Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

First Up

ExMachina1000 wrote:

The second biggest economy has left the EU. European law no longer supersedes UK law.

Putting a fish in a smaller pond doesn't make the fish any bigger.

All laws in force in the UK have been passed by the UK parliament.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

No, it’s why any thread about Brexit (or British politics for that matter) just end up with the same few posters throwing around as hominem resulting in a cluster****/echo chamber.

People on this forum are overwhelmingly negative about every aspect of Brexit and its implementation.

But this doesn't have to be accounted for by a hatred of Britain. It is perfectly adequately accounted for by a hatred of Brexit. Or even by a dispassionate and considered opinion that Brexit is a fundamentally bad idea, that all forms of Brexit are harmful, and that the poor management and administration of the project has lumbered the UK and its neighbours with a much worse Brexit than the referendum result required.

You may not agree with that view. But I do think you have to accept that it's not the same thing as a hatred of Britain.

J Mysterio

Seems for Aegir's mental wellbeing, it's easier to believe that we all hate UK than it is to recognise the UK has acted truly abominably for the last number of years, and is in fact in the process of destroying 'herself'.

lawred2

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seems for Aegir's mental wellbeing, it's easier to believe that we all hate UK than it is to recognise the UK has acted truly abominably for the last number of years, and is in fact in the process of destroying 'herself'.

with the enabling support of the DUP for a time it must be added

NI has played its part in this sh!tshow

ancapailldorcha

lawred2 wrote: »

with the enabling support of the DUP for a time it must be added

NI has played its part in this sh!tshow

Did it f*ck. NI voted remain. The DUP get votes because FPTP means that voting for anyone other than the big two is a complete waste of a vote. Sinn Fein enjoy the same benefit with smaller, moderate parties being all but destroyed as a result.

VinLieger

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Did it f*ck. NI voted remain. The DUP get votes because FPTP means that voting for anyone other than the big two is a complete waste of a vote. Sinn Fein enjoy the same benefit with smaller, moderate parties being all but destroyed as a result.

Indeed just look at the results of the NI local elections that use STV to get an idea of how far off the GE is


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Northern_Ireland_local_elections#Results


The DUP and SF only got 50% of the local seats between them in May 2019 VS 83% of Commons seats in the GE 6 months later

lawred2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Did it f*ck. NI voted remain. The DUP get votes because FPTP means that voting for anyone other than the big two is a complete waste of a vote. Sinn Fein enjoy the same benefit with smaller, moderate parties being all but destroyed as a result.

sure by that logic nobody has played any part at all in Brexit

because the Tories govern on the back of a minority popular vote.. British people know what their voting system means.

It's a factual statement anyway to say that NI played a part in Brexit. Brexit needed the support of the DUP. So NI has played a supporting role in Brexit.

I didn't see any parties from Scotland or Wales propping up the English Tories.

That the DUP didn't have popular support for their position doesn't really negate their relevance.

Bonniedog

Donald Trump wrote: »

You are free to believe in the superiority and exceptionalism of all people and things British if you so wish. You are fortunately in a small enough minority as to never to be able to realistically threaten common sense for the rest of us.

I am a republican who finds it pathetic that the same people who were so far up the Br1t's ar3e you couldn't see their feet, are now "donning the green jersey" in support of their new overlords in Brussels. The ones who landed us with a €64 billion bank debt.

The Brits have a perfect right to protect their fisheries and as Ray Bissett and others who were in Irish diplomatic service have pointed out, it would have made more sense for this state to make common cause on that given that the two islands control such a huge proportion of the "EU fishery", rather than their usual slavish brown nosing of the biggest bully in town.

As for the post colonial mentality, I refer you to a government that wanted to celebrate the scum who burned Cork this week 100 years ago, and are ashamed of the military campaign that put their sad ar3es where they are now.

