FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

ThunbergsAreGo

smurgen wrote: »

So we should stop complaining of a minister who's criminally inept and out of his depth in case we hurt his feelings? If fg out him out of his misery it would take alot of stress off him and the public animosity would be quelled.

Complaining is one thing and is totally valid. personal attacks on him and his family are not.

To be honest my comment was independent from Simon Harris, social media can be toxic

dabestman1

smurgen wrote: »

Christ Harris hasn't done a tap in the last few years but he sure is quick off the mark to try turn someone else's tragedy about him. Bit rich too seems as FG never discussed mental health over the course of the election.

https://twitter.com/SimonHarrisTD/status/1228754722405978113?s=19

Harris should have concentrated on his job and then we would not have 1m people on waiting lists, deaths due to routine surgery or being discharged early, the recruitment embargo and the fact that he was radio silent during the election.
He is using a tragedy to get people to go easy on him, disgraceful behaviour.

smurgen

dabestman1 wrote: »

Harris should have concentrated on his job and then we would not have 1m people on waiting lists, deaths due to routine surgery or being discharged early, the recruitment embargo and the fact that he was radio silent during the election.
He is using a tragedy to get people to go easy on him, disgraceful behaviour.

I'd worry more on the mental health of those waiting on trolleys more to be honest.

all about the mane

dabestman1 wrote: »

Harris should have concentrated on his job and then we would not have 1m people on waiting lists, deaths due to routine surgery or being discharged early, the recruitment embargo and the fact that he was radio silent during the election.
He is using a tragedy to get people to go easy on him, disgraceful behaviour.

What should Harris have done?

smurgen

all about the mane wrote: »

What should Harris have done?

Not made a cynical post trying to capitalise on the recent suicide of a TV personality.

Edgware

UDAWINNER wrote: »

you do realise that is the british govt controls the purse strings up there.

Same old excuse trotted out by the useful idiots

all about the mane

smurgen wrote: »

Not made a cynical post trying to capitalise on the recent suicide of a TV personality.

I'm talking about as Minister for Health?

Edgware

all about the mane wrote: »

I'm talking about as Minister for Health?

You're talking ****e as usual

all about the mane

Edgware wrote: »

You're talking ****e as usual

I’m asking a simple question. Try to keep up.

votecounts

all about the mane wrote: »

What should Harris have done?

done his job, concentrate on solutions like he is paid to so.

all about the mane

votecounts wrote: »

done his job, concentrate on solutions like he is paid to so.

What solutions? Health is an absolute disaster. Has been forever. Government after government haven’t been able to sort it. Give us concrete solutions as to how to fix it. And not just sound bites like plenty of populist politicians like to do.

bunderoon

all about the mane wrote: »

What solutions? Health is an absolute disaster. Has been forever. Government after government haven’t been able to sort it. Give us concrete solutions as to how to fix it. And not just sound bites like plenty of populist politicians like to do.

1) Review drug purchase costs from manufacturers. ( Guess what, some of those are based in Ireland). Do a deal for all hospitals and clinics.
2) Stop hiring middle management when front line is what's needed.
3) Stop hiring agency staff which costs more.
4) put a 5 year contract on new qualified doctors, where they must stay in Ireland and not leave as soon as they are qualified.
5) Run expensive equipment 18hours a day. The eleaviations in day time will close to pay for the extra cost. This will greatly reduce wating times.
6) Encourage university majors to investigate in how Irelamd is one of the highest in terms of Cancer sufferers. Prevention is better than cause and saves untold millions.
7) Hire doctors who are experts in their general field. This will reduce the need of consultants.
8) Create a national wide intranet for the HSE. It's not rocket science. It will massively decrease the inefficiencies and waiting times.
9) cut medical cards drastically. Education and awareness leads to less people in the GP waiting room wards.
10) Charge 300euro for each A&E visit by drunk people.

I've many more.

Idbatterim

Ive another one for that list, if you have a medical card, you are still making a contribution toards the cost...

JohnnyFlash

Simon Harris will go down as one of the greatest health ministers this country has had.

