Foundation (Apple) [** SPOILERS **]

corkie

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/Why_the_Gods_Made_Wine

About Hari:-

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Seems strange they give him life in episode 3, only to possibly to kill him off again now. If a robot and not a clone, he wont drown.

Also the de-aging for flash back scenes wasn't great.

@VinLieger

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/Demerzel

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David S. Goyer, the show’s executive producer, confirmed in a Reddit AMA that Demerzel is R. Daneel Olivaw.[10] Originally, the production was not allowed to use the name due to the rights to the name being held by Fox. However, Goyer made a personal appeal to the head of Fox and it was agreed that the name could be used in a limited number of circumstances.[11]

So your theory about her is wrong.

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/foundation-season-2-hari-seldon-wife-plot-twist

Slydice

2.6: Wow..

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I'm not crying, you're crying!!😭😭😭

What a phenomenal introduction of a character and a devastating story.

Bereft

Ehm..

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I think other things happened in the episode. The new empress making her speech. Really great face acting by Terrence Mann, Brother Dusk, in his reaction to it.

Eh, the mentalics, I dunno. Maybe Gaal has to takeover and become for them something like what Hari is for Terminus. The kid she befriended might help her, I dunno.

Hmmm... I guess there's a maybe question of who the dude in the hat was that turned up before Yanna was taken away

and, of course, the great special effects of the space ships and planets.. you know.. just there because that's where they need to be.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929755#Comment_120929755

I see nobody has replied to this yet, so if it's still relevant to you...

The box is called the Prime Radiant. Think of it as a highly advanced version of a mathematician's blackboard in the movies, covered with formulae. It projects a visual representation of the mathematics, that's the "pattern" which you see with the various crises, branches and so on. If they were to zoom in many thousands of times, you would see that the 'pixels' are actually mathematical formulae. Remember, psychohistory is a mathematical assessment of probability. I don't recall that the prime radiant was ever properly explained in the show, but that's what it is. In the books it was really just a combination workspace and projector, that it was a complicated enough machine to contain a consciousness is a deviation for the Apple TV variant.

It was mentioned briefly in S2Ep 2, but the reason the radiant wasn't given to many people was that psychohistory is premised on natural actions. If people knew the maths, then they would be affected by their knowledge of the future and thus immediately undermining that maths. Again, it is a deviation for the show that one Psychohistorian (Gaal) was to be sent to Terminus with a Prime Radiant. In the books, there were no psychohistorians at all. (They were in the Second Foundation). The second foundation's job is to make changes to the mathematics to reflect real-universe deviations from the originally determined probabilities and to take actions which will keep The Plan unfolding as intended. This is, in effect, what Gaal/Hari/Salvor are doing with the "updates to the cube" which you observe.

I'll pass on the Hari respawn as I haven't gotten to an episode which explains it yet. The entire Hari arc is a deviation from the books, where he dies of old age at his desk on Trantor. (And married a historian, not a mathematician).

The Empire diverging from the Empire's plan, you are correct. You are also correct that the Empire didn't care about the Foundation until it started incorporating other planets, this matches with the books (though the details differ somewhat. In the show, the Empire thought the Foundation was destroyed, in the books, the Empire thought the Foundation was just a group of Encyclopaedists archiving knowledge somewhere safe and thus not worth worrying about). In both the book and the show, Bel Riose is sent to bring the expansionist foundation to a heel.

The Vault, which killed the warden (which I thought was overall a bit out of character) is not quite the same as the Prime Radiant, though apparently it does have the ability to hold Hari's consciousness which presumably has access to a radiant anyway. The purpose of it is really to reassure the Foundationers that they are on the correct course and to explain to them just what happened. In the books, the vault had no consciousness, it was just a chamber which played recordings Hari had made when he was alive. The recordings were on a timer. On one occasion, the recordings played when nobody was around, on another it was entirely incorrect. In the show, because the Vault contains Hari's consciousness, it can perform a slightly more interactive role in resolving the crisis, but the crisis itself and its resolution are still primarily brought about by the inevitability of psychohistory. The vault will only open for a crisis.

It is a kind of shrine to the Foundation, but not in the religious sense. More like The Alamo or the GPO. The religious aspect you see with the two Brothers is a mechanism the Foundation used to spread its influence, the Foundation itself (and even the Brothers) have faith in Psychohistory and Seldon as a science, but not in the deity context. The religious aspect was actually used in the books to solve the first crisis, but again, TV show deviations.

Hope that helps.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010359#Comment_121010359

Fantastic synopsis

corkie

@Manic Moran Again, it is a deviation for the show that one Psychohistorian (Gaal) was to be sent to Terminus with a Prime Radiant.

https://asimov.fandom.com/wiki/Gaal_Dornick

Male in the books and did have the Prime Radiant bequeathed to him.

