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Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,365 ✭✭✭✭ molloyjh


    RugbyPass (I know) reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

    https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

    It's RugbyPass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

    Didnt they break the other bits about players being let go etc ahead of time? I wouldnt normally trust them, but they were on the ball then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭ bilston


    If they've broken the cap again this season...which clearly they must have done...then this seems to be the obvious next step.

    That being the case they might as well throw everything at Europe.

    Imagine Saracens get relegated and the Premiership gets ring fenced...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭ bilston


    It's probably worth its own thread by now.

    RugbyPass reporting that Saracens could be set for automatic relegation after failing to reduce their salaries in time.

    https://amp.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue/?__twitter_impression=true

    Now this is Rugbypass who are quite clickbaity so let's see if more media run with this.

    Alisdair Eykyn (BT commentator) is tweeting about it this evening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    Stephen Jones is eerily quiet over the last couple of days other than his tweets slandering the SRU executives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    bilston wrote: »
    Alisdair Eykyn (BT commentator) is tweeting about it this evening.

    https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1217916534955429890?s=19


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,225 ✭✭✭✭ Venjur


    Wray did them no favours by showing zero contrition. He obviously is above abiding rules or has convinced himself that everyone is at the same thing.

    This would be massive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,365 ✭✭✭✭ molloyjh


    bilston wrote: »
    If they've broken the cap again this season...which clearly they must have done...then this seems to be the obvious next step.

    That being the case they might as well throw everything at Europe.

    Imagine Saracens get relegated and the Premiership gets ring fenced...

    I can't see how they could make a success of it tbh. Players heads couldnt possibly be in it. They'll be focusing on where they'll be playing their rugby next season and the environment in the club itself would be horrendous. People in the admin side etc will be losing their jobs over this. It's a sh!tshow that everyone will want to just get away from ASAP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    Venjur wrote: »
    Wray did them no favours by showing zero contrition. He obviously is above abiding rules or has convinced himself that everyone is at the same thing.

    This would be massive.

    Sure he can't be held accountable Venjur, he's not the chairman!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,365 ✭✭✭✭ molloyjh


    Venjur wrote: »
    Wray did them no favours by showing zero contrition. He obviously is above abiding rules or has convinced himself that everyone is at the same thing.

    This would be massive.

    First time flee the sinking ship too.

    Spare a thought for Stephen Jones in all of this. A thought consisting mainly of "Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!".


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    molloyjh wrote: »
    First time flee the sinking ship too.

    Spare a thought for Stephen Jones in all of this. A thought consisting mainly of "Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!".

    In hindsight Wray's departure suggested that worse was coming.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,219 ✭✭✭✭ Clegg


    I feel bad for some of the staff at Saracens who will no doubt be losing their jobs over this. But that's where it ends. Their Board and some coaching staff refused to show any contrition until a week ago when things were getting really serious. Remember this from Alex Sanderson.

    https://youtu.be/cr08vRue0kg


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black



    Two important parts to that:

    "The bosses of the top-flight clubs met at a Premiership Rugby board meeting in London on Tuesday.

    It was decided that unless Saracens could prove their compliance, they would face the unprecedented step of dropping into the second tier."

    And then also:

    "Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill."

    I think the last part is the most important, stating that even if they did cut players as they said it'll still count for this season.


  • Subscribers Posts: 36,219 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    It's weird.

    Ed Griffiths was on with will greenwood last week, and he firmly presented that the position of the rules was that saracens just had to show that they were compliant with the salary cap on June 30th.
    So in theory the figure could go over or under during the season, but you had to be below the total at the end of the season.

    By that article, either that's not the position of the rules.... Or there is big pressure from the other teams for sarries to show compliance right now.... And somehow that's within the rules as well.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    Plot twist - Sarries join the Pro14


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    It's weird.

    Ed Griffiths was on with will greenwood last week, and he firmly presented that the position of the rules was that saracens just had to show that they were compliant with the salary cap on June 30th.
    So in theory the figure could go over or under during the season, but you had to be below the total at the end of the season.

    By that article, either that's not the position of the rules.... Or there is big pressure from the other teams for sarries to show compliance right now.... And somehow that's within the rules as well.

    The review at the end of June is for showing the spend for the year, it doesn't matter if you offload players right at the end of the season, if you paid their salary for a portion of the season, they go against the cap. Same goes for any payoffs to cut people's contracts. Players are now 7 months into their contracts, so the clubs are pressuring for a review to be done for Saracens to show their books and see where they are now. Depending on the level of spending, there's a good chance they may have breached the £7 million cap already (in terms of they've already spent close to 7 million in wages).

