Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

fash

Donald Trump wrote: »

Why on earth would, or should, Ireland bend over to help the UK at no benefit to themselves? UK mindset towards Ireland in Brexit seems to have been "we're the big guys and we can bully and threaten them and tell them what to do. The EU wont stick up for them".


It would be of course far better had the UK not chosen to leave. But once they did then we have to make a choice. And the choice to stay in a strong and united EU is better than isolating ourselves just to be closer to the UK so that they could try to bully us around some more.


What would you have proposed? Maybe that Ireland leave the single market and enter into a free trade area with the UK? So that there would be customs and barriers on anything going to or coming from the continent?

Give up the 93.2% (and increasing) of our exports to protect the 6.8% (and dropping) going to UK - while also doing whatever the UK wants (hey maybe they'll be nice to us in this future though - and won't threaten to starve everyone and prevent medicines from arriving - the way they did in 2018 and 2019).

Grab All Association

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1338205160309403650?s=21

https://twitter.com/peterkgeoghegan/status/1338126533567844353?s=21

Vile anti-Irish sentiment yet no Irish media reported on it.

Padre_Pio

Grab All Association wrote: »

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1338205160309403650?s=21

https://twitter.com/peterkgeoghegan/status/1338126533567844353?s=21

Vile anti-Irish sentiment yet no Irish media reported on it.

Probably best not to give it any attention.

Henryq.

Grab All Association wrote: »

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1338205160309403650?s=21

https://twitter.com/peterkgeoghegan/status/1338126533567844353?s=21

Vile anti-Irish sentiment yet no Irish media reported on it.

They're funny

Was that 2nd tweet from Taylor or McKenzie?

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/extra3/status/1338761750829797376?s=20

Kermit.de.frog

PM says no deal is ‘very likely’ after speaking to Ursula von der Leyen

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/17/european-parliament-sunday-deadline-post-brexit-trade-deal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkanfoE2kPM

RobMc59

It appears French fishermen are becoming increasingly desperate about access to UK fishing grounds.
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-french-fishermen-warn-they-will-take-action-if-uk-doesnt-get-a-deal-12166812

J Mysterio

Taking back 'control'.

https://twitter.com/CarstenVolkery/status/1340234501239279616?s=20

Leroy42

J Mysterio wrote: »

Taking back 'control'.

https://twitter.com/CarstenVolkery/status/1340234501239279616?s=20

Tbf, they never Claimed the systems would be linked.

It a trust based system. But there is a fine if one is caught without one.

Kermit.de.frog

ExMachina1000

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

EU are begging for fishing rights at this stage.
This is the 3rd time they have changed their position. Boris said no

Bonniedog

And yet some Europhiles here were claiming that fisheries are irrelevant.

EU has taken hundreds of billions worth of fish from waters that are or ought to be the sovereign territory of Ireland and Britain. Of course they want to keep that access open.

the traitors here who now include Sinn Féin are only too happy to allow them too just as they all - including the Shinners - voted for the bank bailout. You know, the €64,000,000,000 one.

Talk about fkn Stockholm Syndrome. Same sort of slaves evicted people during the famine and Land War.

Might get the odd pat in the head from some degenerate drunken French Brussels bureaucrat as a reward :-)

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

EU are begging for fishing rights at this stage.
This is the 3rd time they have changed their position. Boris said no

Boris is the third UK Prime minister in the past four and a half years but the EU are the ones changing position...

J Mysterio

Leroy42 wrote: »

Tbf, they never Claimed the systems would be linked.

It a trust based system. But there is a fine if one is caught without one.

The whole point was to take control over their borders, yet the system for doing so is half assed, like everything else in Brexit. Farce.

Bubbaclaus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Too good

Leroy42

Bonniedog wrote: »

And yet some Europhiles here were claiming that fisheries are irrelevant.