Sláintecare received cross-party support. The most radical change to our health service since we dealt with the TB crisis. In a turn of fate, it will involve building 8 major hospitals in locations that were once set aside for that disease.

It's now up to the parties of change to implement it.

Plumbthedepths

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Simon Harris will go down as one of the greatest health ministers this country has had.

Now there's Bullsh!t and there's Bullsh!t but the above comment is so far beyond bullsh!t its out of sight

Yurt2

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Now there's Bullsh!t and there's Bullsh!t but the above comment is so far beyond bullsh!t its out of sight

Fine Gaelers are telling themselves stories to make themselves feel better at this stage.

Party morale has cracked. A couple of die-hard true-blue friends of mine privately admitted to me a while back they know better than to try to defend the performance of Eoghan Murphy, Harris and even Leo Varadkar in public or among peers, because they know in their hearts they haven't been good enough and have alienated too much of the electorate.

cosybeach

Yeah the sinners have promised more than anyone else, knowing that they wont get the money they need through higher taxes EU wont let them borrow and there will probably be a global recession in the next few years.
no amount of money will fix the health service reform is needed but not allowed harney came closest but was stopped by the unions lots of absenteeism, outdated practices and must be a fully staffed 24hour operation which it is NOT.
HSE Staff should be held accountable and reprimanded, rewarded for good performance.
Until reform no politician will never have any impact on this dinosaur.

So FG should sit it out get rid of Leo and build for the next election FF can do same or maybe do a confidence in supply for the mob

smurgen

This is a disgraceful intervention by a FG minister. Seems like FG won't be tacking animal cruelty if they get back in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/heather-humphreys-intervened-in-animal-cruelty-case-krzzm2gsp

thomasdylan

bunderoon wrote: »

3) Stop hiring agency staff which costs more.
4) put a 5 year contract on new qualified doctors, where they must stay in Ireland and not leave as soon as they are qualified.
7) Hire doctors who are experts in their general field. This will reduce the need of consultants.:)
10) Charge 300euro for each A&E visit by drunk people

I've many more.

No Irish doctors leave Ireland the day they graduate. They all stay doing intern year and some of them realise that it's better for them to go to work in a health system that values them rather than staying in Ireland to do 80 hour weeks and 24 hour shifts while being shipped around the country. Why would anyone stay and work in conditions that will knock a few years off your life. Irish students studying medicine are pretty much subsidised by non-EU medical students paying 40k a year fees. It's a great course for colleges to have because it's a money spinner and the government doesn't have to fund much of it compared to almost every other course.

smurgen

thomasdylan wrote: »

No Irish doctors leave Ireland the day they graduate. They all stay doing intern year and some of them realise that it's better for them to go to work in a health system that values them rather than staying in Ireland to do 80 hour weeks and 24 hour shifts while being shipped around the country. Why would anyone stay and work in conditions that will knock a few years off your life. Irish students studying medicine are pretty much subsidised by non-EU medical students paying 40k a year fees. It's a great course for colleges to have because it's a money spinner and the government doesn't have to fund much of it compared to almost every other course.

How about locking in those in the medical profession after qualifications? I.e obliged to work in the Irish system for 4 years in order to be signed off for full qualifications. If Irish people then don't want to do this they can be offset by doctors from other countries we could have many Indian medical students that would accept these terms. I think it's time those alleged higher up in society give back to their country.

thomasdylan

smurgen wrote: »

How about locking in those in the medical profession after qualifications? I.e obliged to work in the Irish system for 4 years in order to be signed off for full qualifications. If Irish people then don't want to do this they can be offset by doctors from other countries we could have many Indian medical students that would accept these terms. I think it's time those alleged higher up in society give back to their country.

I don't think locking in anyone is allowed under EU freedom of movement.

And what is there to give back? Ireland has free education, should everyone have to work for four years in Ireland after their degree? Forcing doctors to stay in Ireland to work unsafe hours while being shipped around the country in the current training system isn't going to work. Working 24 hour shifts and 80 hour weeks increases the risk of loads of medical issues. Why should anyone have to 'give back to their country' at the cost of their own health?