    Clubs want actions taken, which is understandable. Sarries haven't made a single change since last season, so they want to force their hand and not allow them to just continue on the same as last season. There's little point in the likes of London Irish or Leicester or even Bath fighting furiously to avoid relegation, and potentially losing players who won't re-sign if they think the club is going to be relegated, if they're just going to let Sarries continue as is and face punishment at the end of the season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭ durkadurka



    "Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill."
    .

    This bit is huge. In normal businesses redundancy payments are considered below the line and not factored into earnings or profit calculations.
    So you can run a redundancy programme to lose a load of staff, pay them a fortune to leave but it doesn’t count towards your general profit line because it’s exceptional.

    I reckon they thought they could pay a load of guys a lump sum to go early and the payment wouldn’t count towards salary cap. If that door is closed then they need to take some fairly severe action now to hit the cap somehow.
    This is going to be very interesting to watch. Because with every passing week they are racking up salary payments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,307 ✭✭✭ Dave_The_Sheep


    I'll believe it when I see it.

    If it happens, it'll be glorious, but I really really doubt it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭ bilston


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Plot twist - Sarries join the Pro14

    You never know


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭ DelBoy Trotter


    durkadurka wrote: »
    I reckon they thought they could pay a load of guys a lump sum to go early and the payment wouldn’t count towards salary cap. If that door is closed then they need to take some fairly severe action now to hit the cap somehow.

    Yeah that’s what I was thinking too.

    Only salary’s of players who represented the club in this session count towards the cap. If I’m not mistaken, the ruling was given out right after the World Cup, meaning Saracens international players hadn’t played at that point of the season. If they had stopped some of them playing/let them change club, that could have gone a long way to staying under the salary cap


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭ awec


    durkadurka wrote: »
    This bit is huge. In normal businesses redundancy payments are considered below the line and not factored into earnings or profit calculations.
    So you can run a redundancy programme to lose a load of staff, pay them a fortune to leave but it doesn’t count towards your general profit line because it’s exceptional.

    I reckon they thought they could pay a load of guys a lump sum to go early and the payment wouldn’t count towards salary cap. If that door is closed then they need to take some fairly severe action now to hit the cap somehow.
    This is going to be very interesting to watch. Because with every passing week they are racking up salary payments.

    Hard to see how they can avoid having to pay people off.

    If that bit is true then their goose is cooked.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    awec wrote: »
    Hard to see how they can avoid having to pay people off.

    If that bit is true then their goose is cooked.

    Technically.... If they stopped paying players and cut their contracts and forced it through the legal route.....


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭ awec


    Technically.... If they stopped paying players and cut their contracts and forced it through the legal route.....

    They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

    The money is obviously there to pay them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭ DelBoy Trotter


    awec wrote: »
    They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

    The money is obviously there to pay them.

    Agreed. Employment law would back the players, so Saracens would lose out that way


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,307 ✭✭✭ Dave_The_Sheep


    awec wrote: »
    They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

    The money is obviously there to pay them.

    I presume he was more thinking it would take longer than the season to get through the legal case, leaving Saracen's in the clear on the date in June.

    No idea if that would be how it would work though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ Squidgy Black


    awec wrote: »
    They would surely lose any counter-suit from the players?

    The money is obviously there to pay them.

    They'd definitely lose the countersuit plus damages, but I was just thinking of ridiculous ways they could attempt to try and push the payoffs out of their salary spends for the year if they kicked it down the line. And as pointed out they'd be facing other reprimands for breaching employment law.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭ awec


    I think if they went down that route there's a fair chance that even if they avoided automatic relegation they'd end up relegated anyway. Morale would surely go through the floor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,016 ✭✭✭ Bridge93


    Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭ DelBoy Trotter


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

    This is my thinking on it seeing as only players who have represented that club this reason count towards the salary cap....
    Only salary’s of players who represented the club in this session count towards the cap. If I’m not mistaken, the ruling was given out right after the World Cup, meaning Saracens international players hadn’t played at that point of the season. If they had stopped some of them playing/let them change club, that could have gone a long way to staying under the salary cap


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,358 CMod ✭✭✭✭ awec


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Delighted if it’s true. But it’s strange. How did the PRL expect them to go below the cap in a season? Punished in October after the season began with points and money, then say they must be below the cap by the end of the season or relegation. Yet all salary or redundancies have to count? Seemed like it was impossible for sarries to avoid this if it’s true. Only themselves to blame but a strange way to structure the punishments

    By offloading some players and having other players take salary cuts.

    Obviously they weren't able to offload enough players (this would be difficult for higher earners, as they'd need to find a club willing to pay them the same money, and obviously this is hard if you're trying to stay within a cap), and players haven't agreed to wage cuts.


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