Working From Home Megathread

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535913#Comment_118535913

I think a lot of employers will have some form of WFH, probably a 3/2 split in most cases. There may be very valid reasons for a company to not have WFH, the rules layout various sensible reasons in my opinion. Those companies will probably find it hard to keep staff and find new ones, so something will have to give, either they increase salaries or rethink the reasons why WFH is not suitable.

I am sure you are aware of this, but Leo Varadkar isn't your employer, he doesn't pay your wages, whatever company you work for pays your wages.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536043#Comment_118536043

Thanks for the nugget of wisdom that Varadkar doesn't pay my wages. In reality, the state regularly "interferes" in the labour market for the good of society. Minimum wage etc. Not right to request minimum wage with a comprehensive set of reasons as to why a request can be refused.

Not that I'm calling for mandatory WFH but there is a surely a middle ground between mandatory and a pointless right to request legislation with 13 reasons for refusal.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536173#Comment_118536173

The minimum wage exists to prevent employers exploiting staff, WFH is completely different, it is a privilege. It is really just that people have a taste for it now, it wasn't an issue before. I think in some cases what the employee believes has been increased productivity might not be a view shared by the employer.

There needs to be clear rules around the reason for a refusal. Which rules in particular do you not agree with? It all seems sensible to me, obviously you can't WFH if you don't have decent broadband, a proper place to work, if your work isn't suitable etc. I am not sure what the "planned structural changes" and "collective agreement" rules mean.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536173#Comment_118536173

We agree it can't be a free for all and unless there are some kind of criteria called out it will be just as bad.

So - What would you feel are Fair and reasonable reasons for an employer to refuse a WFH request?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534953#Comment_118534953

okay then. How about I let you know if anyone ever comes and checks out my home workspace. And that of the other few hundred people who will be working from home for part of the week in my company.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536233#Comment_118536233

Yer grand, thanks. I'll probably end up reading about the court cases for payouts for musculo-skeletal injuries in a few years time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536389#Comment_118536389

Hyperbole much? Musculoskeletal injuries from working at home 2 or 3 days a week? Really?

Naos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536389#Comment_118536389

You must have some Ergonomics Officer in your place.

Any place (multi-nationals) I've worked in just have someone pop around for a few minutes, basically show you how the lumbar support works and how to raise/lower your chair and thats it. Never to be heard from again, regardless of numerous desk moves that would happen throughout the years.

If someone is that concerned about it, use some of your saved commute money and get someone in to take a look.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118535773#Comment_118535773

It's also worth remembering that there are many vested interests (including TD's) in the town centres & business parks who are relying on the government to maintain the footfall in their business interests. Office landlords and coffee shop owners to name but two.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536454#Comment_118536454

Right, I am not sure how that is relevant though. Those working in the public sector might also reflect on the fact that we need businesses doing well to pay salaries.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536389#Comment_118536389

Only for the few who have for some strange reason decided not to improve their home working conditions in TWO YEARS, buying a small desk and decent chair is not beyond anyone. Unless you live in a place like this.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536423#Comment_118536423

HSA guidance is crystal clear on the potential dangers, including;

Managing risks of employees who work at workstations for long durations needs to be carried out to reduce the risk of developing an upper limb disorder. The symptoms of upper limb disorders can include pain, reduction in the ability to use the affected part of the limb and restrictions in the speed or range of movement. Assessing the homeworking environment and workstation is critical to managing these risks and can be done using the homeworking risk assessment/checklist in Appendix 1. Upper limb disorders can be caused through some of the following factors: - repetition – using the same muscle groups over and over during the working day with no time for recovery; - poor work posture – incorrect positioning of a monitor or a seat at a workstation can result in the employee adopting an awkward slouched posture; and - a work environment with bad lighting or temperature control. Poor lighting conditions at a computer workstation can result in eye fatigue and may result in the employee adopting an awkward posture to view the monitor

