How will schools be able to go back in September?

downthemiddle

political analyst wrote: »

The pandemic will fizzle out by the end of August.

Thanks Donald.

Boggles

political analyst wrote: »

The pandemic will fizzle out by the end of August.

UV and toilet duck.

Be grand!

seamus

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Sums up my feelings perfectly.

I've seen a number of people online talk about how this is the start of all education moving to an almost entirely remote platform.

I can only imagine these are individuals in their mid-20s whose primary qualification was practically all lectures and reading, and so they can't conceive of situations where videos on youtube and PDF documents are insufficient teaching tools.

Remote, even blended learning, is not workable for children under 16.

plodder

seamus wrote: »

I've seen a number of people online talk about how this is the start of all education moving to an almost entirely remote platform.

I can only imagine these are individuals in their mid-20s whose primary qualification was practically all lectures and reading, and so they can't conceive of situations where videos on youtube and PDF documents are insufficient teaching tools.

Remote, even blended learning, is not workable for children under 16.

It's been a trend for a number of years at third level, and even there it is controversial (remember the fuss with primary teacher training a couple years back), but agreed it's not a runner at primary or second level at all.

wirelessdude01

I see that my use of blended learning/teaching ha upset some of you. Lets be clear here that I DESTEST online/remote teaching. However having said that we have to wake up to the very real reality of the situtation that we could be facing. We will more than likely have to engage with online some in some form or other going forward, either part-time or if schools were to be closed again full time online .

As regards 'hounding' parents for engagement. I have some great parents who pick and choose what to do. I however have others who do nothing with their children. These are then the very same parents who accost the principal in Tesco saying that I do nothing. Me contacting them saying that they need to do stuff is my minding my backside. I've so much stuff setup online that can monitor and track when they have logged into stuff that no one can turn around and lie about accessing stuff when infact the login records say different.

Give me a normal day in school anyday over this rubbish.

wirelessdude01

seamus wrote: »

Remote, even blended learning, is not workable for children under 16.

I 100% agree with you but circumstances can and probably will dictate that remote/online/blended will form part of education at different times over the coming year or two. If this is the case then we as educators will just have to get on with it. I hate and detest it as it doesn't suit my personality. That was the reason I didn't choose Hibernia route but now needs must and we as educators have to put our best foot forward for the children in our classes.

mcsean2163

Looking at the Italian deaths up to may 25th : https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

There were 31,546 deaths. Of those, 78 were in the age category under 40.

There appears to be less risk of death to those under 40, than from driving a car and yet that age bracket is allowed to drive.

Surely the schools could be run by the staff that are age 40 and below with anyone immuno-compromised excused? Those above 40 could decide for themselves whether they were at risk or not and decide to return or not.

The average age for covid19 related deaths is 82 (https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casesinireland/epidemiologyofcovid-19inireland/COVID-19%20Daily_epidemiology_report_(NPHET)_02062020_website_v1.pdf). That is actually higher than life expectancy in Ireland!!

Did you know that over half of nursing home residents die within the first two years (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/study-reveals-nursing-home-death-rate-1.747254). I didn't until I looked. How does the terrible toll of COVID-19 related deaths in nursing homes compare with the normal death rate? I don't know but would be keen to find out.

Is this a mass hysteria, that some people are using as a holiday? Am I reading the statistics completely wrong and if so can someone explain to me what I am doing wrong?

It seems completely unfair to me to forbid children from playing with their friends and making them stay at home. Am I going bonkers? Can anyone explain to me why the schools are closed?

Boggles

mcsean2163 wrote: »

There appears to be less risk of death to those under 40, than from driving a car and yet that age bracket is allowed to drive.

We let people from 40-79 drive and beyond that in fact.

13,000+ from that age brackett died from Corona virus in Italy.

What the fúck is your point?

Driving or road accidents is not a global pandemic, it's a moronic false equivalency.

mcsean2163

Boggles wrote: »

We let people from 40-79 drive and beyond that in fact.

13,000+ from that age brackett died from Corona virus in Italy.

What the fúck is your point?

Driving or road accidents is not a global pandemic, it's a moronic false equivalency.