EU has taken hundreds of billions worth of fish from waters that are or ought to be the sovereign territory of Ireland and Britain. Of course they want to keep that access open.

the traitors here who now include Sinn Féin are only too happy to allow them too just as they all - including the Shinners - voted for the bank bailout. You know, the €64,000,000,000 one.

Talk about fkn Stockholm Syndrome. Same sort of slaves evicted people during the famine and Land War.

Might get the odd pat in the head from some degenerate drunken French Brussels bureaucrat as a reward :-)

So you think Ireland should leave the EU and do what? Because that is what you are advocating. EU have a valuable market, Ireland had valuable resources. They traded one for the other.

It sounds great all this giving out about people selling out, but do you have an alternative and what impact would that have on the country?

Leroy42

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Probably one of these wanting Ireland to rejoin the United Kingdom because it was all one big happy family

Those arguements mirror the Brexit thinking, all based on a ideal that just doesn't align with reality. Edit - not your arguement, I mean Bonnies.

Life is about choices. Ireland could leave the EU tomorrow and get back full control of the fishing waters, but there is a cost.

Bonnie, and Brexiteers, talk as if decisions have no consequences, no cost.

I assume that Ireland will actually lose even more of it fishing under any Brexit deal, to help compensate French etc fishing for loss of UK waters. But we have gained by having no border with NI.

Is it, if it happens, a good trade off? Don't know, would think it is, but whichever it is it is a trade off.

But the cost of the trade off lies solely at the feet of the UK for taking the decision to inact Brexit.

Bonniedog

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Probably one of these wanting Ireland to rejoin the United Kingdom because it was all one big happy family

The same people now brown nosing every shyster in a suit in Brussels are same ones who were handing over Irish republicans to the Brits.

I was in the republican movement then. I doubt any of you "green jersey" merchants were.

Leroy42

Bonniedog wrote: »

The same people now brown nosing every shyster in a suit in Brussels are same ones who were handing over Irish republicans to the Brits.

I was in the republican movement then. I doubt any of you "green jersey" merchants were.

Right, so actual alternatives just that everyone else is a turncoat sellout.

Great, let’s leave the EU to regain control of ours waters, not sure how you intend to limit UK boats, but then what?

What about the loss of FDI? What about the loss of citizens rights in the EU? What about access to capital?

Bonniedog

Leroy42 wrote: »

Right, so actual alternatives just that everyone else is a turncoat sellout.

Great, let’s leave the EU to regain control of ours waters, not sure how you intend to limit UK boats, but then what?

What about the loss of FDI? What about the loss of citizens rights in the EU? What about access to capital?

People like you said exactly the same thing during the Tan War and the 1920s and even into the 1930s.

You would imagine that no one had a pot to p1ss in before the state joined the EEC.

As for FDI, vast proportion is from US, and that began in 1950s pre EEC application and beccame the major element in the economy in 1960s when it looked as though France would always block Irish entry.

Ireland only applied and joined because the Brits were!

Had this state joined when non agri economy was weak, we would be in similar state to places like some of the former socialist states. Suppliers of raw materials and cheap labour. As it is we sacrificed fishing and the development of offshore fossil fuels (look at Norway), and food processing here rather than live and unprocessed exports to change one dependency for another.

That's not the fault of the EU. they were just exploiting the instincts of a weak subservient ruling elite and business class that swapped one master for another.

ILoveYourVibes

Bonniedog wrote: »

Ireland only applied and joined because the Brits were!

.

yup .they only let us IN because the brits were joining. They knew they would have issues with the border even back then. THAT administration wasn't dumb.

We were only let in the EU because the UK joined.

We were even then a big customer to the UK. And you have the same market issue with two countries being in separate ones.

It wouldn't have been impossible for the UK to join alone by any means. But us joining at the same time definitely made life easier for them.

It was i think seen as sweetening the deal from the eu side to let us in.

Yes they got our fishing etc. But well....the eu wasn't knocking on our door to have us join...they had been knocking on the uk's door asking them to join for years tho. We don't have oil like Norway has oil. Not by a long shot.

