Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

Pudsy33

https://www.saracens.com/club-statement-from-nigel-wray/

An interesting statement from Wray. I'd be half inclined to believe him, although it all seems so haphazard and reckless.

connemara man

2020Vision wrote: »

Amusing to read people slobbering all over the independent Dyson Report but deliberately ignoring this key finding and recommendation because it doesn't suit their agenda!

Gobsh1te central!

I didn't mean to speed down this road I was reckless, doesn't make my actions ok

irishbucsfan

2020Vision wrote: »

Amusing to read people slobbering all over the independent Dyson Report but deliberately ignoring this key finding and recommendation because it doesn't suit their agenda!

Gobsh1te central!

No one is ignoring the key finding and recommendation?

It’s the sycophants who can’t understand that the relegation was for offenses outside the scope of the Dyson report, and agreed to by Saracens, that are the genuinely alarming ones

Interested Observer

connemara man wrote: »

I didn't mean to speed down this road I was reckless, doesn't make my actions ok

It's more like 'how was I to know I was speeding, I just slammed my foot down on the accelerator and closed my eyes'.

sydthebeat

2020Vision wrote: »

Amusing to read people slobbering all over the independent Dyson Report but deliberately ignoring this key finding and recommendation because it doesn't suit their agenda!

Gobsh1te central!

the only way the inquiry could find the actions "deliberate", is if there was documentary evidence acknowledging the deals were there to subvert the salary cap.

"reckless" was the highest, most damning description they could legally find.

aloooof

2020Vision wrote: »

Amusing to read people slobbering all over the independent Dyson Report but deliberately ignoring this key finding and recommendation because it doesn't suit their agenda!

Gobsh1te central!

The scope of the report was for the seasons 2016/17 to 2018/19 inclusive. The recommendation of the 35 point deduction and £5m+ fine relate only to those seasons.

The relegation was for continued offences this season. Maybe check your facts before shouting "agenda".

errlloyd

If Saracens hadn't signed Liam Williams and Elliot Daly I'd probably see their position on this. They were mostly hurt by their own players increasing in value, it is slightly different to trying to buy the game.

But then they bought Daly and Williams.

2020Vision

connemara man wrote: »

I didn't mean to speed down this road I was reckless, doesn't make my actions ok

Correct. But you're very unlikely to be jailed for two years for speeding.

What stinks to high heavens is that Saracens are being punished by the clubs who will benefit from their relegation. About as much chance of getting a fair trial and punishment as an accused in one of Stalin's Show Trials.

And believe me, I loathe Saracens as much as the next man, but the way that they're being dumped on by their PL rivals is utterly despicable.

aloooof

2020Vision wrote: »

Correct. But you're very unlikely to be jailed for two years for speeding.

What stinks to high heavens is that Saracens are being punished by the clubs who will benefit from their relegation. About as much chance of getting a fair trial and punishment as an accused in one of Stalin's Show Trials.

And believe me, I loathe Saracens as much as the next man, but the way that they're being dumped on by their PL rivals is utterly despicable.

They're exactly the clubs that should benefit from their relegation as they're the clubs that have suffered due to their recurring salary cap breaches.

irishbucsfan

2020Vision wrote: »

Correct. But you're very unlikely to be jailed for two years for speeding.

What stinks to high heavens is that Saracens are being punished by the clubs who will benefit from their relegation. About as much chance of getting a fair trial and punishment as an accused in one of Stalin's Show Trials.

And believe me, I loathe Saracens as much as the next man, but the way that they're being dumped on by their PL rivals is utterly despicable.

So what would be a fair punishment for any club breaking the salary cap 5 out of 7 seasons?

2020Vision

errlloyd wrote: »

If Saracens hadn't signed Liam Williams and Elliot Daly I'd probably see their position on this. They were mostly hurt by their own players increasing in value, it is slightly different to trying to buy the game.

But then they bought Daly and Williams.

But Williams joined Sarries in 2017?

2020Vision

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what would be a fair punishment for any club breaking the salary cap 5 out of 7 seasons?

How about a substantial fine and a pro-rata reduction of the club's salary cap for the next 5 seasons?

