Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-to-postpone-the-leaving-cert-dogged-by-dozens-of-unanswered-questions-1.4228625

Impact on students' mental health:

Two more months of added stress, anxiety and pressure on students for exams that are still not guaranteed to go ahead in July or August. Students are now being asked to study through the summer with no added motivation, considering all their upcoming plans such as holidays, concerts and sporting events have now been thrown out the window.

The pandemic means that those events probably won't take place anyway.


If teachers refuse to return to work in July:

There is currently no deal in place for teachers to return to schools in July. What if the unions oppose this idea? The ASTI has already stated that “no teacher will be required to do anything. The proposal from the Department of Education cannot be enforced”.

ethical

Is it me or does anyone think its really strange the ASTI Deirdre McDonald is going on in her various press interviews?
She would have got a hell of a lots of issues from the grass roots feedback,no doubt discussed at yesterdays Standing Cmmtte meeting,yet she has no issues whatsoever and she said she will not ask for extra money for her members July work.I just find it difficult to understand how someone could carry on like she is and the issues still outstanding.Then again she will not be in the frontline in July!!

(Id imagine she will want the JC scrapped altogether when she meets the Dept later in the week,is this a bargaining tool as KM79 hinted at here previously? )

km79

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/plan-to-postpone-the-leaving-cert-dogged-by-dozens-of-unanswered-questions-1.4228625

Impact on students' mental health:


The pandemic means that those events probably won't take place anyway.


If teachers refuse to return to work in July:

I’m sure lots of teachers like myself had family holidays planned during our annual leave as well
To help with our mental health

Obviously we won’t be going anyway but it’s just taken as a given at this stage ........whereas I’ve seen and heard parents on the national media complaining about how it is affecting theirs .........imagine if one of us went on and said it

ethical

Who is fooling who?
I know of a school that has handed over its exam hall to a hospital as a step down facility!
Does the Golden Circle know something the ordinary punter does not know?

How can this school hold its exams if it has handed over its facility?

Something strange goin on !!!

spurious

Treppen wrote: »

Organising in-house junior cert exams at the start of a new year will never fly.
Sec can keep whatever papers they can for next year.

Unfortunately, for a number of JC subjects they are moving to a common level paper (another genius idea), so neither the HL or OL papers set for this year's JC will be suitable.

TheDriver

ethical wrote: »

Who is fooling who?
I know of a school that has handed over its exam hall to a hospital as a step down facility!
Does the Golden Circle know something the ordinary punter does not know?

How can this school hold its exams if it has handed over its facility?

Something strange goin on !!!

It's all laid out in a Dept circular issues few weeks back.
What golden circle are you on about?

Mrsmum

I am a parent of a fifth year and a second year students and it would seem to me that this year's mess will spill over into next year what with teachers drained from working the summer and JC exams needed to be accommodated in Sept not to mention students being away from proper school time with months on end and of course the Covid virus still at large. But before all of that we have to get over this year for the exam students and there is just no option that doesn't cause problems.
From reading this and other threads it seems teachers are totally against predicted grades, with some good arguments, so let's rule that out. Having exams in June is really too tight in the timeframe of keeping everyone safe so that's been discarded as an option too. So I can understand the powers that be deciding on as late as possible in the summer. Imo it's the only option (unless things get even worse.). But it's tough on the poor 6th years and also on the teachers whom they need to help and support them this summer. Would they not consider giving teachers some sort of bonus payment to ease the pain so to speak. Lots of money being spent at the moment, what harm a bit more for this very important issue.
Lastly two things. Scrap the practicals and give full marks like the orals. That's only fair. And give 3rd years a JC grade based on all the exam results they have done to date since first year. Surely those Christmas and summer exams are a true reflection of their work to date.
And Thanks to all the teachers, like those my children have, making enormous efforts to keep teaching online since school closed. Lots and lots of work behind the scenes I'm sure. My children say they learn better in school but we can all only do the best we can in the given circumstances.

km79

Mrsmum wrote: »