You are right ..the french were NEVER going to let us in.

Donald Trump

Bonniedog wrote: »

People like you said exactly the same thing during the Tan War and the 1920s and even into the 1930s.

You would imagine that no one had a pot to p1ss in before the state joined the EEC.

As for FDI, vast proportion is from US, and that began in 1950s pre EEC application and beccame the major element in the economy in 1960s when it looked as though France would always block Irish entry.

Ireland only applied and joined because the Brits were!

Had this state joined when non agri economy was weak, we would be in similar state to places like some of the former socialist states. Suppliers of raw materials and cheap labour. As it is we sacrificed fishing and the development of offshore fossil fuels (look at Norway), and food processing here rather than live and unprocessed exports to change one dependency for another.

That's not the fault of the EU. they were just exploiting the instincts of a weak subservient ruling elite and business class that swapped one master for another.

Are you a fan of Nigel Farage?



To your other historical points, Ireland always looked to the continent for help in its struggle against the English.

Padre_Pio

Bonniedog wrote: »

People like you said exactly the same thing during the Tan War and the 1920s and even into the 1930s.

I see posts like this and it's all just fantasy.

Some people have rose tinted glasses about the past, and put optimism over experience when predicting the future.

Ireland has done well out of the EU, and personally I'm happier that Brussels has a hand in our affairs rather than leaving it solely to parish pump politicians.

First Up

Bonniedog wrote:

As for FDI, vast proportion is from US, and that began in 1950s pre EEC application and beccame the major element in the economy in 1960s when it looked as though France would always block Irish entry.

Ireland only applied and joined because the Brits were!

FDI has driven the transformation of the Irish economy from an agricultural society with protected local industries (like furniture, footwear. textiles) into a high tech, knowledge based economy. It began with the Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement in 1965. The same strategy underpinned our joining the EU in 1973.

Ireland provides US companies with an English speaking base inside the EU and Eurozone. After Brexit we no longer have competition for that.

Dyr

Leroy42 wrote: »

Those arguements mirror the Brexit thinking, all based on a ideal that just doesn't align with reality. Edit - not your arguement, I mean Bonnies.

Life is about choices. Ireland could leave the EU tomorrow and get back full control of the fishing waters, but there is a cost.

Bonnie, and Brexiteers, talk as if decisions have no consequences, no cost.

I assume that Ireland will actually lose even more of it fishing under any Brexit deal, to help compensate French etc fishing for loss of UK waters. But we have gained by having no border with NI.

Is it, if it happens, a good trade off? Don't know, would think it is, but whichever it is it is a trade off.

But the cost of the trade off lies solely at the feet of the UK for taking the decision to inact Brexit.

The real problem is that a sound and sensible concept, a free trade zone and a European community acting in unison on mutual interests is made contingent on consenting to a project that most Europeans dont want, a United States of Europe where the fundamental powers that define nation states are divested from the democratic control of those nation states

If you dont like it, you can leave? The Brits didnt like it and they left, regardless of the economic consequences. Will the EU get the hint? Or will that take Italy to leave? Or LePen to come to power in France?

First Up

Bambi wrote:

The real problem is that a sound and sensible concept, a free trade zone and a European community acting in unison on mutual interests is made contingent on consenting to a project that most Europeans dont want, a United States of Europe where the fundamental powers that define nation states are divested from the democratic control of those nation states

No such project has, is or will be made a condition of EU membership.

Snickers Man

Leroy42 wrote: »

Do you know how much FDI is worth to Ireland, what about the fishing industry? Do you know the value of exports to the EU and other countries that we have FTA with due to the EU?

But you propose that we split from the EU to get more fish, and potentially give up all of the other benefits?

I would like to see a reasoned explanation of the costs v benefit of such a decision.

So would I.