Your last sentence makes it look like there's a chip on your shoulder.

smurgen

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think locking in anyone is allowed under EU freedom of movement.

And what is there to give back? Ireland has free education, should everyone have to work for four years in Ireland after their degree? Forcing doctors to stay in Ireland to work unsafe hours while being shipped around the country in the current training system isn't going to work. Working 24 hour shifts and 80 hour weeks increases the risk of loads of medical issues. Why should anyone have to 'give back to their country' at the cost of their own health?

Your last sentence makes it look like there's a chip on your shoulder.

There is. I see the issues in the health sector because no one is willing to take on the unions or the consultants. What's more the management could do with being cut also. Those working in health are canonised and for the most part this is warranted.however there are those who are trying to cream it also and there's alot of questionable things I've wandered about. For example and this is only a small example but why do so many GP's and consultants work on a cash only basis?

thomasdylan

smurgen wrote: »

There is. I see the issues in the health sector because no one is willing to take on the unions or the consultants. What's more the management could do with being cut also. Those working in health are canonised and for the most part this is warranted.however there are those who are trying to cream it also and there's alot of questionable things I've wandered about. For example and this is only a small example but why do so many GP's and consultants work on a cash only basis?

There's 500 empty consultant posts in Ireland and Ireland has the lowest per capita number of consultants in the EU.

The cash only basis is a bit of a tangent from what I posted about but I'd imagine it's for the same reasons lots of businesses and people only take cash. There was a GP who hadn't declared cash payments imprisoned a while ago so it's be a risky choice to do that.

all about the mane

bunderoon wrote: »

1) Review drug purchase costs from manufacturers. ( Guess what, some of those are based in Ireland). Do a deal for all hospitals and clinics. Not as easy as it sounds. Manufacturers would have to agree to this. How are you so sure they would?
2) Stop hiring middle management when front line is what's needed. Sweeping statement. Have you figures to back it up?
3) Stop hiring agency staff which costs more. Are there people available to take up full time posts? Is there money there to offer these full time positions?
4) put a 5 year contract on new qualified doctors, where they must stay in Ireland and not leave as soon as they are qualified. Absolutely agree with this.
5) Run expensive equipment 18hours a day. The eleaviations in day time will close to pay for the extra cost. This will greatly reduce wating times. Need to get this past the unions
6) Encourage university majors to investigate in how Irelamd is one of the highest in terms of Cancer sufferers. Prevention is better than cause and saves untold millions. Long term goal that has its merits. Not going to solve the current issues.
7) Hire doctors who are experts in their general field. This will reduce the need of consultants. Need to get this past the unions.
8) Create a national wide intranet for the HSE. It's not rocket science. It will massively decrease the inefficiencies and waiting times. Again, need to get this past the unions
9) cut medical cards drastically. Education and awareness leads to less people in the GP waiting room wards. Who would you cut them from?
10) Charge 300euro for each A&E visit by drunk people. I see some merit in this. But what about the likes of chronic alcoholics?

I've many more.

see in red above

JP Liz V1

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Look it's going to be a FF/Greens/SocDems coalition with FG providing confidence and supply from the opposition benches. Labour fully in opposition.

This is the only possible outcome. Matt McGrath, Jim O Callaghhan, Jack Chambers have all said FF/SF not happening. Two thirds of FF members are against it as well.

I thought Coveney ruled out FG propping up FF like they did

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

You are awful bitter for someone who thought they won the election.

Your post once again, has nothing to do with mine. Weird.
Tell us all about the greens in this. Be nice to have some insight. Will they go in the FG?
Varadkar seems pretty excited about being in opposition where he can do nothing and not have to be seen to do something.

all about the mane

Bowie wrote: »

Your post once again, has nothing to do with mine. Weird.
Tell us all about the greens in this. Be nice to have some insight. Will they go in the FG?
Varadkar seems pretty excited about being in opposition where he can do nothing and not have to be seen to do something.

Isn’t that SF’s speciality?