What the fúck is your point?

I have just put forward a proposal for those for whom there is virtually no risk to continue as normal, i.e. the age bracket under 40. People under 40 not working and schools being closed is not helping cocooning older or immuno-compromised people in the least to battle coronavirus.

Your language and response is provocative and offensive. Surely you can understand my point that people in nursing homes do not go to school and human have a life expectancy.

Maybe you could highlight the part you do not understand so that we can have a discussion?

Boggles

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I have just put forward a proposal

I must have missed that. 40 years or below working in schools is unworkable.

You used the same old tired nonsense of X die from this, therefore once in a generation global pandemic can't be bad.

It's been done to death, it's boring and it shows a complete lack of intelligence towards an unprecedented situation.

Be a good parent and a good human, follow the restrictions. For everone's sake.

downthemiddle

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Surely the schools could be run by the staff that are age 40 and below with anyone immuno-compromised excused? Those above 40 could decide for themselves whether they were at risk or not and decide to return or not.

Teachers start working at 22/23 years of age. The earliest they can retire is 55. Your proposal eliminates approximately 50% of teachers. The vast majority of management in schools would be over the age of 40 which means there would be nobody to run the schools under your proposal. There is already a shortage of teachers. I'm afraid your suggestion, is at best, misguided.
One of the main issues around any debate on schools is that the majority of the general population have no idea how complex schools are. There are many well meaning suggestions but totally impractical in reality.

mcsean2163

Boggles wrote: »

I must have missed that. 40 years or below working in schools is unworkable.

You used the same old tired nonsense of X die from this, therefore once in a generation global pandemic can't be bad.

It's been done to death, it's boring and it shows a complete lack of intelligence towards an unprecedented situation.

Be a good parent and a good human, follow the restrictions. For everone's sake.

You used the same old tired nonsense of X die from this, therefore once in a generation global pandemic can't be bad.

I'm not sure why you are calling statistical facts nonsense. From Italy, under 40's virtually no problem, same applies in Sweden. Maybe you can explain why we should lock up a cohort of people that are not at risk? FWIW, I'm over 40 and would gladly take my chances to go back to normal. Hopefully I don't become a statistic but at least if I ended up in hospital the curve has been flattened.

khalessi

mcsean2163 wrote: »

You used the same old tired nonsense of X die from this, therefore once in a generation global pandemic can't be bad.

I'm not sure why you are calling statistical facts nonsense. From Italy, under 40's virtually no problem, same applies in Sweden. Maybe you can explain why we should lock up a cohort of people that are not at risk? FWIW, I'm over 40 and would gladly take my chances to go back to normal. Hopefully I don't become a statistic but at least if I ended up in hospital the curve has been flattened.

Like yourself every teacher here would like to go back to normal, but it will be a new normal and schools will not be receiving guidance from Dept of Ed for another few days possibly Friday(they like Fridays, perhaps they are Cure fans) but more than likely next week, but here is their contact details for any questions or advice you can offer.

https://www.education.ie/en/contact-us/

Dublingirl80

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I'm the same, I'd typically come into contact with about 40-50 people through work each day. That's approx 250 different people on an average week.

That's nothing compared to the numbers that supermarket workers must encounter but its still a large amount of people in close quarters, enough to make my contact list a nightmare if someone had to do contact tracing on me.

Where I work there's been a few changes around hygiene, hand sanitiser, PPE, temperature checks and some minor measures have been taken to maximise the available space and minimise any unnecessary contact.

I can think of hundreds of occupations where this would also be the case and there are thousands of people returning to work every week now.

It is a risk but personally I feel I'm OK with it, the fear of the virus goes away very fast once you're interacting with so many people on a daily basis, my other option is to find myself unemployed so I just have to get on with it.

I don't think numbers of short contacts in a safe environment is the issue, it's too many in a small room for way longer than 15 mins every day. I'm pretty sure no places open currently have 30 people in a room the size if a classroom let alone kids who probably can't socially distance. If your job currently had 30 people in a small room it would be shut down for health and safety reasons.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

If your job currently had 30 people in a small room it would be shut down for health and safety reasons.

