Creche charging for child's place during closure.

jlm29

salmocab wrote: »

I’d say insurance would be one of the simplest parts to sort out.

Well hopefully someone will sort something, to make it simpler for those that need it most

salmocab

jlm29 wrote: »

Well hopefully someone will sort something, to make it simpler for those that need it most

I wouldn’t hold my breath on that one, best to keep an eye out for service providers that are offering services to front line staff. There are crèches doing this but unfortunately as time goes on they won’t be able to pay staff as they won’t have any payments coming in.

Babooshka

This is a f$cking sh!tshow....what other industry has people over a barrel except this one...it's the privatisation of childcare and neglect of any properly implemented subsidies to parents from the state to blame. Paying for a full service and receiving nothing in return....a complete pile of horse ****e.

pwurple

You're saying the privatisation of childcare, like there was a public system to begin with...

Creches have evolved, been created by entrepreneurial hardworking small business women (for the most part), to help the rest of us out. To provide a service where none existed. There was no such thing as a creche when I was a baby. Childcare facility regulations didn't even exist here in this country until 2006. First aid, management, staff-child ratios, behaviour management, fire safety measures, premises and facilities, heating, ventilation, lighting, facilities for rest and play... all that was defined in 2006. That expense, those regulations, all of it fell on creches to build and pay for. This is when the HSE started to regulate and inspect creches.

It was 2009 before a curriculum appeared. Aistear, followed by the first phase of ECCE 2010. Second phase of ECCE was end of 2016. Slowly, ebbing towards some shape of a public system.

Childcare education in colleges has appeared, where there was none before. All driven by, built and lobbied for by our hardworking childcare sector. I know women who set up creches and also teach in these college courses. Building , building, building.


What I'm saying is, we have a heck of a lot to thank our childcare sector workers and creche owners for.

I support them!

lawred2

pwurple wrote: »

You're saying the privatisation of childcare, like there was a public system to begin with...

Creches have evolved, been created by entrepreneurial hardworking small business women (for the most part), to help the rest of us out. To provide a service where none existed. There was no such thing as a creche when I was a baby. Childcare facility regulations didn't even exist here in this country until 2006. First aid, management, staff-child ratios, behaviour management, fire safety measures, premises and facilities, heating, ventilation, lighting, facilities for rest and play... all that was defined in 2006. That expense, those regulations, all of it fell on creches to build and pay for. This is when the HSE started to regulate and inspect creches.

It was 2009 before a curriculum appeared. Aistear, followed by the first phase of ECCE 2010. Second phase of ECCE was end of 2016. Slowly, ebbing towards some shape of a public system.

Childcare education in colleges has appeared, where there was none before. All driven by, built and lobbied for by our hardworking childcare sector. I know women who set up creches and also teach in these college courses. Building , building, building.


What I'm saying is, we have a heck of a lot to thank our childcare sector workers and creche owners for.

I support them!

And that's why people significant fees on a monthly basis.

That isn't up for discussion here though.

This is parents being expected to continue paying fees for a service not being in receipt of. Show me one other sector of society where that holds? Regulations or not?

GreeBo

Strumms wrote: »

Essentially what the creche is doing is trying to bully people into keeping their revenue stream open and flowing while not providing the service that they are being paid for... while they wait it out if I’m a parent I’m looking for alternative facilities.

Scenario....If I have a darts team that goes around the pub circuit playing rivals every Saturday night, we always book the same taxi with a people carrier to collect us and take us to the venue and then drop us back... the agreed charge is 60 euros per night, about 260 a month say with tips..... with the games cancelled should that taxi company expect me and my mates to be forking out cash to them for nada ?

Bullshît, i pay for a service, when that service cannot or is not to be provided regardless of reason, I’m not paying...

Again not a great example to make your point.

But how about this side of things...when all this is over, will you expect your childrens creche places to still be available?

I'm not happy about paying, but I'll certainly pay to ensure my place is still there in future.

Ours have said that no more fees will be collected after March.

GreeBo

lawred2 wrote: »

And that's why people significant fees on a monthly basis.

That isn't up for discussion here though.

This is parents being expected to continue paying fees for a service not being in receipt of. Show me one other sector of society where that holds? Regulations or not?

Any company that has employees working from home is paying the same amount of wages for what is, in most cases, significantly reduced output.

thomas 123

It’s a disgrace, I hope anyone who thinks they should be paying is paying their local pub, take away, garage, etc for not providing a service.

To the crèches who think it’s okay to essentially black mail parents over keeping places: You are a disgrace.

Avail of government business supports. Your costs are a fraction of what they where when you had kids and staff in. Contact your bank/landlord if your mortgage/rent is a worry. You are a business, other business are facing the same crisis.

