Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

ohnonotgmail

RobMc59 wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What's your solution? New border controls throughout Europe?
Could these be technology based?
Christ, this is stooping real low, even for you

If people are entering Europe unchecked that suggests Europe needs to get its act together.Could you explain how pointing this problem out is 'stooping low'?

every border is porous to some extent.

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

If people are entering Europe unchecked that suggests Europe needs to get its act together.Could you explain how pointing this problem out is 'stooping low'?

So hang on a sec because you're saying something different now.
Is your issue in terms of the EU's external border or as you previously mentioned "the apparent lack of border control within the EU"?
(my emphasis)
But yes, you're stooping low with this IMO!

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So hang on a sec because you're saying something different now.
Is your issue in terms of the EU's external border or as you previously mentioned "the apparent lack of border control within the EU"?
(my emphasis)
But yes, you're stooping low with this IMO!

Don't you have an issue with people entering Europe,travelling across numerous countries unchecked?
Don't you have any concerns about security?
If it wasn't such a serious issue it would be laughable as it totally blows away the popular assertion amongst those here who hang off every edict from Brussels,those who don't tow the echo chamber line are labelled as 'stooping low'.Just to prempt the standard tiresome accusations of being a brexiteer,I'd prefer to have remained in the EU.

ohnonotgmail

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't you have an issue with people entering Europe,travelling across numerous countries unchecked?
Don't you have any concerns about security?
If it wasn't such a serious issue it would be laughable as it totally blows away the popular assertion amongst those here who hang off every edict from Brussels those who don't tow the echo chamber line are labelled as 'stooping low'.Just to prempt the standard tiresome accusations of being a brexiteer,I'd prefer to have remained in the EU.

I have no problem with people travelling internally within the EU. the issue with the external EU borders is not related to this.

RobMc59

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I have no problem with people travelling internally within the EU. the issue with the external EU borders is not related to this.

I was referring to people entering Europe illegally and travelling across Europe unchecked.

J Mysterio

Aegir wrote: »

allowing people to leave the Schengen zone unchecked is a breach of the schengen treaty, is it not?

Therefore a breach of international law.

False equivelance. You are truly ridiculous.
The lengths you will go to in order to defend the indefensible is extraordinary.

This is the mindest the EU is trying to negotiate with. An impossible task.

ohnonotgmail

RobMc59 wrote: »

I was referring to people entering Europe illegally and travelling across Europe unchecked.

so the problem then is with the external border. and every external border is porous to some extent

steddyeddy

RobMc59 wrote: »

From what I've seen on UK media it's viewed as untrustworthy and suggests that the UK is unreliable.
Personally,I'd have preferred Keir Starmer to have ripped into Johnson about it but his reaction to date has been disappointing.

I agree Rob. Keir usually rips Boris apart in PM's questions time, however, he's been remarkable tame during this. Maybe he knows everyone else will do it for him?

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

On a serious note,the apparent lack of border control within the EU is a recipe for disaster if fanatical terrorists decide to use it as a route to Europe undetected.

So you would agree that there should be strict border controls between England and the three Celtic provinces?

Because in the history of fanatical terrorism, the UK still leads the world in having bred and suffered the most incidents and deaths, thanks to the IRA.

You may not be aware of the current cross-border arrangements that operate within the Schengen zone. It is normal these days, for Belgian police to continue a chase into France, or for the French police to board German trains in Germany to remove a suspicious character. Sure, there are rules that frame the limits of this kind of activity, but that takes us back to the concept of pooled sovereignty for the common good. The risk that you evoke is greatly mitigated by effective cooperation - and our political structures here on the continent encourage such behaviour.

moritz1234

RobMc59 wrote: »

I was referring to people entering Europe illegally and travelling across Europe unchecked.

Nothing really to do with the EU

The Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, also known as the 1951 Refugee Convention or the Geneva Convention of 28 July 1951[2], is a United Nations multilateral treaty that defines who a refugee is, and sets out the rights of individuals who are granted asylum and the responsibilities of nations that grant asylum. The Convention also sets out which people do not qualify as refugees, such as war criminals.