Actually very unlikely, the HSA has received over 200 complaints, and not a single one of the 200 workplaces allegedly breaching Covid-19 guidelines were inspected.

That's now, phase 1 where there's a limited number of places open. Don't know how they'll enforce anything when everywhere is open.

Obviously some staff aren't happy that the guidelines aren't being adhered to, and their concerns have not been taken seriously.

Wuhan factory workers being tested (they have tested 10m+ of the population in Wuhan) just an example of how fast social distancing is forgotten about post lockdown.

Out of interest only 300 positive cases were found (out of 10 million tested) with no infections among 1,174 close contacts of the people who tested positive, suggesting they were not spreading the virus easily to others.

Boggles

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I'm not sure why you are calling statistical facts nonsense.

I'm not calling "facts" nonsense, I'm calling your false equivalency nonsense.

Car accidents are not contagious.

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Maybe you can explain why we should lock up a cohort of people that are not at risk?

You are not "locked" up stop with the hyperbole.

mcsean2163 wrote: »

FWIW, I'm over 40 and would gladly take my chances to go back to normal.

Good for you, but if you get infected statistically you will be responsible for infecting someone else.

So we are not just dealing with you and your wants anymore are we?

mcsean2163 wrote: »

I don't become a statistic but at least if I ended up in hospital the curve has been flattened.

No idea what that means.

Dublingirl80

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Actually very unlikely, the HSA has received over 200 complaints, and not a single one of the 200 workplaces allegedly breaching Covid-19 guidelines were inspected.

That's now, phase 1 where there's a limited number of places open. Don't know how they'll enforce anything when everywhere is open.

Obviously some staff aren't happy that the guidelines aren't being adhered to, and their concerns have not been taken seriously.

Wuhan factory workers being tested (they have tested 10m+ of the population in Wuhan) just an example of how fast social distancing is forgotten about post lockdown.

Out of interest only 300 positive cases were found (out of 10 million tested) with no infections among 1,174 close contacts of the people who tested positive, suggesting they were not spreading the virus easily to others.

I would be very surprised if 30 people in a small room with no distance was allowed. The complaints weren't necessarily for that. I think we just have to see what the situation is like by August as far as numbers go.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Dublingirl80 wrote: »

I would be very surprised if 30 people in a small room with no distance was allowed. The complaints weren't necessarily for that. I think we just have to see what the situation is like by August as far as numbers go.

It's the fact that the precedent has been set,
200 complaints where someone felt the guidelines were being breached and nothing done about it.

Places are not being closed down, they aren't even being inspected.

Employers will be allowed to more or less do what they like and it will be a case of put up and shut up for workers.

downthemiddle

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

It's the fact that the precedent has been set,
200 complaints where someone felt the guidelines were being breached and nothing done about it.

Places are not being closed down, they aren't even being inspected.

Employers will be allowed to more or less do what they like and it will be a case of put up and shut up for workers.

So you agree that teachers, and school authorities, are correct to be very concerned about reopening as their safety, and the safety of the children, won't be taken seriously. I'm glad we cleared that up.

wirelessdude01

downthemiddle wrote: »

So you agree that teachers, and school authorities, are correct to be very concerned about reopening as their safety, and the safety of the children, won't be taken seriously. I'm glad we cleared that up.

😂

mcsean2163

Boggles wrote: »

I'm not calling "facts" nonsense, I'm calling your false equivalency nonsense.

Car accidents are not contagious.



You are not "locked" up stop with the hyperbole.



Good for you, but if you get infected statistically you will be responsible for infecting someone else.

So we are not just dealing with you and your wants anymore are we?





No idea what that means.

Good for you, but if you get infected statistically you will be responsible for infecting someone else.

If I got infected, I wouldn't directly infect a vulnerable person cocooning or in a nursing home. My proposal is under 40s and those above that consider themselves safe. I'd be happy to wear a mask in my workplace too.

Look at the supermarkets, virtually no infections.

People die from cancer, influenza, tb, stroke, heart complications. Sporting events cause 'spikes' in death, https://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/shows.php?shows=0_mmbpdbbu

Your logic seems to be shut everything down forever because some people could die? I don't mean to be mean but dying has been a normal event in a persons life for a long time.