New Sinn Féin joining in all of this and jettisoning a century of republican economic policy regarding natural resources is no surprise, no more than their forcing Stanley to apologise for the IRA and making a joke about that other twat from Castleknock.

lawred2

Bonniedog wrote: »

I am a republican who finds it pathetic that the same people who were so far up the Br1t's ar3e you couldn't see their feet, are now "donning the green jersey" in support of their new overlords in Brussels. The ones who landed us with a €64 billion bank debt.

The Brits have a perfect right to protect their fisheries and as Ray Bissett and others who were in Irish diplomatic service have pointed out, it would have made more sense for this state to make common cause on that given that the two islands control such a huge proportion of the "EU fishery", rather than their usual slavish brown nosing of the biggest bully in town.

As for the post colonial mentality, I refer you to a government that wanted to celebrate the scum who burned Cork this week 100 years ago, and are ashamed of the military campaign that put their sad ar3es where they are now.

New Sinn Féin joining in all of this and jettisoning a century of republican economic policy regarding natural resources is no surprise, no more than their forcing Stanley to apologise for the IRA and making a joke about that other twat from Castleknock.

I think too much is made of Charlie Tanagan's solo run on those commemorations..

He was quickly shown how offside he was with that one.

It's not really accurate to consider those commemorations a government objective.

First Up

Bonniedog wrote:

The ones who landed us with a €64 billion bank debt.

How did they do that?

Bonniedog wrote:

and as Ray Bissett and others

Its Ray Basset but seeing as you have everything else ar*eways.......

Leroy42

Bonniedog wrote: »

The Brits have a perfect right to protect their fisheries and as Ray Bissett and others who were in Irish diplomatic service have pointed out, it would have made more sense for this state to make common cause on that given that the two islands control such a huge proportion of the "EU fishery", rather than their usual slavish brown nosing of the biggest bully in town.

Of course they do, nobody is arguing otherwise. But, and here is the rub, the EU also have things the UK want and they want something in return. One of those things is access to the fishing grounds.

EU has created the SM which the UK sees are valuable. UK has the fishing waters, which the EU sees as valuable. So it is a trade off.

Do you know how much FDI is worth to Ireland, what about the fishing industry? Do you know the value of exports to the EU and other countries that we have FTA with due to the EU?

But you propose that we split from the EU to get more fish, and potentially give up all of the other benefits?

I would like to see a reasoned explanation of the costs v benefit of such a decision.

ancapailldorcha

lawred2 wrote: »

sure by that logic nobody has played any part at all in Brexit

because the Tories govern on the back of a minority popular vote.. British people know what their voting system means.

It's a factual statement anyway to say that NI played a part in Brexit. Brexit needed the support of the DUP. So NI has played a supporting role in Brexit.

I didn't see any parties from Scotland or Wales propping up the English Tories.

That the DUP didn't have popular support for their position doesn't really negate their relevance.

That's nonsense. The UK voted for Brexit and then for the conservatives in two subsequent elections.

I think it's unfair to blame NI for the DUP when most people probably consider them loathsome although, if your a Nationalist you probably think they're God's gift and not unreasonably so.

VinLieger

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's nonsense. The UK voted for Brexit and then for the conservatives in two subsequent elections.

I think it's unfair to blame NI for the DUP when most people probably consider them loathsome although, if your a Nationalist you probably think they're God's gift and not unreasonably so.

Dont forget they also voted by 67% against changing from FPtP to STV in 2011.


I would argue that if STV had been in place Brexit would have been impossible to achieve.

ancapailldorcha

VinLieger wrote: »

Dont forget they also voted by 67% against changing from FPtP to STV in 2011.


I would argue that if STV had been in place Brexit would have been impossible to achieve.

It wasn't to STV but to AV and the turnout was 47%. Still abysmal mind.

lawred2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's nonsense. The UK voted for Brexit and then for the conservatives in two subsequent elections.

I think it's unfair to blame NI for the DUP when most people probably consider them loathsome although, if your a Nationalist you probably think they're God's gift and not unreasonably so.

I'm not "blaming" NI.

