Working From Home Megathread

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531833#Comment_118531833

So have I, but my point is that shoving a toxic group back into the office together isn't going to make the toxicity go away.

A person I know working from home in tech (server/router system recently had an electric bill of €460 which I have a temporary dig out with. The impression I got was that it is hardly cost-effective.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533119#Comment_118533119

I guess that’s a specific circumstance. For expense like that a worker is clearly better off in the employers base unless they have a generous allowance on offer. Most of us just have the bare laptop and light/heat. There’s a very small revenue allowance you can claim which I do

Dav010

Prime time discussion on wfh on at the moment including H&S.

Will be up on Rte player soon.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532993#Comment_118532993

If there are valid reasons then we would know about them already, wouldn't you say?

Most companies/managers that will want a return to an office will be for the aimless managers who need control, or to make use of the office lease while they still have it.

Productivity has never been in higher in plenty of sectors. I work in tech and my last job was totally remote, in that they have never had an office other than a business address. Totally remote workforce and always met their targets and productivity.

To assume that simply being in an office improves productivity is so wide of the mark. Office culture can be just as destructive on productivity along with the commute some people have to go through each day.

I really fail to see any reason, at all, for a mandatory return at all to an office. If workers have been able to do what is asked of them for the last 2 years, why change it?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533401#Comment_118533401

The question employers will ask though is whether that productivity can be sustained. Up to now the only evidence employers have is their productivity data on office work under normal trading conditions, in times of uncertainty the normal human response is to revert to the safety of what you know from experience. A lot of businesses right now are, understandably, risk averse, so will revert to type, the challenge will be persuading them to embrace wfh in the long term. And the argument that staff will leave is obvious, what should also be obvious is that a job which does not suit one person due to location/presence in an office, will suit another for the same reasons.

There is a good chance most employers who favour a return to offices and fear they will lose staff who want wfh will want to do it as early/quickly as possible and get recruitment underway so as to have a committed work force, and those who are determined to wfh will want to get jobs which guarantee it with equal haste, so put out the chairs and switch on the music, let the great resignation dance begin. Eventually everyone will hopefully get what they want, which will be good for all, hopefully.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533481#Comment_118533481

Not sure if you have your finger on the pulse, but the great resignation has already begun. It has been going on in the USA since last February at least.

As for productivity, there has been plenty of stuff around how that it has been maintained or exceeded levels with WFH policies. There is no reason at all to think it can't be either. In a nutshell, happy workers are productive workers, that has been shown throughout this.

I would hedge a bet that there are more willing to WFH than those who want to commute to an office as well.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533574#Comment_118533574

Frank I suspect resignations will skyrocket from this week onward here in Ireland as offices reopen and employers start to inform their employees if they will be required to be physically present either full time or using a hybrid arrangement.

Im sure there is plenty of data collected over the past two years, but as the world, and this country especially returns to normal, trading conditions may change from the level they have been at for the last two years. The more conservative employers will want their offices to return to normality as well, I’m not saying that is the right thing to do, it probably isn’t, but that will be the reality for many employees.

I disagree with you about levels who want to wfh, the fact is that your opinion will probably be coloured by what you want to happen. I don’t think anyone really knows yet. There of course will be a lot of people in finance/IT that will never go back to office work, but there will be people to fill those jobs. This will be a great opportunity for people to get jobs that suit them, but eventually an equilibrium will be reached, those that want to wfh will have to secure those jobs while they are available, those that want to go back to offices, or can’t wfh will take their jobs. As I said, hopefully everyone gets what they want.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532595#Comment_118532595

No thanks. I would never stay on, or take, a job that required me to be in the office every day. Plenty of companies have shown over many years, long before Covid, that hybrid and flexible working can be effective.

I am amazed at people that want to hold us back in the Stone Age of office working tbh. Just cannot understand that mindset at all. Probably the same people who don’t want changes made to our towns and cities to make them better for non-car users, and just generally make things more pleasant for everyone.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533863#Comment_118533863

I would be reasonably confident most employers are not overly invested in town/city planning matters, and if they are, I doubt they would be against policies that improve the lot of non car users.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529769#Comment_118529769

On the surface, this looks flexible but this is why i think 'hybrid' is a cod. what about people who want to leave Dublin and buy a house down the country? doesn't seem possible under this arrangement.

Also, what's the reason for 50%? just seems so arbitrary.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533891#Comment_118533891

Why should any company be obligated to facilitate you leaving Dublin and buying a house down the country? If fully remote works for both you and the company, then great, but it won't in many cases.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532154#Comment_118532154

Don’t think it is that straightforward, when you have people quoting their HR as saying; “the employee does the training and attests to their environment then there will be no issue”.

Employees don’t have the expertise to attest to anything on ergonomics. You might as well ask employees to attest to their own health for sick leave, or attest to their own financial compliance for audit purposes.

thefallingman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532699#Comment_118532699

Not jealousy for me i chose to work in the office but i don't like doing the work of people at home, that's what it boils down too. Fact is it's the laziest most unproductive people that want to WFH forever in my job anyway. I wonder why.

Lewis_Benson

My job (sys admin) had been done very productively for the past 2 years.