I am a parent of a fifth year and a second year students and it would seem to me that this year's mess will spill over into next year what with teachers drained from working the summer and JC exams needed to be accommodated in Sept not to mention students being away from proper school time with months on end and of course the Covid virus still at large. But before all of that we have to get over this year for the exam students and there is just no option that doesn't cause problems.
From reading this and other threads it seems teachers are totally against predicted grades, with some good arguments, so let's rule that out. Having exams in June is really too tight in the timeframe of keeping everyone safe so that's been discarded as an option too. So I can understand the powers that be deciding on as late as possible in the summer. Imo it's the only option (unless things get even worse.). But it's tough on the poor 6th years and also on the teachers whom they need to help and support them this summer. Would they not consider giving teachers some sort of bonus payment to ease the pain so to speak. Lots of money being spent at the moment, what harm a bit more for this very important issue.
Lastly two things. Scrap the practicals and give full marks like the orals. That's only fair. And give 3rd years a JC grade based on all the exam results they have done to date since first year. Surely those Christmas and summer exams are a true reflection of their work to date.
And Thanks to all the teachers, like those my children have, making enormous efforts to keep teaching online since school closed. Lots and lots of work behind the scenes I'm sure. My children say they learn better in school but we can all only do the best we can in the given circumstances.

Thanks for your support
It means a lot genuinely to see something nice written about teachers from time to time
No teachers are looking for or want bonus payment. We just want the Minister in particular to be a bit more respectful and perhaps consider consulting more when making huge decisions
Agree completely regarding practicals and JC
Hope and expect this is what will eventually happen
Thanks again

History Queen

km79 wrote: »

Thanks for your support
It means a lot genuinely to see something nice written about teachers from time to time
No teachers are looking for or want bonus payment. We just want the Minister in particular to be a bit more respectful and perhaps consider consulting more when making huge decisions
Agree completely regarding practicals and JC
Hope and expect this is what will eventually happen
Thanks again

I just want to echo these sentiments. Thank you MrsMum for the kind words and support but I, like Km79, don't want any bonus. We just want to be consulted and treated like professionals when decisions are being made. Teachers after all are dealing with students on a daily basis and are trying our best to support them through these difficult times.

I also agree regarding practicals

mirrorwall14

Mrsmum wrote: »

I am a parent of a fifth year and a second year students and it would seem to me that this year's mess will spill over into next year what with teachers drained from working the summer and JC exams needed to be accommodated in Sept not to mention students being away from proper school time with months on end and of course the Covid virus still at large. But before all of that we have to get over this year for the exam students and there is just no option that doesn't cause problems.
From reading this and other threads it seems teachers are totally against predicted grades, with some good arguments, so let's rule that out. Having exams in June is really too tight in the timeframe of keeping everyone safe so that's been discarded as an option too. So I can understand the powers that be deciding on as late as possible in the summer. Imo it's the only option (unless things get even worse.). But it's tough on the poor 6th years and also on the teachers whom they need to help and support them this summer. Would they not consider giving teachers some sort of bonus payment to ease the pain so to speak. Lots of money being spent at the moment, what harm a bit more for this very important issue.
Lastly two things. Scrap the practicals and give full marks like the orals. That's only fair. And give 3rd years a JC grade based on all the exam results they have done to date since first year. Surely those Christmas and summer exams are a true reflection of their work to date.
And Thanks to all the teachers, like those my children have, making enormous efforts to keep teaching online since school closed. Lots and lots of work behind the scenes I'm sure. My children say they learn better in school but we can all only do the best we can in the given circumstances.

Exactly the same feelings here. Thank you for not giving off about us. Please do get in touch with your local TDs and encourage other parents to do the same. We do not get listened too.

My stance as a teacher is the same as you. LC is needed and I'll be there to support my students but scrap the practicals/outstanding elements.

However I sent a scathing email to all my local TDs in relation to the JC. Trying to hold an exam (that is no longer state certified) is going to completely disrupt the return to school for all students. It is ridiculous to suggest it.

It wasnt me123

History Queen wrote: »

It wasn't me123, this is worth a read. Specifically acknowledges the issue around vulnerable students such as your daughter. The Dept are aware of and looking in to contingencies for students in her situation. A little reassurance for her maybe?

/QUOTE]

Thanks for that I will show her it. I asked her how she was getting on earlier, she said I'm on holidays. She said some children can self educate - pick a subject, research, etc and some can't and she can't. She needs actual school, teachers and students - nor will she redo 6th year - it was hard enough to get her to finish it as it was - and she can't apply for a job because they ask for LCs. She's in limbo and knows it and its heart breaking - they better come up with something fast, sitting around waiting is not a solution.

ethical

The "Top" Union leaders are not fit for purpose!
cruel and all as it may be ,one is put in a position to represent their members views from what has come out over the last few days would show that some people need to take a good long hard look at themselves and then consider their position.

Wear the jersey,wear it on the front line........do NOT force others who told you their views but you interpreted them differently(or so it seems) and ,to put their lives in danger and stand on the front line.
Its very easy to talk the talk but its rather more difficult to walk the walk!