JP Liz V1

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Simon Harris will go down as one of the greatest health ministers this country has had.

Sláintecare received cross-party support. The most radical change to our health service since we dealt with the TB crisis. In a turn of fate, it will involve building 8 major hospitals in locations that were once set aside for that disease.

It's now up to the parties of change to implement it.

I wonder will the families and friends of the deceased and others caught up in the cervical cancer scandal agree

Fann Linn

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Simon Harris will go down as one of the greatest health ministers this country has had.

Sláintecare received cross-party support. The most radical change to our health service since we dealt with the TB crisis. In a turn of fate, it will involve building 8 major hospitals in locations that were once set aside for that disease.

It's now up to the parties of change to implement it.

Is this a wind up?
Was there an election called and lost because Leo thought he'd lose a 'no confidence' vote in this clown?

Pseudonym121

Wow lots of interesting stuff here in the turn this has taken in discussing healthcare.

The overall thing which would fix the healthcare system is bringing in Slaintecare and combining it with a fee for service model a la Australia or Canada ( or a mixed model where you could be on a baseline salary or be on fee for service ).

This would combine both public only public hospitals with an incentivised system where does who work more efficiently and harder get paid more. This has worked very well in Canada and Australia and you would find Consultants, OTs, Psychologists, Physios, Radiographers etc very happy to work under a fee for service system as it would allow those who want/need to earn more to earn more provided they worked more. This would very handily tackle waiting lists and would be an end run of the unions as you’d have the basic pay and 39 hour week for those who wish it and then the fee for service work as an optional extra for those who want it. Young, hungry new entrants would do that work in order to save their house deposit/pay their mortgage. Unions would have a terrible time preventing these new entrants from doing work offered them in order to get the deposit for a house together.

Other specific solutions which are actually doable have been outlined in the Health thread on this forum.

As for some of the stuff mooted here:
1. Hire doctors who are experts in their fields to reduce the need for consultants.

This is nonsensical and shows that the poster doesn’t understand the field of medicine. Consultants are the experts in their field so what you say amounts to hire Consultants ( or their equivalents ) so you’ll reduce the need for Consultants. Ireland has a run a very expensive experiment in hiring unqualified people for Consultant posts. The end result has been poorer care and poorer outcomes for citizens of the state attending these clinicians.


2. Turning doctors into indentured servants for 4 or 5 years won’t solve the problem either. Firstly I believe it is illegal under European law and secondly it would result in such resentment that the instant those doctors finished training and were eligible to be Consultants they would all emigrate. This would leave you with an even larger problem.

3. A nationwide intranet would not, in and of itself, reduce waiting lists. There are many things which would reduce waiting lists which are doable and cost-saving or cost-neutral. This intranet idea is not one of them.

4. Running investigative equipment on weekends with a fee for service model of pay would solve the waiting time for investigations quite rapidly. Fee for service could be brought in in addition to the standard 39 hour basic rate contracts and so should be more acceptable to unions.

It is very easy to spout off right wing diktats to force people to do x and y and take rights away from them and castigate entire sections of society for behaviours and motivations one imagines them to have. E.g. Punish people with alcohol dependence syndrome for showing up in crisis.

I would really have hoped that we as a society were better than that in terms of wanting to help people with problems instead of taking moralistic stands and punishing them for their transgressions, real or imagined.

FWIW I’m a Consultant in the HSE, committed to public care and neither left nor right wing. I am instead pragmatic and focused on the functional. Quite a lot of what is said about the health service is stated with a surfeit of ignorance and bombast which is neither warranted nor helpful.

There are massive problems. People working in the system know many of the solutions to these problems and, perhaps, instead of engaging in bombast and hyperbole and dictating the removal of rights and punishment of the ill it would be better to, instead, listen to both patients and providers and focus on doing the things most people at the front lines agree need doing?

Ps. I’m sure Simon Harris is a fine person and I think that ad hominem attacks on him say far more negatively about the people making them than they do about Simon Harris. With that said he was not an effective Minister of Health. That is the standard by which we should judge him, effectiveness in his job.