Our manager is leveraging for our team to continue WFH , all down to senior management at this stage.

I haver zero interest in apending 2+ hours in the car every day again, why anyone would want that is beyond me.

Work life balance and not spending a fortune commuting sounds better to me.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533956#Comment_118533956

Nobody said they should be obliged, but if after 2 years, firms are not allowing it, they should have very good reasons.

if it has worked for the last 2 years, I cannot see why it shouldn't be allowed continue.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534155#Comment_118534155

“Should” is different to required. The reasons why an employer can legally refuse wfh were outlined yesterday, but that does not of course give the full picture as to why. If you don’t want to go back to the office, it should be easy to find a wfh job, your resignation will free up a position for someone who hasn’t an issue with office attendance. This really shouldn’t be a big deal, it will just be mass migration to job arrangements which suits everyone.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534155#Comment_118534155

It depends what you mean by "should", from a moral or legal point of view? I think WFH is great and I think successful, forward looking companies will embrace it. I personally don't think the state has a role in legislating to force companies to do it. So I am not sure what people expected from the "Right to request WFH". In my opinion we already had that, we also have the right to ask our employers to double our salaries. There are a lot of people in Ireland who would sit on the toilet waiting for the council to come round to wipe their backsides.

If the company you work for doesn't allow it, move to another one!

JDD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533891#Comment_118533891

I don't know the reason for 50%. They've been oscillating between 40% and 60% over the past two years. I assume some actual thought has gone into it. It may well be that if they said 40%, a large proportion would buy houses in Kerry/Cork/Donegal and accept that they would be up in Dublin one night a week. That's not conducive to the flexibility that the employer wants - i.e. working late one evening or having you available for an early morning meeting the day before.

It does mean that you could buy a house in a closer county though. You might not have wanted to buy a house in Wexford Town or Bettystown or whatever, but now you can and you won't be commuting 50% of the time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533993#Comment_118533993

Large employers do indeed have the expertise in their HR departments. Smaller employers will likely have to use a third party vendor to design their training and attestation process.

But I absolutely guarantee that neither m my employer, nor any third party, will be directly reviewing my home working set up. They have not done so in 8 years and have confirmed that training and attention will remain the way forward.

If an employer is forcing staff to WFH, irrespective of their home environment, it will be a different story. But as long as is an option then, yes, training and attestation (appropriately designed by people who know what they are doing) will indeed suffice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533867#Comment_118533867

I agree with you. I was responding to that particular poster who didn’t see what the problem was, that he / she has been working in the office throughout and that everyone should suck it up and get back full time. It’s the “holiday is over” mentality that some people seem to have

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118533891#Comment_118533891

Lots of people would like to continue to be paid their Dublin salary and live in a much lower cost location, how likely do you think that kind arbitrage opportunity will exist for.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534460#Comment_118534460

If the job / output stays the same, i can't see why wage should change.

If companies have a climate change policy, is this in conflict with forcing commutes?

In 10 years, I would envisage remote work being the default and we'll look back on time-consuming commutes in the same way we look back at dial-up internet now.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534496#Comment_118534496

It will change, part of the reason city salaries are higher is because of the cost of living. Larger co's in the US are already making moves on this. Geographic pay differentials.

Young_gunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534527#Comment_118534527

But a comparison with the US is flawed, Ireland is the same size as an average state over there.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534556#Comment_118534556

nothing to do with the size of a state its the same principal. Living in Dublin costs more (same way living in the bay area costs more) if employers expect you to be present in that location the pay needs to reflect your cost of living. If they don't then the premium goes away.

it wont happen immediately but it will happen for fully remote roles, and people will who want to be remote will most likely go along with it.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534556#Comment_118534556

If a company can get away with paying someone who wants to work fully remote less, then they will do so. It really depends on how demand the individual is, someone with in demand skills will have a lot of flexibility in the future. I can see companies being willing to hire people fully remote in other countries (we already had this situation, but would consider more of it in the future for the right people). I am not sure the same situation will apply to anonymous henchmen.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534527#Comment_118534527

This is absolutely true in the US - There are massive differences in Salary rates depending on location.My employer has clearly indicated that moving to another State will result in a new/revised contract.

Also, in the US taxation is different in the different states which is clearly an issue.

Here in Ireland it's not altogether clear if companies have clearly established salary scales for different parts of the country - No doubt buying a home in Leitrim is a lot cheaper than Dublin , but I'm not sure that many companies would have that level of granularity available to them in terms of relative salaries.

Whatever about offering a different salary based on location when you are hiring an employee I'm not sure where an employer in Ireland stands legally if they tried to reduce an existing employees salary if they were moving to a nominally "lower cost" location.

Most will probably just deny the request for WFH on that basis

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118534606#Comment_118534606

i would agree i dont see them trying to reduce salaries for anyone who already has a fully remote agreement, but everyone else is fair game. So if your contract is a standard one and you want a change of terms to reflect that you are fully remote id expect that in the near future there will be a salary implication.

Sarn

The flip side is that a ‘Dublin (or city) weighting’ could be introduced. However, this would likely only apply to those who can’t avail of WFH, or where more regular attendance at the office is required, and so must be close to work.