Imaginative I grant you, but that's letting the punishment fit the crime.

2020Vision

aloooof wrote: »

They're exactly the clubs that should benefit from their relegation as they're the clubs that have suffered due to their recurring salary cap breaches.

That argument is predicated on the assumption that a Saracens team playing within the salary cap wouldn't have won the trophies that it won over the past number of years. Which is conjecture rather than fact!

Interested Observer

2020Vision wrote: »

Correct. But you're very unlikely to be jailed for two years for speeding.

What stinks to high heavens is that Saracens are being punished by the clubs who will benefit from their relegation. About as much chance of getting a fair trial and punishment as an accused in one of Stalin's Show Trials.

Bizarre. How you have ended up in a position where it's actually the other clubs somehow wronging Saracens I do no know.

And believe me, I loathe Saracens as much as the next man, but the way that they're being dumped on by their PL rivals is utterly despicable.

Well this is nonsense isn't it?

2020Vision wrote: »

How about a substantial fine and a pro-rata reduction of the club's salary cap for the next 5 seasons?

Imaginative I grant you, but that's letting the punishment fit the crime.

Right, their salary cap is halved next season. What do they do with all the players they have under contract?

Neil3030

2020Vision wrote: »

That argument is predicated on the assumption that a Saracens team playing within the salary cap wouldn't have won the trophies that it won over the past number of years. Which is conjecture rather than fact!

No.

Fact: they cheated.

Conjecture: they would have won anyway.

The first is punishable. The second is entirely irrelevant.

molloyjh

Pudsy33 wrote: »

https://www.saracens.com/club-statement-from-nigel-wray/

An interesting statement from Wray. I'd be half inclined to believe him, although it all seems so haphazard and reckless.

The whole "oops, I didnt realise that providing financial assistance to someone might count as salary or benefit-in-kind" defence is either total BS or a sign of someone who is incredibly naive in terms of how professional remuneration works. Given that hes a wealthy businessman I'd find the latter somewhat improbable.

Robbo

Pudsy33 wrote: »

https://www.saracens.com/club-statement-from-nigel-wray/

An interesting statement from Wray. I'd be half inclined to believe him, although it all seems so haphazard and reckless.

It's with true class that Wray casually drops that an ex player was "unable to meet the instalments due to personal circumstances". But lo! The legendary benevolence of Sun King Wray was deployed until he was bailed out by his new club.

Still, when you install a lawyer as a CEO, you might as well get your money's worth and keep him busy...

fitz

molloyjh wrote: »

The whole "oops, I didnt realise that providing financial assistance to someone might count as salary or benefit-in-kind" defence is either total BS or a sign of someone who is incredibly naive in terms of how professional remuneration works. Given that hes a wealthy businessman I'd find the latter somewhat improbable.

Can't see how this whole thing won't result in English tax authorities raising an eyebrow and scheduling audits...I expect them find this kind of explanation improbable too.

aloooof

2020Vision wrote: »

That argument is predicated on the assumption that a Saracens team playing within the salary cap wouldn't have won the trophies that it won over the past number of years. Which is conjecture rather than fact!

This is nonsense. It's not conjecture to suggest the salary cap breaches did give them an advantage. And that's all that matters.

Neil3030 above is spot on.

BonnieSituation

Zzippy wrote: »

You're not blocked? How is this possible??

I have, somehow, managed to always resist rage-tweeting him.

Magic I know!

thomond2006

2020Vision wrote: »

That argument is predicated on the assumption that a Saracens team playing within the salary cap wouldn't have won the trophies that it won over the past number of years. Which is conjecture rather than fact!

Shouldn't you be busy calling people dickheads on Twitter Jonesy?

It's quite reasonable to suggest Saracens success was helped by this. What starting players in recent years, retirements aside, have they been unable to re-sign?

prawnsambo

thomond2006 wrote: »

Shouldn't you be busy calling people dickheads on Twitter Jonesy?

It's quite reasonable to suggest Saracens success was helped by this. What starting players in recent years, retirements aside, have they been unable to re-sign?