The UK think it's something to do with the EU - another lie

moritz1234

steddyeddy wrote: »

I agree Rob. Keir usually rips Boris apart in PM's questions time, however, he's been remarkable tame during this. Maybe he knows everyone else will do it for him?

Keir playing a blinder imo - Johnson had his notes ready to have an argument on Brexit go off on one of his lying blustering rants, probably calling Keir a remainer and unpatriotic etc.

Keir gave him absolutely no ammunition

steddyeddy

Do you know what's fascinating about all this?

Boris Johnson and the Brexiters helped draw up this withdrawal agreement. He then signed it and lauded it as a great deal for Britain. Then he claims it isn't fair to the UK. Is it fair to say that people who support Boris in this are as thick as pig sh1t?

moritz1234

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you know what's fascinating about all this?

Boris Johnson and the Brexiters helped draw up this withdrawal agreement. He then signed it and lauded it as a great deal for Britain. Then he claims it isn't fair to the UK. Is it fair to say that people who support Boris in this are as thick as pig sh1t?

Plus there was a vote in Jan 2020 in parliament under this government.
Own it

Professor Moriarty

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you know what's fascinating about all this?

Boris Johnson and the Brexiters helped draw up this withdrawal agreement. He then signed it and lauded it as a great deal for Britain. Then he claims it isn't fair to the UK. Is it fair to say that people who support Boris in this are as thick as pig sh1t?

It was oven ready. But now it's past its use-by date. So he needs to go to the shop to get a fresh one. But the shop is shut.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

On a serious note,the apparent lack of border control within the EU is a recipe for disaster if fanatical terrorists decide to use it as a route to Europe undetected.

Have you only learned about Schengen today?

steddyeddy

moritz1234 wrote: »

Plus there was a vote in Jan 2020 in parliament under this government.
Own it

I'm fascinated with the way people laud BJ as a clever man pretending to be stupid. I think there's an element of snobbery here. He went to Eton therefore must be clever. Prior to Eton he attended Ashdown house a prep school for people like Boris. He was always going to go to Eton and Oxford. Since his school days he has been an incompetent mayor, foreign secretary and PM.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It was oven ready. But now it's past its use-by date. So he needs to go to the shop to get a fresh one. But the shop is shut.

Its like that shopper who spends an hour looking at the shelf, cant make up his mind what he wants for dinner, then hears the announcement over the tannoy that shop is closing and has to reach for nearest thing and rush to the checkout. Only when he gets home he sees the meal is non microwavable and his gas oven is on the blink.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Have you only learned about Schengen today?

I was referring to the uncontrolled migration of people from the middle east into and across Europe.What has that got to do with schengen?

Professor Moriarty

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm fascinated with the way people laud BJ as a clever man pretending to be stupid. I think there's an element of snobbery here. He went to Eton therefore must be clever. Prior to Eton he attended Ashdown house a prep school for people like Boris. He was always going to go to Eton and Oxford. Since his school days he has been an incompetent mayor, foreign secretary and PM.

And was fired as a journalist for lying. And wouldn't have a job but for an elitist background. And cheated on multiple women. And craves adulation. Reminds me of someone but their name escapes me.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Its like that shopper who spends an hour looking at the shelf, cant make up his mind what he wants for dinner, then hears the announcement over the tannoy that shop is closing and has to reach for nearest thing and rush to the checkout. Only when he gets home he sees the meal is non microwavable and his gas oven is on the blink.

Very well put!

ohnonotgmail

RobMc59 wrote: »

I was referring to the uncontrolled migration of people from the middle east into and across Europe.What has that got to do with schengen?

ahem

the apparent lack of border control within the EU is a recipe for disaster

is that not what schengen is?

ArmaniJeanss

RobMc59 wrote: »

I was referring to the uncontrolled migration of people from the middle east into and across Europe.What has that got to do with schengen?

Because its's really unclear whether you are referring to Europe (the entire continent of 50+ countries), or the EU, or to the Schengen area. Or some subset of one or more.
Maybe, and I mean this in a nice way, clarify your thought process before asking.

