools will have uploaded results from xmas and summer tests. They would possibly represent the fairest assessments of a student's progress given they would be free from post Covid reconsideration. They could be part of the equation. Then some sort of formula that would also consider the mocks could be devised, then add on 5 or 10pc for context.

It would be a disaster and Id imagine there would be legal issues all over the shop. But I can see it happening at this stage.

ethical

Is it not time for someone else to take over and do some of the heavy lifting?
The 3rd level Colleges could,through the process of an entry exam and a interview coupled with feedback from schools ,make their mind up on who they take in for first year. (Isnt it something like 66% or 75% of LC students that go to college?)

In my opinion this would get rid of the mess we are in at the moment and of course its the teachers that are on here not knowing where they are going.How many Principals are commenting,one that I know of.Its time to get pro active.

Perhaps every Union member should bombard that lady,Miss McDonald with their views,you know ,the ones she did fcuk all with the other day and of course in Ireland if we do not get the required result first time around we ask again,so maybe its time we asked again?
She expects and has even provided an email: examqueries@asti.ie

Dylan94

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Im thinking most schools will have uploaded results from xmas and summer tests. They would possibly represent the fairest assessments of a student's progress given they would be free from post Covid reconsideration. They could be part of the equation. Then some sort of formula that would also consider the mocks could be devised, then add on 5 or 10pc for context.

What would happen though with two different 6th year classes in a subject.
Teacher A has the full course covered and marked mocks/exams somewhat generously to improve students confidence.

Teacher B has 75% of the course covered and also marked very hard to frighten students to work harder.

Two students who worked equally as hard and with same ability levels would get two very different results.

Benicetomonty

Dylan94 wrote: »

What would happen though with two different 6th year classes in a subject.
Teacher A has the full course covered and marked mocks/exams somewhat generously to improve students confidence.

Teacher B has 75% of the course covered and also marked very hard to frighten students to work harder.

Two students who worked equally as hard and with same ability levels would get two very different results.

Thats why Id emphasise the house exams over the mocks tbh. They would be graded on work done and modules covered. Mocks wouldve featured questions on areas that possibly werent covered.
We all know the standard of mocks corrections have been pretty poor of late. Id move to lesson their value, but not discount them entirely because wed need some objectivity to avoid being slaughtered by unhappy candidates and their families.
Of course, not every school sends their mocks out for correction so teachers in those schools would have nowhere to hide. Hard to know whats for the best.

km79

An “update “ from our leader https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HVgXRwlOwQc&fbclid=IwAR0caAVsIheevWyR6_XEFfWLLsH5Yp1l3YzvIPb_29zy1FSMonvG9nF6v7g

I don’t even have the energy left to comment on that
See ye in July
All of it

RealJohn

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Postponing not going to be an option I dont think.

Why not?

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Online exams not a runner. Broadband too poor in too many places.

And some sort of contingency would be needed for those but that doesn’t make it an automatic non-runner. What percentage of students don’t have phones with internet access? It would be a long way down the list but not impossible.

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Junior Cert descriptors you mean, as they would be for several subjects?

No, I mean their junior cert results. This year’s leaving certs didn’t do any junior cycle subjects (other than English, I think), and anyway, the junior cycle subjects have a terminal exam, marked in the traditional way, so those results would, at least, be reliably, anonymously, impartially marked.

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Im thinking most schools will have uploaded results from xmas and summer tests. They would possibly represent the fairest assessments of a student's progress given they would be free from post Covid reconsideration.

How would they? Different schools, and indeed, different teachers in the same school could have given different tests, marked them to different standards, and importantly, most teachers have little or no real experience marking exams properly, because most choose never to mark for the SEC.
It would be completely unfair on the students to have people of varying degrees of competence, essentially picking the grades out of thin air, based on their own perceived expertise.

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Then some sort of formula that would also consider the mocks could be devised, then add on 5 or 10pc for context.

And this would be even worse.

Benicetomonty wrote: »

It would be a disaster and Id imagine there would be legal issues all over the shop.

At least this bit is right.
Teachers need to stop entertaining the idea that there are circumstances under which we’ll award our students their grades, because every one of you who suggests it is hammering a nail in the coffin of the profession.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

An “update “ from our leader https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HVgXRwlOwQc&fbclid=IwAR0caAVsIheevWyR6_XEFfWLLsH5Yp1l3YzvIPb_29zy1FSMonvG9nF6v7g

I don’t even have the energy left to comment on that
See ye in July
All of it

You had me worried there but at least it's no worse than it was.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Be interesting to see how the whole July thing will be organised, if it priceeds.

Will timetables be made out regardless of need? Can teachers contact their own classes and see if they even want extra classes in some/all/no subjects. Some courses are probably covered/ some not.

Hope it doesn't just turn into a vehicle to massage the egos of management and the minister.

Benicetomonty

RealJohn wrote: »

Why not?

Well, my initial q was based on the hypothetical that the next academic year would not be sacrificed, so thats why.

