Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

km79

annamarie2013 wrote: »

Rumblings on the radio and in the paper this morning that our Minister might not be in the final line up after the upcoming cabinet reshuffle.

Oh lord
Just what we need
More uncertainty

mirrorwall14

Christ. Just what we need

Anyone got any advice on what to plan for third years.... I'm over and back on it. TBH I'm not sure there is any longer any benefit in setting them weekly revision work. Its too far out from the exam now and I think it may actually put them off. Maybe just stick to daily classroom content in maths and music and no additional revision? But them I'm not sure do I officially suspend revision or just not check it... My head is fried

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/Steve_360_/status/1250149891269185539

I think that’s a pretty good summary of the current LC “plan”

I think it's just another whataboutery whinge-fest. With zero offers of alternatives.

People are continuously screaming out for contingency plans for X,y and z.... What about this, what if that.

It's a rolling situation so the last thing you do is outline your many contingency plans... And then spend days justifying why it's the best of a bad situation... More explaining, more Joe Duffy... More stress for students. And the media feeds of this hysteria like flies to #####.

randylonghorn

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Christ. Just what we need

Anyone got any advice on what to plan for third years.... I'm over and back on it. TBH I'm not sure there is any longer any benefit in setting them weekly revision work. Its too far out from the exam now and I think it may actually put them off. Maybe just stick to daily classroom content in maths and music and no additional revision? But them I'm not sure do I officially suspend revision or just not check it... My head is fried

What can you do with them that is broadly relevant to JC curriculum but still relevant to / a good foundation for 5th year / LC?

Just a thought, mind you, and from someone who doesn't teach at second-level, so feel free to :rolleyes: and ignore!

mirrorwall14

randylonghorn wrote: »

What can you do with them that is broadly relevant to JC curriculum but still relevant to / a good foundation for 5th year / LC?

Just a thought, mind you, and from someone who doesn't teach at second-level, so feel free to :rolleyes: and ignore!

Oh that’s definitely a given, going to focus on LC relevant content in class time. But normally they’d be following a revision plan too. I’m not sure there’s any point now

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Christ. Just what we need

Anyone got any advice on what to plan for third years.... I'm over and back on it. TBH I'm not sure there is any longer any benefit in setting them weekly revision work. Its too far out from the exam now and I think it may actually put them off. Maybe just stick to daily classroom content in maths and music and no additional revision? But them I'm not sure do I officially suspend revision or just not check it... My head is fried

My 3rd year and LC courses are finished
Had laid out revision plans for remainder of year for both before the Easter break (no longer calling it holidays )
Back online today now amending it so they take the rest of time off

No idea what we will do for the next 6 weeks
Focus will be on 1/2/5th years more so now
They will most certainly be losing time in September

Have a feeling we will be back here next Easter with more “once off “ demands for work in June this time

randylonghorn

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

But normally they’d be following a revision plan too. I’m not sure there’s any point now

None whatsoever, if we're looking at a silly JC-in-house-test-for-the-sake-of-it-scenario. Worst of both worlds imho.

Either cancel it to hell altogether (which leaves 5-7k students who won't do LC with absolutely nothing to show for their school years) or hold proper JC exams.

Anything in between is just political tomfoolery.

km79

randylonghorn wrote: »

None whatsoever, if we're looking at a silly JC-in-house-test-for-the-sake-of-it-scenario. Worst of both worlds imho.

Either cancel it to hell altogether (which leaves 5-7k students who won't do LC with absolutely nothing to show for their school years) or hold proper JC exams.

Anything in between is just political tomfoolery.

They will have their JCPA which was brought in to recognize the work all students did inside and outside the classroom over their three years
That is why I can’t for the life of me work out why they haven’t just cancelled it
Unless is intentionally in their as a bargaining chip so the unions can be seen to get a “win” on that one

randylonghorn

km79 wrote: »

That is why I can’t for the life of me work out why they haven’t just cancelled it
Unless is intentionally in their as a bargaining chip so the unions can be seen to get a “win” on that one

In fairness, km, much as it offends me, I acknowledge the possibility that you may be spot on the mark.

rainbowtrout

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Clearly you didn't read my post properly - I said give ALL the children a pass LC (if they fulfill the criteria I mentioned), if they want it so that they have a LC (not a mickey mouse piece of paper) so they can do PLC courses, work or apprenticeships and get on with their lives.

