Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

Buer

Bernard Jackman made an interesting point (I know, I know) on The42.ie podcast about how badly PLR have handled the whole thing and created an impossible situation for Saracens. They handed out the deduction and fine in November at which point it was thought to the only sanction. They were then asked to make efforts to bring their squad within the cap. As Jackman said, there's simply no way Saracens could do that. They would be reliant on other teams agreeing to take players off their hands which would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. The French teams would have had their squads filled at that point. They could contact every club in Europe but would struggle to move anyone on mid-season.

A few months pass and the additional sanctions are announced with Saracens relegated. This completely flips the situation on its head. Up to that point, Saracens were all in on the league and Europe was secondary. Now the league is over for them and Europe is paramount. Because of this, they've already finished runner up in their pool and scraped into the knock outs with the single toughest possible fixture ahead of them. The lack of clarity and decisive action by PRL is pretty poor. It appears that they may have bowed to pressure from the other clubs/stakeholders who ramped up the scrutiny to get Saracens relegated against the reports recommendations.

Where I totally disagree with him (that feels better), is his claim that the other teams would have fully believe the 35 point deduction would be sufficient to relegate Saracens. A 35 point deduction would never have been sufficient to relegate them in the past few seasons. He went as far to claim that the other clubs would have done their sums and figured the 35 point would have toppled them.

Exclamation Marc

Zzippy wrote: »

Considering they've been over the cap for 5 of the last 6 seasons, I don't think too many people would shed a tear about that. You're probably right on the first point, PRL will find a way around the regulation that states teams must show compliance with the cap for the previous two seasons in order to be promoted. Sarries are too big a draw wrt TV etc to be allowed languish in the Championship for two years.

This is the same league who's stakeholders forced them down there above the recommended sanction. They're still as bitter and wont have a sudden change of heart and feel bad for them.

Quin_Dub

Zzippy wrote: »

Considering they've been over the cap for 5 of the last 6 seasons, I don't think too many people would shed a tear about that. You're probably right on the first point, PRL will find a way around the regulation that states teams must show compliance with the cap for the previous two seasons in order to be promoted. Sarries are too big a draw wrt TV etc to be allowed languish in the Championship for two years.

Sarries are only a draw because of the Marquee players - If it's confirmed that they are down for two years those guys are gone to other clubs - Saracens the club aren't the attraction , it's the players and they will leave if it will be 2 years in the Championship and 4 years before they get to play in Europe again

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

This is the same league who's stakeholders forced them down there above the recommended sanction. They're still as bitter and wont have a sudden change of heart and feel bad for them.

Yeah.. I'm not seeing the other PRL clubs showing Saracens much mercy to be honest. Why would they?

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Bernard Jackman made an interesting point (I know, I know) on The42.ie podcast about how badly PLR have handled the whole thing and created an impossible situation for Saracens. They handed out the deduction and fine in November at which point it was thought to the only sanction. They were then asked to make efforts to bring their squad within the cap. As Jackman said, there's simply no way Saracens could do that. They would be reliant on other teams agreeing to take players off their hands which would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. The French teams would have had their squads filled at that point. They could contact every club in Europe but would struggle to move anyone on mid-season.

A few months pass and the additional sanctions are announced with Saracens relegated. This completely flips the situation on its head. Up to that point, Saracens were all in on the league and Europe was secondary. Now the league is over for them and Europe is paramount. Because of this, they've already finished runner up in their pool and scraped into the knock outs with the single toughest possible fixture ahead of them. The lack of clarity and decisive action by PRL is pretty poor. It appears that they may have bowed to pressure from the other clubs/stakeholders who ramped up the scrutiny to get Saracens relegated against the reports recommendations.

Where I totally disagree with him (that feels better), is his claim that the other teams would have fully believe the 35 point deduction would be sufficient to relegate Saracens. A 35 point deduction would never have been sufficient to relegate them in the past few seasons. He went as far to claim that the other clubs would have done their sums and figured the 35 point would have toppled them.

I think Sarries refusing to acknowledge fault after the initial sanction and ultimately dragging this out as they have is a critical aspect to how the sanction process has unfolded.

Wrays initial response would have led me to believe the cap would continue to be broken.

There is a reason why the new executive is being far more open about their transgressions.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Bernard Jackman made an interesting point (I know, I know) on The42.ie podcast about how badly PLR have handled the whole thing and created an impossible situation for Saracens. They handed out the deduction and fine in November at which point it was thought to the only sanction. They were then asked to make efforts to bring their squad within the cap. As Jackman said, there's simply no way Saracens could do that. They would be reliant on other teams agreeing to take players off their hands which would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. The French teams would have had their squads filled at that point. They could contact every club in Europe but would struggle to move anyone on mid-season.

A few months pass and the additional sanctions are announced with Saracens relegated. This completely flips the situation on its head. Up to that point, Saracens were all in on the league and Europe was secondary. Now the league is over for them and Europe is paramount. Because of this, they've already finished runner up in their pool and scraped into the knock outs with the single toughest possible fixture ahead of them. The lack of clarity and decisive action by PRL is pretty poor. It appears that they may have bowed to pressure from the other clubs/stakeholders who ramped up the scrutiny to get Saracens relegated against the reports recommendations.