And some sort of contingency would be needed for those but that doesn’t make it an automatic non-runner. What percentage of students don’t have phones with internet access? It would be a long way down the list but not impossible.

Its not an option without shipping students to hubs where broadband is adequate. 4 or 5g is just as unreliable in remote areas as broadband functionality or availability. Doing an exam on a phone where diagrams may have to be drawn etc is not feasible.

No, I mean their junior cert results. This year’s leaving certs didn’t do any junior cycle subjects (other than English, I think), and anyway, the junior cycle subjects have a terminal exam, marked in the traditional way, so those results would, at least, be reliably, anonymously, impartially marked.

How do you grade English so? Margins between descriptors are laughable so good luck converting a higher merit into a H whatever.

How would they? Different schools, and indeed, different teachers in the same school could have given different tests, marked them to different standards, and importantly, most teachers have little or no real experience marking exams properly, because most choose never to mark for the SEC.
It would be completely unfair on the students to have people of varying degrees of competence, essentially picking the grades out of thin air, based on their own perceived expertise.

If you accept (and youre entitled not to) that the exam cant happen in its traditional format then any kind of standardisation goes out the window. I think most teachers would put a reasonable degree of effort into their corrections with due consideration to a pupil's work ethic, effort and potential. I know I do. Obviously, it would have to be written in blood that it would be a once off. Dont disagree that it sets a precedent but thats just something that will have to be fought if and when that time comes.

mirrorwall14

God I’m sorry but does anyone else find the ‘take a complete break’ stuff incredibly patronising? It’s driving me completely bonkers. I CANT take a complete break?!! I have two kids to mind while teaching. If I don’t get ahead now on preparation I will not make it through the next six weeks. This isn’t a bloody holiday. Yes there’s more down time but I’m still working to try and get organised.

And to be honest I’ve always had work to do over Easter. I’ve never taken it fully off, last term is busy enough. And sure what would I teach in my classes next Monday if I didn’t prepare anything? My sixth years have their Easter Composing paper submitted as usual and I’m correcting those.

It wasnt me123

Does she not have access to her teachers? Obviously not right now as everyone is on Easter Holidays but outside of that?[/QUOTE]

Online using microsoft 365 - I'm not sure what that entails. I'm assuming its like zoom and a whole load of children are all on at the same time.

That works for some children but not for my daughter - she needs the focus and accountability of actual school plus I'm not sure how much time they get - it certainly isn't 5 or 6 hours like a normal school day. For my daughter, its just not enough.

johnmc2020

Came across this article today, might be of interest, written by a LC student - think it has a lot of valid points.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-to-postpone-the-leaving-cert-dogged-by-dozens-of-unanswered-questions-1.4228625

History Queen

@itwasntme123

With respect. And I mean that sincerely. Your daughter needs to make an effort too. There's only so much teachers can do, personal responsibility comes in to it also. Maybe ask your daughterto show you what she is doing using Teams? I use it and don't use Zoom. My students have me available one-to-one via the chat function. I'm sure many teachers are similar.You can see then if she is engaging as much as she could be and maybe support her to do so/encourage her to contact her teachers if she is finding something difficult. Maybe she is reluctant to contact them directly?

Under normal circumstances your daughter would only have another 6 weeks in school anyway, she would need to take responsibility for herself in the rest of her education or going to work or whatever her next step is regardless of current circumstances. Try support her where you can to do so. (Completely understand this is easier said than done). Best of luck to you both .

rainbowtrout

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Does she not have access to her teachers? Obviously not right now as everyone is on Easter Holidays but outside of that?

Online using microsoft 365 - I'm not sure what that entails. I'm assuming its like zoom and a whole load of children are all on at the same time.

That works for some children but not for my daughter - she needs the focus and accountability of actual school plus I'm not sure how much time they get - it certainly isn't 5 or 6 hours like a normal school day. For my daughter, its just not enough.

Have you asked her? There is personal responsibility involved at your end too for your or your daughter. The teachers she has can only do so much the way things have panned out.

If she goes to college next year, she will be expected to study alone. Lectures are largely one way traffic, you sit and listen, and then go home and learn it.

At this stage of the year she would be finished/finishing a lot of courses. She doesn't need a teacher looking over her shoulder for an entire 40 minutes in a class. It wouldn't happen like that in a real class.

E.g. if the maths teacher has set maths questions for them in a particular topic, then it is her responsibility to complete them to the best of her ability, send on her work to her teacher (if that is how they are operating) but also if she is having problems with a particular topic or question, send a message to that teacher asking for help.

There isn't really any other way around it at the moment.

One of my subjects is maths. I'm putting up video explanations for various questions we are doing. However they don't go up until a day or two after I've set them to allow the students time to attempt them. Students that get stuck send me a message saying which question they are having trouble with. If it's a straightforward explanation I can just send them back a typed message, if it is more complex, I might send back an audio file with me describing how to do the problem and I might send a photo of the solution.

km79

Parents council now also have a survey out
https://t.co/4jFI6Hnntx?amp=1

More fuel on the fire .
Is it too much to ask that the union would have our one together by now ?
So we can see in black and white The opinions of the membership . What I got back from SC was not representative of what I’ve read and heard

It wasnt me123

Lads, you know nothing about my daughter - I won’t give too much away here but she clearly is not an academic / studious child - some children can’t self study and she finished school on 13 March - 5 weeks out of school so far - could be out for another 2 months, that’s close to 4 months out of school and she is then expected to turn around and do the most important exam of her 12 years of schooling.