After the exile, he carried the crisis tapes recorded by Hari Seldon to Terminus. He also oversaw the construction and installation of the Time Vault. Gaal Dornick became one of the key workers with Stettin Palver on Seldon's Plan, reporting directly to Seldon on its progress as they refined it. After Seldon's death, he moved to Terminus. Seldon's own version of the Prime Radiant was bequeathed to him and shipped after Seldon's death. Since no Prime Radiant appears later in the First Foundation, it is likely that Dornick did not stay permanently on Terminus.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121012739#Comment_121012739

I sit somewhat corrected, the gist is still valid. It is explicitly stated in the books that the Foundation operated without the aid of psychohistorians. To quote Trevize: "I am not a psychohistorian. Nor is any member of the Foundation government, nor any citizen of Terminus, nor any..." Indeed, during his appearance after the First Crisis, the recording of Seldon states: "The terms I use are at best mere approximations, but none of you is qualified to understand the true symbology of psychohistory". The best reading seems to be that Gaal was detached for the setting up of the colony (more importantly, the setting up of the Vault with Seldon's recordings), but only for that purpose and not to work there.

In Second Foundation, The Student explains the problems of the Foundation even knowing that the Plan can be guided and changed, let alone having anyone that can read it: "As long as they knew the existence of a Seldon Plan, without knowing any of the details thereof, they were confident but uncertain. They knew they would succeed, but didn't know when or how. There was, therefore, a continuous atmosphere of tension and strain - which was what Seldon desired. The First Foundation, in other words, could be counted upon to work at maximum potential. [...] But now, Speaker, they know [...] that an agency exists which watches their every step and will not let them fall. So they abandon their purposeful stride and allow themselves to be carried upon a litter. [...] And that very abandonment of effort; that growing inertia; that lapse into softness and into a decadent and hedonistic culture, means the ruin of the Plan."

When The Student hears that the First Foundation is trying to create psychologists (Defined in this context as experts in the application of psychohistory), "Then all is over. It is the basic incompatibility with the Plan".

There is a quote in one of the books, I can't seem to find it right now, where first Foundationers observe that the omission of psychohistorians in the creation of the Foundation, despite it being the core cause of the Foundation, must have been a deliberate decision. I think it's in "Second Foundation", but I'm not having much luck flipping through.

corkie

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/A_Necessary_Death

Don't know anymore where there going with this due to Deaths. Why have characters around just to kill them of unnecessarily?

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121026261#Comment_121026261

Ive been wondering this with a lot of shows recently and feel some writers and show runners are trying to recreate an air of uncertainty similar to what GoT had and are literally as you say just putting in characters so they can be pointlessly killed to initiate some kind of Ned Stark or red wedding shock value while missing the point that while sudden and unexpected those deaths were vital to the story while these side character deaths are not.

Slydice

2.7: This was so well done as an episode. The tech, the scenes, the space, the story, the dialogue.

Big battle coming up. Then that ending.

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Hmmmm. I mean like, the future can be changed so that's a maybe dead Salvor but... that ending was very abrupt.

I'm half guessing this will be Gaals excuse to take out that leader and assume leadership herself. Second Foundation sorted. Could be right at the start of the next episode in time to save Salvor. Or not. Dunno... but... that ending was very abrupt.

This show feels so fresh!

Slydice

The absolute look on empires face with the family stories! 😁🤣

PhiloCypher

This is up there with the ep where Cleon 13th walking the spiral as my favourite ep of the series, all the threads are beginning to come together and are all equally intriguing, which has always been the case.

VinLieger

I'm more and more disappointed with every episode by their portrayal of Demerzel now they've confirmed she is actually Daneel and as this season furthers I cannot see them having her do some kind of heel turn that brings her closer to her character in the books.

Brief_Lives

But Daneel is Derzel in the books, no?

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038268#Comment_121038268

Exactly and this season they've turned Demerzel/Daneel into a subservient simpering fvckbot which imo is a travesty vs who the character was in the books along with their motivations and ultimate goals. And before people make assumptions i don't care they gender swapped them its that they have reduced one of the most important and powerful figures from asmimovs books to having no real agency or motivations whatsoever beyond absolute service to empire which again imo is a travesty.

The only potential saving grace will be if its actually Demerzal who is the one deleting the cleon clones memories but again the motivation for doing so is what will really matter if this how it turns out.

PhiloCypher

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121038643#Comment_121038643

So what you're saying after all the moaning about Demarzel not having enough agency, is that you suspect it will turn out she has agency and is infact puppeteering Empire through assassination, memory deletion and seduction .

It's almost like the writers don't want reveal all their cards.