My local chipper hasn’t sent me a text saying you need to pay your usual 30 euro a week or else we won’t serve you when this is over.

Unbelievable really.

dubrov

GreeBo wrote:

But how about this side of things...when all this is over, will you expect your childrens creche places to still be available?

That would be effectively extortion by the creche. Payment should be for a service, not the threat of removal of a place.

I'd say the demand for childminders is going through the roof at the moment

1874

GreeBo wrote: »

Any company that has employees working from home is paying the same amount of wages for what is, in most cases, significantly reduced output.

But this is a situation where the customer is getting zero/nothing/nada, can you give me another example where another individual or business which would pay for NO SERVICE off a business?
Childcare staff may be at home, but their output is significantly reduced to zero, not a limited amount that means work is being completed, by the nature of that work and many others, work from home is not possible.


Im not faulting them for that, but its not of my/our/parents fault (which was the rationale/excuse given to me for why I would still be charged for childcare with no service).
The businesses who are charging past March are doing it for themselves, not their staff, many of which are already not being paid anyway.
There is in effect blackmail in place by suggesting or outright stating that a childs place will only be reserved if people continue to pay. Even making NO statement as has been missing from the business/childcare service I have up till now being paying/paid for already (in advance) is unacceptable.

GreeBo

dubrov wrote: »

That would be effectively extortion by the creche. Payment should be for a service, not the threat of removal of a place.

I'd say the demand for childminders is going through the roof at the moment

If you stop paying, why would they keep your place??

murphyebass

GreeBo wrote: »

If you stop paying, why would they keep your place??

Unless your creche specifically tells you that you can cancel your direct debit it would be downright foolish of anyone to think that you would keep your place if you stopped paying them.

GreeBo

1874 wrote: »

But this is a situation where the customer is getting zero/nothing/nada, can you give me another example where another individual or business which would pay for NO SERVICE off a business?
Childcare staff may be at home, but their output is significantly reduced to zero, not a limited amount that means work is being completed, by the nature of that work and many others, work from home is not possible.


Im not faulting them for that, but its not of my/our/parents fault (which was the rationale/excuse given to me for why I would still be charged for childcare with no service).
The businesses who are charging past March are doing it for themselves, not their staff, many of which are already not being paid anyway.
There is in effect blackmail in place by suggesting or outright stating that a childs place will only be reserved if people continue to pay. Even making NO statement as has been missing from the business/childcare service I have up till now being paying/paid for already (in advance) is unacceptable.

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle and will be different for each creche.

No point in paying them nothing and then they close their doors for good and parents are screwed.


You call it blackmail, but can you give me another example where an individual or business would guarantee a resumption of service without any payment during the times of no service?

I wouldnt expect a hotel to keep my room free for me in between my bookings for example.

powerstar

Hi,
Is there any legal way we approach this problem, I am sure creches can get support form govt like any other business now. I wonder why no one in the govt talking about this huge issue. It's better they come with a plan rather than each creche deciding their own rules.

GreeBo

powerstar wrote: »

Hi,
Is there any legal way we approach this problem, I am sure creches can get support form govt like any other business now. I wonder why no one in the govt talking about this huge issue. It's better they come with a plan rather than each creche deciding their own rules.

I guess their response is that you are free to cancel at any time...at the moment they are effectively charging people every month to keep their place, lots of private schools charge you to hold a place, its just that its a one off charge.

salmocab

powerstar wrote: »

Hi,
Is there any legal way we approach this problem, I am sure creches can get support form govt like any other business now. I wonder why no one in the govt talking about this huge issue. It's better they come with a plan rather than each creche deciding their own rules.

Crèches have an immediate problem in staffing, there is already a shortage of qualified people and before this crèches were struggling for staff. If they were to try to reopen in say May they might not have enough staff for the kids coming back as they have strict numbers and ratios. There was already a lot of owners looking to leave the industry as recent changes have meant that they spend more time on paperwork and less looking after children making things harder financially. Any government scheme is likely to take too long and if we manage to come through this relatively quickly there may be parents badly stuck for childcare. It’s an absolute mess of a situation for all parties and unprecedented. I don’t think there is any easy solution and whilst asking parents to pay something seems ridiculous the alternative may be that the already struggling sector just falls apart leaving people very badly stuck.

Cakerbaker

My crèche is asking for 50%. While I’m not delighted at the prospect of paying, for me I’m happy to do my bit to try to make sure it survives this and reopens.

Apart from the shortage of childcare places in general, for me it’s more that I don’t want my kids disrupted anymore than they need to be. They’re in a crèche they love, they’ve great friends and the staff are great. It has the feeling of a big extended family. They do loads of different activities. I had experience of a different crèche previously and while the care etc there was great, it just lacked the community feel that we now have. To me it’s more than a service that I pay for every month, it’s a massive positive part of my children’s life and if I can do something to maintain that, then I will.