Then do exams, when safe to do so, for the children that want to go to college for points - there is no other reason to sit exams only for points. Personally I think they should do a matriculation exam for college entry - like we used to.

You know, you have a very shortsighted view of education. A lot of kids who don't go on to third level still want to have a Leaving Cert and take pride in passing those exams. PLCs look for LC grades, where apprenticeships are competitive, the ones with the better LC will be picked over the ones who don't. How does the lad who wants to apply for an ESB apprenticeship prove that he has a decent capability in maths for example if he has no Leaving Cert to show that? To join an Garda Siochana you must have a Leaving Cert with 5 passes including Maths and Irish or English. Want to cut that route off to students who don't want to go to third level as well? If you want to become an EMT you have to have a Leaving Cert with 6 passes including a science subject? Let's cut that route off too.

A cert saying they attended school for five years doesn't cut it, it doesn't differentiate them from the rest. It doesn't differentiate the student who might have found school difficult but worked hard to get average grades from the student who spent five years swinging on a chair at the back of the room doing nothing. Even for those who go out and work, passing 7 subject in the LC tells an employer that they have a work ethic and stuck it out.

It's awful to think that you think that those students don't deserve to have their achievements recognised and that only the ones going to third level should be afforded an exam that can open doors for them. It's quite elitist really.

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You know, you have a very shortsighted view of education. A lot of kids who don't go on to third level still want to have a Leaving Cert and take pride in passing those exams. PLCs look for LC grades, where apprenticeships are competitive, the ones with the better LC will be picked over the ones who don't. How does the lad who wants to apply for an ESB apprenticeship prove that he has a decent capability in maths for example if he has no Leaving Cert to show that? To join an Garda Siochana you must have a Leaving Cert with 5 passes including Maths and Irish or English. Want to cut that route off to students who don't want to go to third level as well? If you want to become an EMT you have to have a Leaving Cert with 6 passes including a science subject? Let's cut that route off too.

A cert saying they attended school for five years doesn't cut it, it doesn't differentiate them from the rest. It doesn't differentiate the student who might have found school difficult but worked hard to get average grades from the student who spent five years swinging on a chair at the back of the room doing nothing. Even for those who go out and work, passing 7 subject in the LC tells an employer that they have a work ethic and stuck it out.

It's awful to think that you think that those students don't deserve to have their achievements recognised and that only the ones going to third level should be afforded an exam that can open doors for them. It's quite elitist really.

All true C, but draw your fking horns in, lass.

If I had a kid who was asthmatic I'd be scared as fk right now.

And I wouldn't fking apologise for it to anyone either!

rainbowtrout

randylonghorn wrote: »

All true C, but draw your fking horns in, lass.

If I had a kid who was asthmatic I'd be scared as fk right now.

And I wouldn't fking apologise for it to anyone either!

There's a difference between not wanting your child to sit an exam because they have a health issue (understandable) and saying that kids who aren't going to college shouldn't sit the Leaving Cert and just be given a certificate of attendance.

khalessi

randylonghorn wrote: »

All true C, but draw your fking horns in, lass.

If I had a kid who was asthmatic I'd be scared as fk right now.

And I wouldn't fking apologise for it to anyone either!

This is my concern as the Dept of Education will come up with a half assed plan for the exams and for reopening of schools not taking into account illnesses which prior to Covid19 were not a huge issue to deal with in schools but now could present concerns.

Asthma, CF, diabetes, psoriasis depending on the medications you are on as they can make you immunocompromised, and that is just a few conditions to think about, a lot of stuff that teachers and parents may not be aware of. Hell even being overweight is comorbidity for Covid19

And that is not even before the daily deep clean of all locations used for teaching as Covid can staay on surfaces for up to 72hrs. Bet they are thinking of this regarding exams -not!

randylonghorn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There's a difference between not wanting your child to sit an exam because they have a health issue (understandable) and saying that kids who aren't going to college shouldn't sit the Leaving Cert and just be given a certificate of attendance.

Yes, there is, I agree. I think my previous posts illustrated that I agree. And why.

Just ... remember that not all of us have been thinking about these issues at a deeper level for years, eh?