History Queen

Thanks for that I will show her it. I asked her how she was getting on earlier, she said I'm on holidays. She said some children can self educate - pick a subject, research, etc and some can't and she can't. She needs actual school, teachers and students - nor will she redo 6th year - it was hard enough to get her to finish it as it was - and she can't apply for a job because they ask for LCs. She's in limbo and knows it and its heart breaking - they better come up with something fast, sitting around waiting is not a solution.[/quote]

Does she not have access to her teachers? Obviously not right now as everyone is on Easter Holidays but outside of that?

mirrorwall14

Very nice article this morning and very well written

'We are the Class of Covid-19. Let us prove ourselves.' One Leaving Cert student welcomes the chance to sit the exams
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/leaving-cert-coronavirus-5074423-Apr2020/

am_zarathustra

khalessi wrote: »

This is my concern as the Dept of Education will come up with a half assed plan for the exams and for reopening of schools not taking into account illnesses which prior to Covid19 were not a huge issue to deal with in schools but now could present concerns.

Asthma, CF, diabetes, psoriasis depending on the medications you are on as they can make you immunocompromised, and that is just a few conditions to think about, a lot of stuff that teachers and parents may not be aware of. Hell even being overweight is comorbidity for Covid19

And that is not even before the daily deep clean of all locations used for teaching as Covid can staay on surfaces for up to 72hrs. Bet they are thinking of this regarding exams -not!

It's important to remember the SEC arrange for students to sit exams at home, in rooms alone and in hospitals every year. It's a normal part of planning. If students require isolation that won't be a problem. It falls under reasonable accommodations. I'll be putting at least two immunocompromised students in rooms alone, with a superintendent outside the door and a separate entrance and exit of the school used. Any school can allow for this and have probably had to deal with it on a smaller scale before. Totally understandable that parents would be worried but it's a fairly standard exception to be made in the circumstances

km79

am_zarathustra wrote: »

It's important to remember the SEC arrange for students to sit exams at home, in rooms alone and in hospitals every year. It's a normal part of planning. If students require isolation that won't be a problem. It falls under reasonable accommodations. I'll be putting at least two immunocompromised students in rooms alone, with a superintendent outside the door and a separate entrance and exit of the school used. Any school can allow for this and have probably had to deal with it on a smaller scale before. Totally understandable that parents would be worried but it's a fairly standard exception to be made in the circumstances

What if the student has developed covid during the classroom teaching the week prior ?
Whole year group has to self isolate
Along with teachers (who may be supervisors )
And management?

What if it happens in a lot of schools ?

Looking at the number of cases , deaths and all the talk about social distancing for a while yet I can’t see the LC happening .....

doc_17

I see the practicals continue to be a source of debate. It was stupid in the extreme to award full marks for orals and the music practicals. And it’s stupid in the extreme to expect others to have to sit their practicals as there won’t be fairness in the marking.

Treppen

doc_17 wrote: »

I see the practicals continue to be a source of debate. It was stupid in the extreme to award full marks for orals and the music practicals. And it’s stupid in the extreme to expect others to have to sit their practicals as there won’t be fairness in the marking.

So what would they have done?

km79

Treppen wrote: »

So what would they have done?

Treat them all the same way they treated the orals and music practicals ?

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

What if the student has developed covid during the classroom teaching the week prior ?
Whole year group has to self isolate
Along with teachers (who may be supervisors )
And management?

What if it happens in a lot of schools ?

Looking at the number of cases , deaths and all the talk about social distancing for a while yet I can’t see the LC happening .....

It's a rolling situation though KM, we could be in a more opportune environment in 3 months.

So if anything, it just simply tells students to keep studying and finish out the course as best as possible. The dept will always have to defer to medical advice and I think they'll err on the side of extreme caution when the time comes. Well know more when we know more.

With 50,000 odd students + teachers etc. I'd say the chances of at least one having a case that will make the headlines is high. But it'll be dealt with fairly swiftly.

I suspect they'll need a massive supply of invigilators... Which will be all staff really. I've no doubt they'll let local arrangements allow for staff to opt out for valid reasons.

km79

Treppen wrote: »

It's a rolling situation though KM, we could be in a more opportune environment in 3 months.

So if anything, it just simply tells students to keep studying and finish out the course as best as possible. The dept will always have to defer to medical advice and I think they'll err on the side of extreme caution when the time comes. Well know more when we know more.

Which is why the timing of the announcement was a pure and utter disaster !
Why couldn’t he just have let us all enjoy the holidays and get students back focussed for last term
And maybe used that time to consult more!