And by the way rainbowtrout I said earlier she wasn’t going to college, she didn’t apply to CAO

I think what this pandemic has shown Is that there is not one solution to all problems.

I hope the solution that is found favours the needs of the children, not the system.

randylonghorn

Just re: accuracy of predictive grading in the UK, where they are at least used to doing it:

Dr. Gill Wyness, UCL Institute of Education wrote:

I find evidence that the system of predicted grades is inaccurate. Only 16% of applicants achieved the A-level grade points that they were predicted to achieve, based on their best three A-levels. However, the vast majority (75% of applicants) were over-predicted – ie their grades were predicted to be higher than they actually achieved. Students from disadvantaged backgrounds and state schools are more likely to be over-predicted, whilst those at independent schools receive more accurate predictions. However, accuracy varies dramatically according to the A-level attainment of the student with lower attaining applicants far more likely to have their grades over-predicted. Therefore, after controlling for prior attainment and background characteristics, students from state schools are actually less likely to be overpredicted than those in independent and grammar schools.

Meanwhile, at the top of the attainment distribution, grades are slightly more likely to be under-predicted, and among these high-attaining students, applicants from low income backgrounds are significantly more likely to have their grades under-predicted than those from high-income backgrounds.

My emphasis.



Source: https://www.ucu.org.uk/media/8409/Predicted-grades-accuracy-and-impact-Dec-16/pdf/Predicted_grades_report_Dec2016.pdf

Was linked in Frank Milling's tweet mentioned above, only got round to reading it now.

Inspector Coptoor

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Lads, you know nothing about my daughter - I won’t give too much away here but she clearly is not an academic / studious child - some children can’t self study and she finished school on 13 March - 5 weeks out of school so far - could be out for another 2 months, that’s close to 4 months out of school and she is then expected to turn around and do the most important exam of her 12 years of schooling.

And by the way rainbowtrout I said earlier she wasn’t going to college, she didn’t apply to CAO

I think what this pandemic has shown Is that there is not one solution to all problems.

I hope the solution that is found favours the needs of the children, not the system.

Seriously?

5 weeks out of school?
When you’re counting two weeks of Easter in that?
Most schools were off Monday 16th and Tuesday 17th March.
Students have not missed that much time.

There are 6 weeks of term left and we have lost three weeks max already so thats 9 weeks or 2.25 months.

There isn’t one solution - agreed there.

rainbowtrout

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Lads, you know nothing about my daughter - I won’t give too much away here but she clearly is not an academic / studious child - some children can’t self study and she finished school on 13 March - 5 weeks out of school so far - could be out for another 2 months, that’s close to 4 months out of school and she is then expected to turn around and do the most important exam of her 12 years of schooling.

And by the way rainbowtrout I said earlier she wasn’t going to college, she didn’t apply to CAO

I think what this pandemic has shown Is that there is not one solution to all problems.

I hope the solution that is found favours the needs of the children, not the system.

Actually you didn't say that. In one of your more recent posts you said that your daughter couldn't get a job because she didn't have a LC. It was implied from your first post that your daughter intended on going to college. It makes no difference to me if you daughter goes to college or goes working. But it is a bit astonishing that you were suggesting that students who are going to go straight into the world of work after school be given a Leaving Cert that amounted to a certificate of attendance and then followed it up with the fact that your daughter can't get a job without a Leaving Cert.

This is the point I was trying to make. A student will need their Leaving Cert even if they aren't going to college. The jobs market is competitive and LC is seen as the most basic qualification these days.

There are lots of students like your daughter (health issues aside) that find it hard to be motivated and are finding it difficult now. Teachers on here are largely in agreement that whatever solution is presented is that it be as fair as possible on students. Mock results are not fair, predicted grades are not fair. The actual LC exam is fair in that it's anonymous and it represents what the student was able to do in the exam.

You might not be able to sit down and teach your daughter at home, but even sitting down and going through what resources are available to her and helping her get some little bit of work done might be useful. Even if it is setting her a small target for doing a couple of exam questions each day.

We have no idea where we will be in a month's time let alone August but the exams probably will go ahead in August to try and get as many students through the LC and out working/college etc.

It might be worth sitting down with her and having a chat about it in the greater scheme of things. As she does have a health issue that would put her at risk if she was to contract corona virus when more details are provided by the Dept - that would be the time to find out from the school if she would be able to sit her exams in a special centre on her own. Then you will know how to proceed.

mirrorwall14

Irish times posts every bit of the material that was on WhatsApp at the weekend that we were told was ‘gross misinformation’.....

Leaving Cert exams could run until early September
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-exams-could-run-until-early-september-1.4230847