Seriously, what is the government doing? Still no contact tracing app. I was on a team that had active devices reporting GPS location every 15 seconds across three continents. I could have rolled out an app on my own in a month. We should be in a position to effectively electronically trace contagion like in Korea. Instead, we are in permanent social distancing with schools closed, government employees on holidays and people freely mixing in real life (mothers, children, supermarket workers and builders for example).

So, yes. I would be in favour of those who want (especially under 40) being allowed to return to work.

No idea what that means.

In Ireland we had a thing called flatten the curve to ensure that hospitals were not overrun. Job done... a month ago.

Look, I certainly don't want anyone to die but given actual facts,

1. Children not significantly contributing to spread, "https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0513/1138100-hiqa-coronavirus-review/".
2. Extremely low rate of death below 40.
3. Most of our covid19 related deaths occurred in nursing homes which have very high death rates, (53% die within 2 years, 20% in first 3 months).

I personally see a strong case for limited reopening of schools by people under 40 and those above that consider themselves safe, i.e. don't have a co-morbidity etc.

You on the other hand seem to be very dismissive of what I consider a reasonable attempt to reopen. It makes me wonder if you are a teacher on permanent vacation?

I don't have all the facts, I list the facts I am looking at. I'd like the government to explain what the heck they are doping because I can't understand it.

Boggles

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Out of interest only 300 positive cases were found (out of 10 million tested) with no infections among 1,174 close contacts of the people who tested positive, suggesting they were not spreading the virus easily to others.

It's not surprising.

But you certainly can't compare Wuhan and their "methods" with any country in Europe.

Boggles

mcsean2163 wrote: »

If I got infected, I wouldn't directly infect a vulnerable person cocooning or in a nursing home.

How do you know you wouldn't?

Is it okay to indirectly infect someone?

I mean that's how highly contagious viruses work, I imagine the person that infected you thought the same.

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Your logic seems to be shut everything down forever because some people could die?

It's not my "logic", I'm neither a epidemiologist or a public health official.

mcsean2163 wrote: »

In Ireland we had a thing called flatten the curve to ensure that hospitals are not overrun. Job done... a month ago.

Jaysus, "job done"?

Flattening the curve is an ongoing exercise.

Boggles

mcsean2163 wrote: »

You on the other hand seem to be very dismissive of what I consider a reasonable attempt to reopen. It makes me wonder if you are a teacher on permanent vacation?

Didn't take long for veil to slip. :rolleyes:

No I am not a teacher.

I am someone who understands if we need to go into "lockdown" again, that is where the real social and economic hardship will kick in, not hibernation but a full on economic crash with real job losses and all the associate ills that will come with it.

Some Captain Controversy who is sick of the kids whittling nonsense on the internet doesn't change that actual hard fact.

It's been done to death, don't be boring for God sake.

mcsean2163

khalessi wrote: »

Like yourself every teacher here would like to go back to normal, but it will be a new normal and schools will not be receiving guidance from Dept of Ed for another few days possibly Friday(they like Fridays, perhaps they are Cure fans) but more than likely next week, but here is their contact details for any questions or advice you can offer.

https://www.education.ie/en/contact-us/

Thanks Khalessi. My daughter goes to a Deis school in Dublin 8 where there are 20 in the class. Even if she did a day a week, it would be of enormous benefit. There could be 5 per class 4 days a week. I'd teach myself if I was allowed to bring the two other children under 5.

We are probably the only family in Ireland still abiding by the social distancing rules and my daughter is upset. "Why are they with their friends and I am not?". Everyday unfairness, a government that doesn't give a toss about children and nothing happening etc. My wife is a hospital worker so, yeah, I know about the useless PPE that frontline workers had to use when treating patients and the huge hospital infection rate.

• Hospitals open
• Nursing homes open
• Police open
• Supermarkets open
• DIY stores open

Schools closed.

Since when are schools not essential? Surely under 40s could run a skeleton service. Not allowing children to play together (government) is just mean in light of recent evidence and closing the schools...?