This mantra that fish is to the Irish economy what oil is to Kuwait or Saudi Arabia is such infantile, populist, lamebrain bull **** that the sort of person who espouses it should really put some numbers on the table, show where they got them and how reliable they are and then project forwards to see how sustainable they are in the long run.

The sad fact is that as a nation we hate fish, and seafood generally. What are the great Irish seafood delicacies: cod 'n chips (that isn't really cod any more because it's been fished to near extinction); the occasional salmon at a wedding dinner; prawn-cocktail flavoured crisps.

We are almost as averse to shellfish as the Jews (to whom it is prohibited, like pork, on religious grounds). Yeah, there's the Dublin oyster festival but come on, who really likes oysters? Just pick your nose and eat that for a low-cost, and near identical, alternative experience in terms of both taste and texture.

The only value "our" fisheries have to us is as an export commodity, and if we weren't in the EU that would be worth bugger all to us anyway.

Fish is a small (and dwindling) part of our economic story. As another poster said, it might do no harm just to stop fishing altogether to let stocks recuperate. Then all talk of "access to fishing waters" would be moot anyway.

More chips (of the silicon kind); less fish. We can live without cod n chips for a few years.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

No such project has, is or will be made a condition of EU membership.

What does “ever closer Union” mean?

No one has ever defined that and there are key figures within the eu that believe federalisation is the goal.

I’m not saying it will happen, but I don’t believe you can say it will not for certain.

Bonniedog

Snickers Man wrote: »

So would I.

This mantra that fish is to the Irish economy what oil is to Kuwait or Saudi Arabia is such infantile, populist, lamebrain bull **** that the sort of person who espouses it should really put some numbers on the table, show where they got them and how reliable they are and then project forwards to see how sustainable they are in the long run.

The sad fact is that as a nation we hate fish, and seafood generally. What are the great Irish seafood delicacies: cod 'n chips (that isn't really cod any more because it's been fished to near extinction); the occasional salmon at a wedding dinner; prawn-cocktail flavoured crisps.

We are almost as averse to shellfish as the Jews (to whom it is prohibited, like pork, on religious grounds). Yeah, there's the Dublin oyster festival but come on, who really likes oysters? Just pick your nose and eat that for a low-cost, and near identical, alternative experience in terms of both taste and texture.

The only value "our" fisheries have to us is as an export commodity, and if we weren't in the EU that would be worth bugger all to us anyway.

Fish is a small (and dwindling) part of our economic story. As another poster said, it might do no harm just to stop fishing altogether to let stocks recuperate. Then all talk of "access to fishing waters" would be moot anyway.

More chips (of the silicon kind); less fish. We can live without cod n chips for a few years.

And you refer to others as "lamebrains" :rolleyes:

If fish is of such unimportance then why did the EEC make its surrender THE key factor in admitting this state in 1972?

And why are they making it a red line issue now?

Leroy42

Bonniedog wrote: »

And you refer to others as "lamebrains" :rolleyes:

If fish is of such unimportance then why did the EEC make its surrender THE key factor in admitting this state in 1972?

And why are they making it a red line issue now?

It is important to them, more than us.

You seem to inhabit a world of no consequences or decisions. Everything is either or, and nothing impacts on anything else.

We offered precious little to the EEC back in 1972. They would need to invest billions to get us sorted, we had no natural resources. What we did have was fish, and it was part of the UK joining.

We areca tiny market with, at the time, a civil war happening on the island.

So they saw that at least they could increase their fishing reach. And for that our entire society has been transformed.

Our economy is now a strong one, we have thrown off the yoke of the church, we have embraced European ideas and ideals, we have become socially liberal, our politicians now need to answer to others, our almost complete dependency on the UK has been reduced.

But you think, nah, screw that. Let's go back to comely maidens, massive unemployment, massive emmerigration, endemic political corruption, lack of travel.

All for fish! Which given the climate changes and calls for more sustainable food sources will continue to decline.