That this shítstorm has hit many decent people where it hurts ... unexpectedly.

And hell, I don't think I'm a stupid guy. But I still don't deal with the unexpected that well ...

It wasnt me123

Why can't a LC be issued based on the last two years of school - mock results, test results and school work completion.

It won't be a worthless piece of paper - it will be based on completion of work. Teachers can provide this information.

School should be about educating yourself - not just the ability to complete an exam at the end of 12 years.

And yes, my daughter is asthmatic and she won't be sitting in a classroom anytime soon. She's actually terrified of leaving the house due to all the conflicting information online.

We should remember that these are children, they do not have the life skills to deal with issues like most adults do and saying man up, is not going to make it any easier for them. They suffer from anxiety, mental health issues, self harming etc, things we never dealt with when we went to school.

I don't have all the answers but leaving them in limbo, with limited access to tutoring is not the way to go. I think its a ****ty way to treat them.

HerrKuehn

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Why can't a LC be issued based on the last two years of school - mock results, test results and school work completion.

It won't be a worthless piece of paper - it will be based on completion of work. Teachers can provide this information.

School should be about educating yourself - not just the ability to complete an exam at the end of 12 years.

And yes, my daughter is asthmatic and she won't be sitting in a classroom anytime soon. She's actually terrified of leaving the house due to all the conflicting information online.

We should remember that these are children, they do not have the life skills to deal with issues like most adults do and saying man up, is not going to make it any easier for them. They suffer from anxiety, mental health issues, self harming etc, things we never dealt with when we went to school.

I don't have all the answers but leaving them in limbo, with limited access to tutoring is not the way to go. I think its a ****ty way to treat them.

Most of them will be 18 sitting the leaving cert. When they walk out the door of the last exam they are not children anymore. They are adults who will have to make their own way in life. There will be no path set out for them anymore. They need to figure things out for themselves. Some of them will miss out on their dream course by a few points. Some of them will go to college and come out to a great jobs market, get the graduate job they want etc. Others will come out in a recession and struggle. There will be nothing fair about any of it.

Treppen

I reckon the department will leave it to 'local arrangements' as regards Junior Cert. Schools will inevitably consult parents and the consensus will be to scrap it for this year and carry on.

Department are doing us all a favour by not scrapping it now. Only a few weeks teaching left so let's just play along and teach out the course for the junior certs.

Organising in-house junior cert exams at the start of a new year will never fly.
Sec can keep whatever papers they can for next year.

History Queen

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Why can't a LC be issued based on the last two years of school - mock results, test results and school work completion.

It won't be a worthless piece of paper - it will be based on completion of work. Teachers can provide this information.

School should be about educating yourself - not just the ability to complete an exam at the end of 12 years.

And yes, my daughter is asthmatic and she won't be sitting in a classroom anytime soon. She's actually terrified of leaving the house due to all the conflicting information online.

We should remember that these are children, they do not have the life skills to deal with issues like most adults do and saying man up, is not going to make it any easier for them. They suffer from anxiety, mental health issues, self harming etc, things we never dealt with when we went to school.

I don't have all the answers but leaving them in limbo, with limited access to tutoring is not the way to go. I think its a ****ty way to treat them.

Predicted grades are hugely problematic for lots of reasons. A potentially more unfair system for students than having their exam deferred by two months as no way of knowing what teachers would have to base those predictions on . No way of ensuring consistancy.

Also students may not have right to appeal the predicted grades. They can appeal Leaving Cert results. I know students are stressed but not getting a course/points because a teacher guessed your result would be much more stressful. At least with a deferred exam they have more study time and a chance to fulfil their potential.

Remember things change very quickly with this virus. We're talking about exams potentially taking place in 3 or 4 months and only if it is safe to do so. 3 months ago life was normal. Things can change quickly. The other alternative for your daughter if you both deem it too dangerous to sit exams this year is to repeat next year. Obviously not ideal but it is an option worth considering. May not suit your individual circumstances but it might be worth investigating as a viable alternative.

political analyst

How about having all primary and secondary schools repeat the academic year at their respective levels - and thus delaying the entry of infants into primary school by a year - so that this year's LC students can repeat the academic year and thus sit the exams next year?