If you have somebody hunched over a laptop, squeezing their phone between their neck and shoulder, with a poorly adjusted chair and a small desk that doesn't allow the wrists to rest for eight hours a day, then yeah, musculo skeletal issues will be lining up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536472#Comment_118536472

That strange reason might be 'not having any spare money to improve their home'. Lots of people are on very tight budgets, with perhaps a partner who has lost substantial income over two years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536428#Comment_118536428

It's amazing when you have a trained, qualified and experienced expert, how easy they can make things look. Just like the IT guy who can fix serious problems with a couple of clicks. That doesn't mean that an amateur can do the same job at home.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536746#Comment_118536746

And if you’re in this situation then you continue to go to the office and if management say no, then you’ve a case. It’s not hard to understand.

The rest of us grown-ups who take advantage of flexible working and set ourselves up appropriately don’t need (and won’t have) our employers looking over our shoulders

innuendo141

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536389#Comment_118536389

After reading you scutter on and on in this thread for months I'm now finally convinced you are just winding people up (and have a lot of spare time to be worrying about other people wanting to work from home).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536941#Comment_118536941

They want work from home scrapped for everyone.

Everyone else is saying an employer should offer WFH, in office for anyone that wants to be there or at least a hybrid model. People are also saying Ergonomic checks should be done by companies.

They are complete and utter Narcissits who can only see what benefits them, no one else matters except them, they are unable to look past themselves.. Complete and utter Narcs.

Since they hate WFH and is of no benefit to them they are unable to comprehend how working from home benefits other people.

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536866#Comment_118536866

Unfortunately for you, the law disagrees with you. There is no exclusion in H&S law for those who choose to WFH.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536995#Comment_118536995

As stated multiple times previously, I absolutely don't want WFH scrapped for everyone. I see the benefits of WFH for many colleagues and relatives.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537754#Comment_118537754

Honestly Andrew, I'm sorry to say I give up.

After nearly 2 years of you trolling this and the other WFH thread, deliberately twisting comments, being deliberately obtuse, ignoring facts, arguing against positions nobody has taken, nit-picking for weeks to provoke arguments and general bonkers logic, I have to give up on engaging with you. Its a shame really as I enjoy your contributions elsewhere, e.g. cycling related threads, but at this stage everything that can be said has been said and you remain relentless in your behavior. Not saying you're not entitled to your opinion on this topic, you are, however I've given up on how you choose to engage on this topic.

So anyway, yeah, have a good one, I'm out

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118537825#Comment_118537825

Grand so, you'll hear most of the same points being made by Richard Grogan anyway.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538170#Comment_118538170

And we will hear most of the same from you anyway, H&S will be kicking in doors all over the place to make sure they have lumbar support and correct posture, blah blah blah.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118536995#Comment_118536995

I have no idea where you invented the idea that "they want work from home scrapped for everyone".

In fact, I could say most of what you have written about pro-WFH advocates: they want it in place for ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE, with no consideration that it's not suitable for some people, some houses, and some jobs. They aren't willing to hear anything bad about , or any reasons why it's sometimes unsuitable. They NEVER mention customers, and they probably don't even understand how their companies actually make money, and how they need to innovate to continue making money in future.

The bit about lack of empathy for others is particularly hilarious. Many WFH advocates don't seem to like their colleagues, don't want to see them, and don't care what their home circumstances are like.

Feels like I've said this a dozen times: if WFH works for you, and your immediate manager, your organisation AND your customers - great, I'm delighted that you have found a better way of life.

But notice the "ANDs" in that statement: failing in any one part of it means that WFH may not be a good fit for your current job.

I know a a fair number of folks who now WFH, and for most it’s been nearly entirely positive and overall to be recommended. However there is at least one case I know where an individual, (who would of course have already been so inclined) started drinking heavily in the privacy of own home during daytime as there was no direct supervision, no colleagues or customers to witness. Over the course of the pandemic they ended up in end-stage alcoholism where the condition became manifest during conference calls & after recurrent accidents. The individual then began the jumping from one company to the next, trying to carry out a very responsible line of work.