Where I totally disagree with him (that feels better), is his claim that the other teams would have fully believe the 35 point deduction would be sufficient to relegate Saracens. A 35 point deduction would never have been sufficient to relegate them in the past few seasons. He went as far to claim that the other clubs would have done their sums and figured the 35 point would have toppled them.

I completely agree that Saracens were put in an impossible situation. Especially since any contracts broken with players would also count towards the salary cap. The simple response to this argument is they shouldn't have broke the rules in the first place.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Sarries refusing to acknowledge fault after the initial sanction and ultimately dragging this out as they have is a critical aspect to how the sanction process has unfolded.

Wrays initial response would have led me to believe the cap would continue to be broken.

There is a reason why the new executive is being far more open about their transgressions.

Oh, I agree they're absolutely culpable and contributed to their own downfall with their lack of contrition. I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat and I thought the points made on the podcast were interesting i.e. Saracens are absolutely guilty and deserve punishment but the handling of the whole affair by the authorities was quite amateur.

thomond2006

Saracens broke the rules and the other clubs wanted blood. Both can be true I guess.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Oh, I agree they're absolutely culpable and contributed to their own downfall with their lack of contrition. I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat and I thought the points made on the podcast were interesting i.e. Saracens are absolutely guilty and deserve punishment but the handling of the whole affair by the authorities was quite amateur.

I'm not sure what else the PRL could have done. This reminds me of that player a few seasons ago who was cited. Pled guilty and got a reduction, then bad mouthed the process online and had the penalty increased subsequently.

Had Sarries immediately taken urgent steps and had been seen to do their best to address the cap issue then some flexibility may have been forthcoming.

They went the total opposite direction however.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

Bernard Jackman made an interesting point (I know, I know) on The42.ie podcast about how badly PLR have handled the whole thing and created an impossible situation for Saracens. They handed out the deduction and fine in November at which point it was thought to the only sanction. They were then asked to make efforts to bring their squad within the cap. As Jackman said, there's simply no way Saracens could do that. They would be reliant on other teams agreeing to take players off their hands which would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. The French teams would have had their squads filled at that point. They could contact every club in Europe but would struggle to move anyone on mid-season.

.

correct me if im wrong, but isnt it only players who actually play in the premiership whos salary is counted towards the salary cap?

so in that case, it was up to saracens to organise themselves who they would play to the max of the salary cap......

if that meant giving certain players a season long sabbatical, so be it.

CIARAN_BOYLE

sydthebeat wrote: »

correct me if im wrong, but isnt it only players who actually play in the premiership whos salary is counted towards the salary cap?

so in that case, it was up to saracens to organise themselves who they would play to the max of the salary cap......

if that meant giving certain players a season long sabbatical, so be it.

That would be a much better argument if the judgement came 2 weeks earlier (before the return of the world cup winners).

sydthebeat

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

That would be a much better argument if the judgement came 2 weeks earlier (before the return of the world cup winners).

meh, makes no difference in my eyes.....

i dont see why the requirement for saracens to be within the salary cap THIS season was something that PRL, in their sanction, should have had to try to take into account in their requirements.

remember, Saracens had been under the spot light re the salary cap, and in communication with PRLs salary cap manager since the end of LAST season, and had admitted even back then that they had been some "oversights" even back in april 2019.

they hadnt disclosed the co-investments until the end of last season.

so even if sarries had to play academy guys to stay under the salary cap THIS season, then should have opted to.

lawrencesummers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Deleted User wrote: »

I completely agree that Saracens were put in an impossible situation. Especially since any contracts broken with players would also count towards the salary cap. The simple response to this argument is they shouldn't have broke the rules in the first place.

The PRL can’t come out of this without making changes. While sarries broke the rules it should have been detected, sanctioned and resolved a lot sooner than The three and a half seasons it took.

If the PRL don’t have the power to demand a forensic audit of a club then they are not fit for purpose.

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not sure what else the PRL could have done. This reminds me of that player a few seasons ago who was cited. Pled guilty and got a reduction, then bad mouthed the process online and had the penalty increased subsequently.

Had Sarries immediately taken urgent steps and had been seen to do their best to address the cap issue then some flexibility may have been forthcoming.

They went the total opposite direction however.

This. They claimed publicly to be within the cap this season when the news broke in November. They then were asked to prove it by PRL. They refused to cooperate in doing so and were punished a second time. Had they taken it on the chin and been fully open and honest back in November then the point about them being treated harshly in Jan might stand. I dont think it does now though given their continued lies, lack of contrition and refusal to cooperate in the last month or so.

Trojan

Saracens could have chosen to continue to pay their top players, but not play them, effectively reducing the size of the playing squad for the rest of this season. They could have negotiated that with the PRL salary cap manager and he could have informed the rest of PRL that Saracens were acting in good faith to meet the cap for the current season. This is not rocket science.