But the DUP are voted for by NI residents and represent NI in Parliament. When called upon they stood side by side with the Tories giving them a needed majority.

That's playing a role in delivering Brexit to me.

Kermit.de.frog

Tony Connelly has put more flesh on the bone here

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1336628609574985728

The part that really stands out is how certain products like mince, sausages, unfrozen foods etc will have to be sourced either locally or from the republic after a few months grace period.

Also the line about UK food standards not changing from Jan 1st might infuriate GB brexiters.

Donald Trump

Bonniedog wrote: »

I am a republican who finds it pathetic that the same people who were so far up the Br1t's ar3e you couldn't see their feet, are now "donning the green jersey" in support of their new overlords in Brussels. The ones who landed us with a €64 billion bank debt.

The Brits have a perfect right to protect their fisheries and as Ray Bissett and others who were in Irish diplomatic service have pointed out, it would have made more sense for this state to make common cause on that given that the two islands control such a huge proportion of the "EU fishery", rather than their usual slavish brown nosing of the biggest bully in town.

As for the post colonial mentality, I refer you to a government that wanted to celebrate the scum who burned Cork this week 100 years ago, and are ashamed of the military campaign that put their sad ar3es where they are now.

New Sinn Féin joining in all of this and jettisoning a century of republican economic policy regarding natural resources is no surprise, no more than their forcing Stanley to apologise for the IRA and making a joke about that other twat from Castleknock.

I thinks it's a whole lot more pathetic for people to want to jump to help the UK regardless of the cost of doing so - especially given the behaviour of the UK towards this country. UK were deluded into thinking the EU would abandon Ireland. Priti Patel even threatened to "starve" Ireland ffs. Brexit is not a natural disaster. It is a conscious and self-inflicted wound. Why should Ireland volunteer to take on additional pain because of UK decision?



And yourself and the bould Ray want Ireland to Ireland to leave the EU...and presumably join the commonwealth again.

FrancieBrady

Wow...just tuned into Brexitcast on the BBC there for the first time. Katya Adler and Laura Kunnesberg basically playing 'I'm a EUer get me out of here'

Is that the way the BBC do serious political discourse now? Just flabberghasted to be honest.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wow...just tuned into Brexitcast on the BBC there for the first time. Katya Adler and Laura Kunnesberg basically playing 'I'm a EUer get me out of here'

Is that the way the BBC do serious political discourse now? Just flabberghasted to be honest.

They're probably suffering from brexit burn out like the rest of us(Ireland and Britain)

Padre_Pio

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Tony Connelly has put more flesh on the bone here

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1336628609574985728

The part that really stands out is how certain products like mince, sausages, unfrozen foods etc will have to be sourced either locally or from the republic after a few months grace period.

Also the line about UK food standards not changing from Jan 1st might infuriate GB brexiters.

Does that deal have an expiry date?

Peregrinus

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Does that deal have an expiry date?

UK's (unilateral) commitment is that it will remain fully aligned to EU food safety and animal health rules for the production of agrifood products destined for Northern Ireland.

This commitment will continue so long as the derogations/exemptions from certain EU food safety rules for meat and dairy products imported from GB to NI continue.

Those derogations/exemptions are agreed between UK and EU in the Joint Committee.

They have already been agreed in principle, but I'm not sure how long they have been agreed for. However long it is, they could always be extended by the Joint Comittee.

Ardillaun

On the issue of fisheries, I’d go further than Cap’n BoJo and his jolly Brexit maties. Given the way we are close to wiping out many fish species on the planet, nobody should be allowed to fish outside their own national territorial waters for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I’m looking at you, China, Russia and Spain, among many others. Destroy your own stocks if you want but hands off the rest.

Henryq.

Was always going to be mayhem at the ports with freight etc.

How could you possibly get a smooth transition with so much stuff moving around

It's going to be nuts over there and I predict BJ will be out on his head very soon

SEPT 23 1989

Henryq. wrote: »

Was always going to be mayhem at the ports with freight etc.