This would be far from an isolated phenomenon when it comes to those with such a proclivity, and it could be argued that this would happen such folk one way or the other. However the WFH scenario certainly accelerates it, in that there can be 24 hour access to the chosen substance when nobody is looking, in particular for those living alone.

On the other hand, recreational drugs would perhaps be just as likely to be taken during work time by those attending offices, as consumption can be discreet during comfort breaks and, apart from smoked cannabis, there is no aroma.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118538568#Comment_118538568

I find it amazing you mention lack of empathy for others.

Two things from memory that stand out and I am sure I am forgetting many.

You advised someone to set meetings around times people do school runs.

You made fun of people with disabilities.

You are without a doubt from your posts a workplace bully.

Yet you accuse people of not liking employees or don't care what their home circumstances are like.

In regards people not mentioning customers and don't know how their company makes money, well that is not what the vast majority of workers are paid to worry about, so I am not sure why that seems important to you.

gauchesnell

apologies for the random question but am I correct in that people here see the most resistance from employers is the H&S issue. Have employers not done this already - genuine question. Im public sector and H&S assessments were done of our home work station back in 2020.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539171#Comment_118539171

Yes - any reputable employer that has had WFH in place prior to Covid will have long established , legally vetted and robust H&S policies in place.

I, like many other here have been working remote for many years and my employer provides me with funding to purchase the necessary equipment to set up my home office. They also provide me with a series of online training courses regarding the correct setup of my home office and guidance around best practices and so on.

I also have to complete a review of my home office, including photos of my setup to ensure compliance with said guidelines and rules etc.

This is not new , this is not difficult.

Will there be some employers that do not do this properly as they begin to offer WFH post Covid?

Yes , probably but I'd hazard a guess that if they do so then they are also likely non-compliant around the Office for various things as well.

WFH won't suddenly turn decent, compliant Employers into risk taking law breakers overnight regardless of what people might think.

gauchesnell

oh ok grand cos I found the responses to the proposed legislation confusing - yes it is shite but we completed H&S assessment and our employers provided us with relevant equipment. We didnt have remote working prior to covid.

All other policies and procedures updated in line with remote working - why cos they had do. Like you we have numerous resources available online to support this.

As you say this isnt new. I found it odd that people think this is a new requirement going forward and that employers would be able to refuse on that basis. If you have been remote working since 2020 an assessment was due to completed then - not 2 years later.

Surely thats a massive liability if employers suddenly assess home work stations as unsafe.

Same for all those reasons listed - have they not been covered by some employers?

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539114#Comment_118539114

My company has hired a permanent ergonomist for every employee who is WFH. They work with us in our homes every day to make sure we are sitting in our chairs correctly. They have also been asked to take hourly urine samples to test for substance abuse. So far it has been working really well. The only issue is that since the new guidelines were published, the ergonomists also want to WFH!

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539415#Comment_118539415

ha ha but yes we do have OT and occupational health advisors in my workplace and yes I actually do know a workplace in the private sector who does a version of what you joke about (not sure about the urine samples).

My point was this work was due to be done 2 years ago - not going forward.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539501#Comment_118539501

It is definitely the case that companies who do not do this type of box ticking are open to claims from the type of person who slips on their doorstep after a few pints and also the type of person who needs to be supervised on a swing in a bar.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539519#Comment_118539519

or from staff who are refused remote working on the basis or unsafe remote working station despite working there for 2 years and no assessment having being completed.

yeah its not a type of box ticking - its required by law 🤣

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118539519#Comment_118539519

I know you are joking, but unless you have employees supervised in an office at all times and never wfh even say once a month than this could happen.

I mean I can understand employers advising people how to sit etc.

But surely you could not put in a claim if you fell, it would be impossible to prove it was at home and while working.