Hubertj

mcsean2163 wrote: »

Thanks Khalessi. My daughter goes to a Deis school in Dublin 8 where there are 20 in the class. Even if she did a day a week, it would be of enormous benefit. There could be 5 per class 4 days a week. I'd teach myself if I was allowed to bring the two other children under 5.

We are probably the only family in Ireland still abiding by the social distancing rules and my daughter is upset. "Why are they with their friends and I am not?". Everyday unfairness, a government that doesn't give a toss about children and nothing happening etc. My wife is a hospital worker so, yeah, I know about the useless PPE that frontline workers had to use when treating patients and the huge hospital infection rate.

• Hospitals open
• Nursing homes open
• Police open
• Supermarkets open
• DIY stores open

Schools closed.

Since when are schools not essential? Surely under 40s could run a skeleton service. Not allowing children to play together (government) is just mean in light of recent evidence and closing the schools...?

unions will, as usual, make things far more difficult than they need to be. Decisions should be made by health experts, guidance given to dept of education and that guidance put into action. Not sure why the unions are being so vocal. Likely they will look for more money or some nonsense like that. Just get back to work like EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN EUROPE.

mcsean2163

Boggles wrote: »

Didn't take long for veil to slip. :rolleyes:

No I am not a teacher.

I am someone who understands if we need to go into "lockdown" again, that is where the real social and economic hardship will kick in, not hibernation but a full on economic crash with real job losses and all the associate ills that will come with it.

Some Captain Controversy who is sick of the kids whittling nonsense on the internet doesn't change that actual hard fact.

It's been done to death, don't be boring for God sake.

There is no veil. I see no teachers volunteering and we have been getting one blog a week I do with my daughter. A friend who is a secondary teacher thinks it is ridiculous. I know there are a lot of good teachers out there but also fear a lot of others are very happy to take the time out.

Friend in Chicago's child of same age was given an ipad and has a detailed schedule of work for everyday. The work has to be submitted each day and is corrected. Here, a blog a week.

Some Captain Controversy who is sick of the kids whittling nonsense on the internet doesn't change that actual hard fact.



Look you're right, this is a stupid place to come. You've been rude and insulting, You are not offering constructive criticism and I'm wasting my time responding to your insults.

History Queen

Hubertj wrote: »

unions will, as usual, make things far more difficult than they need to be. Decisions should be made by health experts, guidance given to dept of education and that guidance put into action. Not sure why the unions are being so vocal. Likely they will look for more money or some nonsense like that. Just get back to work like EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN EUROPE.

Do you know what the role of a union is? Your post indicates thst you don't. Also what do you mean by the unions being "so vocal"? And finally, every other country in Europe is not back to work.

History Queen

mcsean2163 wrote: »

There is no veil. I see no teachers volunteering and we have been getting one blog a week I do with my daughter. A friend who is a secondary teacher thinks it is ridiculous. I know there are a lot of good teachers out there but also fear a lot of others are very happy to take the time out.

Friend in Chicago's child of same age was given an ipad and has a detailed schedule of work for everyday. The work has to be submitted each day and is corrected. Here, a blog a week.

Some Captain Controversy who is sick of the kids whittling nonsense on the internet doesn't change that actual hard fact.



Look you're right, this is a stupid place to come. You've been rude and insulting, You are not offering constructive criticism and I'm wasting my time responding to your insults.

You really should contact the Department of Education with your concerns if you have already attempted to address them with the school to no avail.

Boggles

mcsean2163 wrote: »

• Hospitals open
• Nursing homes open
• Police open
• Supermarkets open
• DIY stores open

Schools closed.

WTF?

You can't close hospitals or nursing homes, but they most certainly are not "open".

Police open :pac:

Supermarkets - We would all be dead if they weren't open.

DIY stores are open for a valid reason.

Schools are closed because there is no clear plan on how to open them, Teachers didn't close the schools.

You are citing examples of schools been open to a limited to degree with very different varying ways of doing it, the main way seems to be employ more teachers and staff.

You want to operate the schools on a "skeleton" crew, it's unworkable and nonsensical, you would understand that if you took the time to study the examples you are citing.