TheDriver

political analyst wrote: »

How about having all primary and secondary schools repeat the academic year at their respective levels - and thus delaying the entry of infants into primary school by a year - so that this year's LC students can repeat the academic year and thus sit the exams next year?

It would unfortunately push life on a year forever plus no graduates in 4 years time for anything. Lots of college lay offs. No space in ecce.

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

It would unfortunately push life on a year forever plus no graduates in 4 years time for anything. Lots of college lay offs. No space in ecce.

I imagine we may well have a lot of students repeating the LC depending on how this plays out

History Queen

It wasn't me123, this is worth a read. Specifically acknowledges the issue around vulnerable students such as your daughter. The Dept are aware of and looking in to contingencies for students in her situation. A little reassurance for her maybe?

https://www.tui.ie/news/%E2%80%98compassion-and-flexibility-required-to-help-vulnerable-exam-students%E2%80%99-%E2%80%93-tui.13732.html

Jajadog

Wrt predicted grades, teachers had no problem predicting my 3 children’s grades (during exam years) at any parent teacher meeting we went to. The predictions were volunteered by them without us ever asking for them . Most actually proved right, have one sitting LC this year and once again we were told by teachers at his parent teacher meeting what the expected grades would be.

History Queen

Jajadog wrote: »

Wrt predicted grades, teachers had no problem predicting my 3 children’s grades (during exam years) at any parent teacher meeting we went to. The predictions were volunteered by them without us ever asking for them . Most actually proved right, have one sitting LC this year and once again we were told by teachers at his parent teacher meeting what the expected grades would be.

I'm a teacher and have no problem offering my opinion on attainable grades for students at parent teacher meetings. I am clear though that it is my opinion based on what I have seen in class and to date but that it is not necessarily reflective of what will happen on the day of the exam. You acknowledge yourself that not all were correct.

They can't be, because at the end of the day they are educated guesses, some more educated than others. A teacher with three years experience for example of teaching English cannot be expected to predict grades for a higher level English student with the same degree of accuracy as a teacher with 15 years teaching experience and 10 years experience as a Leaving certificate examiner. Someteachers may only be teaching their students for this academic year, otherswillhave taught their students since first year. Leaving aside issues such as substitute teachers/teachers on maternity leave/sick leave etc.

There are huge issues with it as an idea, most to the detriment of the student.

political analyst

TheDriver wrote: »

It would unfortunately push life on a year forever plus no graduates in 4 years time for anything. Lots of college lay offs. No space in ecce.

Ecce?

MacGyver007

political analyst wrote: »

Ecce?

Early Childhood Care and Education

Treppen

Jajadog wrote: »

Wrt predicted grades, teachers had no problem predicting my 3 children’s grades (during exam years) at any parent teacher meeting we went to. The predictions were volunteered by them without us ever asking for them . Most actually proved right, have one sitting LC this year and once again we were told by teachers at his parent teacher meeting what the expected grades would be.

I'm in a grind school so I predict all will get H1s because they've been putting in a Trojan amount of work lately.

JustJoe7240

Treppen wrote: »

I reckon the department will leave it to 'local arrangements' as regards Junior Cert. Schools will inevitably consult parents and the consensus will be to scrap it for this year and carry on.

Department are doing us all a favour by not scrapping it now. Only a few weeks teaching left so let's just play along and teach out the course for the junior certs.

Organising in-house junior cert exams at the start of a new year will never fly.
Sec can keep whatever papers they can for next year.

When you say "carry on", do you mean just sit the exams in June 2021 and return to school whenever this normalises as if it's the start of their LC year?

Inspector Coptoor

All of this years LCs doing the exam next June with that cohort just cannot happen.
120,000 doing the LC?

So many issues.
Students who thought they were done with school in a few weeks having to put their lives on hold for a year?

In the school I work in, TY is compulsory so most students are 18 already and quite a few are 19.
Imagine being 20 and still in school?
Points for courses would sky rocket

political analyst

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

All of this years LCs doing the exam next June with that cohort just cannot happen.
120,000 doing the LC?

So many issues.
Students who thought they were done with school in a few weeks having to put their lies on hold for a year?

In the school I work in, TY is compulsory so most students are 18 already and quite a few are 19.
Imagine being 20 and still in school?
Points for courses would sky rocket

I know you meant "lives" but that is quite an unfortunate typo!