This. Other clubs (like Harlequins) had to make the tough choice to offload a player after they won the Premiership because their values had gone up to the point that they couldn't pay them without breaching the cap. But somehow Saracens could keep their players on without any problems. And actually add a big name player from time to time. Won the double last year and somehow could afford Elliot Daly.

josip

The players would have been fully aware that these additional payments were in breach of regulations.
You'd have to be a complete thick to think otherwise.
I wonder what Eddie Jones will think of this and the players.
Whatever else, he's always struck me as being fairly principled.

Quin_Dub

fitz wrote: »

Can't see how this whole thing won't result in English tax authorities raising an eyebrow and scheduling audits...I expect them find this kind of explanation improbable too.

I'd be surprised if they weren't all tax compliant.

I remember a quote years ago from Jonathan Davies about before the game went pro saying "Thank God Inland Revenue didn't talk to the WRU, otherwise I'd have been out on my ear years ago". Despite Rubgy being amateur at the time he was recording all the "boot money" or appearance fees etc. with the Revenue.

Revenue don't care if your salary is above a threshold defined by a private entity , as long as you are paying your taxes they are happy.

That's not to say that somebody might not have been silly , but I'd doubt if there was anything actually "illegal" about the payments.

Neil3030

josip wrote: »

The players would have been fully aware that these additional payments were in breach of regulations.
You'd have to be a complete thick to think otherwise.
I wonder what Eddie Jones will think of this and the players.
Whatever else, he's always struck me as being fairly principled.

I'd say Jones may have pragmatically liked that the spine of his team were all playing together at the same club, tbh.

George, Mako, Kruis, Itoje, Billy and Faz, with Daly coming in.

Neil3030

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I'd be surprised if they weren't all tax compliant.

I remember a quote years ago from Jonathan Davies about before the game went pro saying "Thank God Inland Revenue didn't talk to the WRU, otherwise I'd have been out on my ear years ago". Despite Rubgy being amateur at the time he was recording all the "boot money" or appearance fees etc. with the Revenue.

Revenue don't care if your salary is above a threshold defined by a private entity , as long as you are paying your taxes they are happy.

That's not to say that somebody might not have been silly , but I'd doubt if there was anything actually "illegal" about the payments.

I'd even go as far as to say that if you're going to fiddle the salary cap (private entity, as you say), you make damn sure that you are air-tight with your taxes, to keep your financial affairs out of the public eye.

prawnsambo

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I'd be surprised if they weren't all tax compliant.

I remember a quote years ago from Jonathan Davies about before the game went pro saying "Thank God Inland Revenue didn't talk to the WRU, otherwise I'd have been out on my ear years ago". Despite Rubgy being amateur at the time he was recording all the "boot money" or appearance fees etc. with the Revenue.

Revenue don't care if your salary is above a threshold defined by a private entity , as long as you are paying your taxes they are happy.

That's not to say that somebody might not have been silly , but I'd doubt if there was anything actually "illegal" about the payments.

It depends on how the payments were classed for tax purposes. For example, three directors of Saracens bought a 30% share in Itoje's image rights company for approximately £1.6 million based on a valuation by PWC. The investigation also valued it independently and found that it was overvalued by £800k or thereabouts. They attributed that to salary. HMRC might be very interested in that situation.

Clegg

Disappointing to see a rugby writer other than Jones drinking the Saracens koolaid. He's saying Saracens were found to have broken the cap recklessly and non-deliberately, and therefore everything's ok. Purposefully, I think, missing the point of everything.

https://twitter.com/neilfissler/status/1220121957246668805?s=19

Waffletraktor

errlloyd wrote: »

If Saracens hadn't signed Liam Williams and Elliot Daly I'd probably see their position on this. They were mostly hurt by their own players increasing in value, it is slightly different to trying to buy the game.

But then they bought Daly and Williams.

I remember listening to bbc 5live back in 2017? when chiefs won the title. Tony Rowe remarked on having had a message of congradulations from Wray along the lines of well done, now your players will look for 20% more.

pickarooney

Waffletraktor wrote: »

I remember listening to bbc 5live back in 2017? when chiefs won the title. Tony Rowe remarked on having had a message of congradulations from Wray along the lines of well done, now your players will look for 20% more.

A player's value is only how much anyone is willing to pay him.