Anyway it’s done now

ethical

Unfortunately the Media,who generally have a total dislike of teachers,put a gun to the Ministers head and wanted an answer before the Easter break and the Minister succumbed.
(A bit like Pontius Pilate,he also had the choice to do what he knew and thought was correct yet he ignored his own thoughts went with the popular call and the rest is history!)

linguist

km79: The students and their parents were begging for some clarity. Teachers' Easter holidays were not a factor in this and neither should they have been. A major head of steam was building around this issue and the government had to address it.

I don't know what announcement would not have been a disaster by your or anyone else's standards. This whole situation is a nightmare for everyone. Had he come out and announced that they were going with predicted grades, surely that would have been a much worse outcome for most teachers given the professional implications involved?

I'm really conscious posting this that I don't know what you or anyone here has been going through over the past few weeks and I hope you're doing well. I say that because we should maybe accept that, in the main, we have it pretty good at the moment if our families haven't been directly impacted. Most of us have stable jobs and our personal futures are ok. If you were in Sweden, you'd still be in school risking your health. I don't think the government here has done too badly in managing what is truly a national disaster.

solerina

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Very nice article this morning and very well written

'We are the Class of Covid-19. Let us prove ourselves.' One Leaving Cert student welcomes the chance to sit the exams
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/leaving-cert-coronavirus-5074423-Apr2020/

Her dad is the RTÉ southern correspondent, I’d imagine she had help, but still a nice article.

km79

linguist wrote: »

km79: The students and their parents were begging for some clarity. Teachers' holidays were not a factor in this and neither should they have been. A major head of steam was building around this issue and the government had to address it.

I don't know what announcement would not have been a disaster by your or anyone else's standards. This whole situation is a nightmare for everyone. Had he come out and announced that they were going with predicted grades, surely that would have been a much worse outcome for most teachers given the professional implications involved?

I'm really conscious posting this that I don't know what you or anyone here has been going through over the past few weeks and I hope you're doing well. I say that because we should maybe accept that, in the main, we have it pretty good at the moment if our families haven't been directly impacted. Most of us have stable jobs and our personal futures are ok. If you were in Sweden, you'd still be in school risking your health. I don't think the government here has done too badly in managing what is truly a national disaster.

They haven’t got clarity .

I wouldn’t have made any announcement until the whole proposal was clarified through consultation with all stakeholders
It was exactly what you said it was
An announcement to appease growing media pressure
That’s not his job

You are correct . Our Easter holidays (students and teachers were not a factor . I believe you are incorrect in saying they should not have been
It was/is an extremely stressful period. Those two weeks would have he helped us all recharge ahead of what is likely to now to be one long run on to summer 2021

Anyway I’ve said enough on it . If it has provided such clarity im not sure why there is such an uproar from students, parents in the media .......

shesty

Found this on the main page, and it as an absolute relief to read something that is not "poor us".

Obviously I am operating with the benefit of hindsight but equally I guess I am coming from parents whose attitude was just get on with it.You can't control this, exams need doing, and it's not all about you.I know at 18 that is something you struggle with, but the media's ability to absolutely hype up the LC every sigle year...every single year, the same conversations about the points based system, and how terribly unfair it all is and why won't the Government allow the media access to exam results to publish league tables of schools....every.single.year.

Personally I found my final year college exams to be the single biggest trauma of my academic life, and nobody is writing yards of articles about those.

And every year it passes on and starts all over again in September.It is refreshing to read this article to be honest, makes a very nice change.

You can't control it.So control what you can, and let the rest go.Let the people at paygrades above yours sort out the crappy details and see what comes out in the wash.Anything else is just wasting your time.

And it will all start again in September anyway.

acequion

Treppen wrote: »

I suspect they'll need a massive supply of invigilators... Which will be all staff really. I've no doubt they'll let local arrangements allow for staff to opt out for valid reasons.

What are you implying by this? That on top of working from mid June to the end of July we'll all be in invigilating in August? And then back in September correcting our own JC?

Have people gone totally crazy or is there really no limit as to what teachers are expected to do?

km79

Hope we get a report back from SC today with some clarity around a few of the issues/serious concerns they intend to address

doc_17

Treppen wrote: »

So what would they have done?

The same for everything. Either full marks for all, or delayed for all.

km79

doc_17 wrote: »

The same for everything. Either full marks for all, or delayed for all.

This principal http://twitter.com/TippManInMeath/status/1250505756312580096
making that point and many more of the ones we have been making here (a thread of 16 tweets )
Reassuring to see a like minded school leader .