Instead, they gave two fingers to the PRL and said "here's your £5M quid, 35 points won't relegate us, we're changing nothing".

prawnsambo

Well that didn't last long. Rats are deserting the sinking ship.

Edit: Well, there may be more than one sinking ship involved here.

thomond2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg

thomond2006

Just shut the place down at this stage. A complete embarrassment and shítshow.

Zzippy

Who's next at the bottom of the barrel? Surely has to be Stephen Jones...

prawnsambo

Some of the comments are good.

thegreycity

https://twitter.com/Mark_AFC_Bright/status/1222191374977597442/photo/1

Eod100

Its confirmed that Saracens can only finish 12th. https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1222225662901211136?s=19

sydthebeat

That makes PRL look really, really bad.

Squidgy Black

https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1222227994065932289?s=09

That's the amendment to the salary cap regulations.

I dunno I have to admit I'm a bit conflicted, yes the whole Saracens organisation deserve relegation and to be punished severely, but PRL went around this completely arseways. Multiple regulation changes halfway through the season, making one decision and them changing it a few months later, going against their own recommendations.

Eod100

They could have it handled it better but in fairness it is fairly unprecedented. Thought it was automatic relegation in first place. You would fell bit annoyed if you have already played Saracens before all this, their head likely will be gone after this

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1222227994065932289?s=09

That's the amendment to the salary cap regulations.

I dunno I have to admit I'm a bit conflicted, yes the whole Saracens organisation deserve relegation and to be punished severely, but PRL went around this completely arseways. Multiple regulation changes halfway through the season, making one decision and them changing it a few months later, going against their own recommendations.

It's kind of understandable tbh. They've amended the rules because it was never envisaged that a club, having been found guilty of breaches of the salary cap, would give two fingers to the notion of actually observing it once they'd been found out. And from various sources I've read, they could have agreed with PRL that they would get under the cap this season if they had undertaken not to play certain players for the remainder of the season. Even if that's not the case, a bit of dialogue on how they could become compliant would have gone a long way. Instead of which there was protracted lying about being inside the cap.

thegreycity

It's not really unprecedented. They'd warned Saracens in 2015 originally. How long was this second investigation going on? PRL have made a bags of this.

Quin_Dub

Eod100 wrote: »

They could have it handled it better but in fairness it is fairly unprecedented. Thought it was automatic relegation in first place. You would fell bit annoyed if you have already played Saracens before all this, their head likely will be gone after this

There's certainly an argument to be made about simply nullifying all their results so no-one gains or loses points (or points diff) for any game involving Saracens for the whole season.

Imagine being a team that played a full bore Sarries earlier in the season and lost (or even won narrowly) and then seeing the shambles that shipped a boat load of tries against a fairly mediocre Quins side only to find yourselves missing out on the Top 6 or whatever on Points diff or 2 or 3 league points.

prawnsambo

thegreycity wrote: »

It's not really unprecedented. They'd warned Saracens in 2015 originally. How long was this second investigation going on? PRL have made a bags of this.

The second investigation started before the summer. It concluded in November. Not really sure why you say it's not unprecedented. Yes they were caught before, but it was a minor enough breach and there were other clubs supposedly in the same boat, so it was decided at that time not to make a big thing of it and a warning to all. For them to find subsequently that they were in breach five out of seven seasons and then that; despite protestations to the contrary, they were in breach again this season and wouldn't co-operate. That's unprecedented.

BonnieSituation

Quin_Dub wrote: »

There's certainly an argument to be made about simply nullifying all their results so no-one gains or loses points (or points diff) for any game involving Saracens for the whole season.

Imagine being a team that played a full bore Sarries earlier in the season and lost (or even won narrowly) and then seeing the shambles that shipped a boat load of tries against a fairly mediocre Quins side only to find yourselves missing out on the Top 6 or whatever on Points diff or 2 or 3 league points.

Once it was announced that they were being relegated their results should have been expunged. It's inherently unfair on everyone from earlier in the season. It's a nonsense of a situation.

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's kind of understandable tbh. They've amended the rules because it was never envisaged that a club, having been found guilty of breaches of the salary cap, would give two fingers to the notion of actually observing it once they'd been found out. And from various sources I've read, they could have agreed with PRL that they would get under the cap this season if they had undertaken not to play certain players for the remainder of the season. Even if that's not the case, a bit of dialogue on how they could become compliant would have gone a long way. Instead of which there was protracted lying about being inside the cap.

Ah yeah I understand entirely how it's transpired, and they're not wrong it the end-judgement at all, but it probably would've been better if things had been made a bit clearer to fans at the time of the judgement, for example if they had said Sarries are being given the points fine concurrently on the basis that they comply to the salary cap for this season by Christmas (by whatever means) etc and make a public apology acknowledging the breaches and so on.

The media reporting obviously plays a part in this as we've heard numerous accounts of what was going on throughout the ordeal, and I'm sure PRL were thinking more from a legal standpoint in terms of making statements etc, but it's just one big mess.