How could you possibly get a smooth transition with so much stuff moving around

It's going to be nuts over there and I predict BJ will be out on his head very soon

Wait till you see what happens over here

at least they seem to have some sort of plan and infrastructure in place

Sure Park up in petrol stations and on the hard shoulder of M50 at wait will not work

Chaos

Henryq.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Wait till you see what happens over here

at least they seem to have some sort of plan and infrastructure in place

Sure Park up in petrol stations and on the hard shoulder of M50 at wait will not work

Chaos

It's chaos over there now at the ports

lawred2

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Wait till you see what happens over here

at least they seem to have some sort of plan and infrastructure in place

Sure Park up in petrol stations and on the hard shoulder of M50 at wait will not work

Chaos

Some sort of a plan doesn't make a working plan

SEPT 23 1989

lawred2 wrote: »

Some sort of a plan doesn't make a working plan

Its better than our effort

a couple of days of bad weather and there will be serious issues around Dublin

Bonniedog

Ardillaun wrote: »

On the issue of fisheries, I’d go further than Cap’n BoJo and his jolly Brexit maties. Given the way we are close to wiping out many fish species on the planet, nobody should be allowed to fish outside their own national territorial waters for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I’m looking at you, China, Russia and Spain, among many others. Destroy your own stocks if you want but hands off the rest.

Only the "far right" and people who want to join the Commonwealth are in favour of your proposal according to the EU batty boys here

Sinn Féin - the Let's Swap Colonial Masters, Actually We Can Have Both - Party.

completedit

Listened to economist dani rodrik a few weeks back. He spoke about how we have 3 choices: Sovereignty, democracy and globalization. We have to choose 2 of the 3. We'd assume everyone wants democracy so that leads to a decision between being a truly independent country or one integrated into the global economy. You can't just relegate the will to be a truly sovereign nation imo. The nation state may have had its day but it is inevitable you will have people pushing back against this.

I also read utopia for realists and in the book he talks about how politics has just become about fixing problems, not ideals. We can't strip everything down to pure data and figures. Do people really notice a few per cent increase in GDP in a western nation? How rich can we possibly be? The problem in countries like the UK is not a lack of wealth but a failure to distribute it more fairly. This will be true with an Australian Deal, an Afghan deal, Canada deal, whatever deal they do or don't come up with.

We might disagree with Brexit and the mentality of Johnson and Farage and all the other 'little Englanders', but sometimes you just have to stand for something. I'll never get the people who support the EU on a purely economic basis. That sort of thinking is very common in Ireland; you never hear politicians talk about the ideology of the project or the cultural significance of it, it's always purely about economics. There has to be more to it; has to represent something more. Otherwise, it just hangs in the balance on the basis of economic performance. That's why the UK left; it never meant anything to them on a deeper level.

lawred2

completedit wrote: »

Listened to economist dani rodrik a few weeks back. He spoke about how we have 3 choices: Sovereignty, democracy and globalization. We have to choose 2 of the 3. We'd assume everyone wants democracy so that leads to a decision between being a truly independent country or one integrated into the global economy. You can't just relegate the will to be a truly sovereign nation imo. The nation state may have had its day but it is inevitable you will have people pushing back against this.

I also read utopia for realists and in the book he talks about how politics has just become about fixing problems, not ideals. We can't strip everything down to pure data and figures. Do people really notice a few per cent increase in GDP in a western nation? How rich can we possibly be? The problem in countries like the UK is not a lack of wealth but a failure to distribute it more fairly.

We might disagree with Brexit and the mentality of Johnson and Farage and all the other 'little Englanders', but sometimes you just have to stand for something. I'll never get the people who support the EU on a purely economic basis. That sort of thinking is very common in Ireland; you never hear politicians talk about the ideology of the project or the cultural significance of it, it's always purely about economics. There has to be more to it; has to represent something more.

independent and not integrated into a global economy?

you can't be both?

not sure what independent and not integrated into a global economy means... North Korea maybe