Now at the same time I’m able to work from home while this is going on and will be fully paid, I can see how even 50% is a lot to people with uncertain jobs or who have to pay for other childcare.

starbaby2003

Cakerbaker wrote: »

My crèche is asking for 50%. While I’m not delighted at the prospect of paying, for me I’m happy to do my bit to try to make sure it survives this and reopens.

Apart from the shortage of childcare places in general, for me it’s more that I don’t want my kids disrupted anymore than they need to be. They’re in a crèche they love, they’ve great friends and the staff are great. It has the feeling of a big extended family. They do loads of different activities. I had experience of a different crèche previously and while the care etc there was great, it just lacked the community feel that we now have. To me it’s more than a service that I pay for every month, it’s a massive positive part of my children’s life and if I can do something to maintain that, then I will.

Now at the same time I’m able to work from home while this is going on and will be fully paid, I can see how even 50% is a lot to people with uncertain jobs or who have to pay for other childcare.

I can’t imagine when this is all over, there will be the same demand for places. Creche’s that are not being in any way flexible are playing Russian roulette in my opinion. My crèche has asked for full fees which is bull****.

salmocab

starbaby2003 wrote: »

I can’t imagine when this is all over, there will be the same demand for places. Creche’s that are not being in any way flexible are playing Russian roulette in my opinion. My crèche has asked for full fees which is bull****.

Whilst asking for full fees is a bit much I think, there might be a drop in demand but it won’t last long as people try to get back to work, there was already a shortage of places especially in urban areas so whilst there may be a drop in demand I’d think it likely that there would still be good numbers. Obviously the longer it goes the more the economy will struggle but if it’s 6-8 week thing it may return quite quickly.

starbaby2003

salmocab wrote: »

Whilst asking for full fees is a bit much I think, there might be a drop in demand but it won’t last long as people try to get back to work, there was already a shortage of places especially in urban areas so whilst there may be a drop in demand I’d think it likely that there would still be good numbers. Obviously the longer it goes the more the economy will struggle but if it’s 6-8 week thing it may return quite quickly.

I don’t want to be The doomsday master but 200k people have lost their jobs. Many of them in industries with very small margins. How many can weather the storm is negotiable but even if this blows over in six weeks there will be a considerable lag before the economy is anywhere near where it currently is. I don’t think struggles to get crèche places will be back on the political agenda for a while

lawred2

GreeBo wrote: »

Any company that has employees working from home is paying the same amount of wages for what is, in most cases, significantly reduced output.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

lawred2

murphyebass wrote: »

Unless your creche specifically tells you that you can cancel your direct debit it would be downright foolish of anyone to think that you would keep your place if you stopped paying them.

So extortion then?

GreeBo

lawred2 wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Employers are still paying staff whilst they are in receipt of significantly lower services.
I thought the point was obvious...

GreeBo

lawred2 wrote: »

So extortion then?

In much the same way as a landlord "extorts" rent from you...sure.

lawred2

GreeBo wrote: »

Employers are still paying staff whilst they are in receipt of significantly lower services.
I thought the point was obvious...

Well significantly lower services is a reach. Is not the case for our company anyway. However it still stands that that at least those employers are getting something in return for salaries paid.

Childcare providers will neither pay staff nor provide a service.

It's not remotely close to being the same thing.

Employment contracts are not comparable to service contracts.

lawred2

GreeBo wrote: »

In much the same way as a landlord "extorts" rent from you...sure.

Do landlords charge you for non occupancy?

GreeBo

lawred2 wrote: »

Do landlords charge you for non occupancy?

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

They would charge you if you said that you wouldn't be there for 2 months but expected that the property be kept for you.

lawred2

GreeBo wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Cool.

lawred2

GreeBo wrote: »

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

They would charge you if you said that you wouldn't be there for 2 months but expected that the property be kept for you.

Not remotely the same thing.

This would be more like the landlord asking you out as they wanted use for six months. But they still wanted you to keep paying full rent so you could move back in in six months time.

This is not the same as a taking your kids out on holidays and expecting the creche to reduce fees because of your own decisions.

A balance needs to be found here. Our creche wants full fees in perpetuity to hold places. Yet we know all staff have been let go already.

You're ok with that. We're not.

Let's leave it there.

dubrov

GreeBo wrote: »

You call it blackmail, but can you give me another example where an individual or business would guarantee a resumption of service without any payment during the times of no service?

I wouldnt expect a hotel to keep my room free for me in between my bookings for example.

A closer example would be if you were staying in a hotel that was closed due to CV19. They may not be bankrupt before they ca reopen but they sure as hell wouldn't try charging you until then.