RobMc59

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ahem


is that not what schengen is?

You have taken a section of my post and implied I was berating free movement within Europe by citizens of schengen countries which I wasn't.I referred to hordes of people from the middle east entering Europe unchecked.Are they ok to roam around at will once they're in Europe?If that is the case I was unaware of that.

RobMc59

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Because its's really unclear whether you are referring to Europe (the entire continent of 50+ countries), or the EU, or to the Schengen area. Or some subset of one or more.
Maybe, and I mean this in a nice way, clarify your thought process before asking.

I assumed the floods of people entering Europe from the middle east were doing so illegally and weren't from countries within the schengen area.

ambro25

RobMc59 wrote: »

On a serious note,the apparent lack of border control within the EU is a recipe for disaster if fanatical terrorists decide to use it as a route to Europe undetected.

That post is doing the Timewarp, like it's 2015 all over again.

Like the last few years'worth of ad hoc derogations (to the no-full-checks principle) by continental member states in the name of terrorism prevention, never mind the temporary full closure of continental borders throughout the past 6 months to impede Covid transmission, never happened.

Please do yourself a favour and read up at least a little about Schengen. It's really not the free-for-all everyone-go-anywhere-they-please, that red tops and Farages of this world would have you believe.

ArmaniJeanss

RobMc59 wrote: »

I assumed the floods of people entering Europe from the middle east were doing so illegally and weren't from countries within the schengen area.

Once you are into Schengen, then 'roaming around' is rather easy alright. You'd be unlucky to be stopped at any border, e.g., generally trains or coaches wouldn't be stopped.
'Roaming around' isn't of itself very important or useful though. It doesn't mean you can go from Country A to B and immediately have a set of rights in Country B.

I thought it was well known that within Schengen there are few border controls, in ordinary times anyway (preCovid)?
Have you not crossed a border within it?

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

False equivelance. You are truly ridiculous.
The lengths you will go to in order to defend the indefensible is extraordinary.

This is the mindest the EU is trying to negotiate with. An impossible task.

ignoring the personal abuse, which i have obviously reported, false equivalence to what?

ambro25

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Once you are into Schengen, then 'roaming around' is rather easy alright. You'd be unlucky to be stopped at any border, e.g., generally trains or coaches wouldn't be stopped.
'Roaming around' isn't of itself very important or useful though. It doesn't mean you can go from Country A to B and immediately have a set of rights in Country B.

I thought it was well known that within Schengen there are few border controls, in ordinary times anyway (preCovid)?
Have you not crossed a border within it?

In this day and age, those 'nonexistent' borders are in fact electronic: they still exist just fine, but as databases and algorithms in which ID data (incl.visa etc) is stored and checked, and it is mostly ELINT that triggers IRL searches and controls.

For 3rd party nationals, that ID data gets input at external border entry, and checked out at external border exit, wherein a visa overstay is easily determined by lack of exit event before visa expiry, and the (now qualifying as-) illegal immigrant gets flagged up across member states' (respective systems) for pick up on any next ID spot-check. This is currently getting consolidated under the recent ESS regulation.

There's plenty of customs & immigration types around, at all times, aboard those cross-border trains and all major transport nodes/stations.

RobMc59

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Once you are into Schengen, then 'roaming around' is rather easy alright. You'd be unlucky to be stopped at any border, e.g., generally trains or coaches wouldn't be stopped.
'Roaming around' isn't of itself very important or useful though. It doesn't mean you can go from Country A to B and immediately have a set of rights in Country B.

I thought it was well known that within Schengen there are few border controls, in ordinary times anyway (preCovid)?
Have you not crossed a border within it?

Yes,I've crossed borders within Europe.
Can you clarify the situation regarding the people entering Europe from the middle east -are they entering illegally and what is their status once in Europe?

joeguevara

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yes,I've crossed borders within Europe.
Can you clarify the situation regarding the people entering Europe from the middle east -are they entering illegally and what is their status once in Europe?

case by case basis surely.