Note: Apparently ep 9 is a big Demerzal episode so her machinations and possibly her history will likely be a lot clearer after that .

irishguitarlad

Just started watching this recently and have finally caught up to where it is currently. It's a decent watch with some very good characters like Seldon, the 3 brother and Demerzel. For me personally what really brings it down is one of the main protagonists and that's Gaal. I'm not quite sure if its her character or the actor that plays her but I generally find myself flicking through my phone whenever she's on screen as I find her fierce annoying. Anyways, decent series so far 7/10

pixelburp

Hadn't realised I was 2 episodes behind, but caught episode 6; wasn't that gone on it for some reason I couldn't put a finger on, but getting Harry's backstory definitely redeemed it otherwise. Made the end moment all the more worrisome and if

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Indeed it was Harry dying, his last flashing before his eyes. Hopefully not, cos otherwise it was a waste of a good resurrection.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039094#Comment_121039094

No I'm saying her motivations matter and the way it looks right now is that if she is responsible for the memory deletions etc etc then her motivation for that is likely simply following the original orders of Cleon the 1st so she in reality has no agency at all.

R.Daneel in the books was 1 of 2 robots who overcame the 3 laws to create a zeroeth law for themselves to protect humanity above all, to go from a robot literally creating their own agency to the simpering patheticness of the shows demerzel is just sad to me, im still holding out hope the writers might save her from being as bad as she seems but i have less and less every episode.

pixelburp

Mods: ok. I think there's enough confusion and deviation in all the book talk. Not 100% sure how to rule on this but at a minimum I think book detail should be thrown behind some spoiler tags.

Comparisons and criticisms are relevant to the thread but also realise that no more than any other adaptation, plot points from books people haven't read would become spoilers in the TV show etc.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045437#Comment_121045437

Sorry to be clear the backstory I gave for Daneel is from the Robots books which chronologically are thousands of years prior to the foundation ones and from what ive read are not actually licensed for the show, I specifically didnt add any spoilers from the foundation series of books.

corkie

It would be very hard to spoil the show with the books content, because the show has varied so far from the source material!

nachouser

Yeah, the Robot stuff is just retcon city.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048416#Comment_121048416

Yes but someone who's watching the show may want to read the books for the first time...

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048729#Comment_121048729

Yes retcon'ed by Asimov into the 2 prequel novels written years later.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049086#Comment_121049086

Good point, I did use spoilers when mentioned here?

If anyone wants to read the novelettes, I post links earlier in thread here and here. (+ missing one here)

corkie

https://foundation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Last_Empress

Regarding the ending of last week, + spoilers for this episode: -

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So it was just a fake-out of having Salvor and 'Brother Constant' deaths?

So Demerzel is the puppet master of the clones and not the other way round.

"It appears that what is currently happening in Gaal and Salvor’s story takes place prior to what has been happening between Foundation and Empire. Wibbly wobbely time things."

~~ https://www.geekgirlauthority.com/foundation-recap-season-2-episode-8-the-last-empress/

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121048416#Comment_121048416

As Nody said: it's to be mindful that book spoilers still spoil the books, and the crossover isn't always obvious to those new to either medium. It'd be the same policy for any other adaptation, and is often the case, book information out behind spoiler tags.

Anyway, Episode 7 and definitely the season's high point so far. Even the Gail & Salvor side story has gained a little bite. All the various threads were gripping throughout, and great to see them overlap. The Day stuff came a little sudden but the seeds were there all the same.

My only gripe was

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That they killed off the physical Harry: why go to the trouble of a resurrection if nothing was done with it? If it was all just to show the hippy tribe as evil, that's a bit rubbish, and a lazy bit of writing.

Slydice

2.8: Oh, that was so good, this show is so fresh! So many stories on the go at the same time and they are all keeping my attention.

Not really sure what is going on with

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Demerzel. Maybe it could be AI controlling the Cleons all along. Maybe original Cleon is somewhere about the place. I dunno. Maybe when she says she protects Empire, she means herself. She could be about to sacrifice Day to wipe out Terminus .. though.. that doesn't feel right. Terminus was there in the future vision. Though.. future can be changed. Arg, so much!

The Mentalics!😯 Jumping body! Yes, that makes sense! Surprised she isn't more powerful though. I dunno. Still I'm half guessing Gaal will takeover her mind rather than it being the other way around. That Hari wanted Gaal to get her powers. Though Salvor to the rescue also seems a possibility, but what's she gonna do, kill the leader and then Gaal takes over maybe. Hmmm..

Ah it's all so much fresh feeling in the story.

Starting to get used to just being thrown a

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time shift. wierd.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061995#Comment_121061995

A time shift? Did I miss something?

This show definitely deserves a rewatch - feel I'm missing so much in a lot of the nuances of the story

Slydice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121062010#Comment_121062010

Well I think what I saw in this episode was..

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Salvor telling Hari on Terminus about Hober Mallow

Which Hari used to send out the message to bring Hober Mallow to him .. which included the burning of the warden played by Holt McCallany in episode 2 of this season

Brief_Lives

do we need spoilers? the thread title says, spoilers within.

So, when we saw Salvor die, she didn't actually die. what did I miss there?